I didn’t say there was no lag, I said there was no more lag. Not wading in anywhere although I did say I knew I was going to get nagged. If you look at the 2 posts they say exactly the same thing, don’t they. The engine brake is instant release and you can hear when things are locking up and release it, which you cannot do with air brakes as you cannot hear when they are locked. A company I used to work for over here lost 2 tractors to the winter roads this year, both jacknifes, and both drivers admitted to using the footbrake by mistake.
In order to qualify it further, we do have twin drive and we all have stacks. Hearing it here is a little easier than it would be there. But a Jake is loud enough, even on a properly silenced vehicle, to hear when the note changes.
As has been said, it is a personal choice, but you know some of the places I have taken trucks so you should see that I may have some idea. The teachers I had up north were real old hands and showed me well. Wheelnut summed it up best of all, I think.
Also, trailer swing and jacknife are often mixed up. Once the trailer is on its way around to see you it will push the unit sideways. I have had it happen recently in rain when I was coming out of the city and a set of lights changed a bit sharpish. The kerb stopped it coming too far around and the unit only skipped a bit. On a 4 wheeled unit I could have been in trouble.
Zetorpilot, I have no doubt it gets slippery in Finland, just as it does here. I suspect it may stay that way a mite longer here each year, and I think our temps are lower than Fin temps, aren’t they? Not picking, just curious. Just for you to compare, we generally get below -17 in early November and rarely see above freezing at all until April, then still get frost into May.
Besides all, this is a silly thing to be dusting up over on a thread where someone asked for winter driving tips.
bobthedog:
Zetorpilot, I have no doubt it gets slippery in Finland, just as it does here. I suspect it may stay that way a mite longer here each year, and I think our temps are lower than Fin temps, aren’t they? Not picking, just curious. Just for you to compare, we generally get below -17 in early November and rarely see above freezing at all until April, then still get frost into May.
Hi Bob
The worst here tends to be when the temperatures are +/- 2C. When it gets below -10C it is usually MUCH less slippery. As you know, it is impossible to generalise about slippery conditions, there are so many variables. I was specifically told by the guy who took me out for my check-ride when I joined the firm, to leave the exhaust brake off in slippery conditions. I’m a bit hesitant to give specific advice to the folks on here, as different vehicles have such different technology that what is appropriate for a 60 tonne Volvo w&d combo might be totally wrong for other vehicles and circumstances. As an aside, I’ve driven an artic here in the winter too a couple of times, and that was MUCH twichier and scarier than my w&d.
What kind of tyres do you use over there? Feel free to PM me if you like - maybe we shouldn’t hijack this thread any more?!
C-KAY I used to worry about snow and ice. Like you I went on to artics with only a couple of months summer driving in rigids. I heard some horrific tales of driving artics in winter, but common sense and the advice given above will see you through. good luck, I’m on holiday at the moment and I’m hoping they’ve fixed the night heater while I’ve been off. That by the way is called wishful thinking
For the young driver who wishes to know what to do in adverse weather conditions in an articulated vehicle,if you have read all the previous you are unlikely to be any the wiser.The reason the UK comes to a grinding halt as soon as the first snow flake falls will usually be because some nutter in a car likes to drive fast in snow or an artic has lost it’s grip,this is mainly due to the UK axle weights being too low and if unfortunately you are driving a 6x2 the problem is even worse and for this simple reason Europe has rejected a 6x2 configuration because it is too dangerous.Now how do you learn to cope in adverse weather conditions,well as a young driver you can start now.Assuming your vehicle will alllow you to operate the gearbox manually you can try travelling from point A to point B without using the brakes,the braking system on todays modern vehicle is unfortunately too efficient,before modern technology took over our braking system was something we applied at the end of the day,week or month and all slowing down was done using the gearbox.You also have to increase your forward vision of anticipation,read and assess what the other nutters are attempting and give where possible enough room for yourself to avoid.Should you have to shovel snow your number plate is a handy tool.And if you consider the going too dangerous,park it up,you’ll be a great guy if you get through but an absolute prat if you wreck it.Oh! and don’t rely on the professional driver in front he might just be clueless.
Armagedon:
For the young driver who wishes to know what to do in adverse weather conditions in an articulated vehicle,if you have read all the previous you are unlikely to be any the wiser.The reason the UK comes to a grinding halt as soon as the first snow flake falls will usually be because some nutter in a car likes to drive fast in snow or an artic has lost it’s grip,this is mainly due to the UK axle weights being too low and if unfortunately you are driving a 6x2 the problem is even worse and for this simple reason Europe has rejected a 6x2 configuration because it is too dangerous.Now how do you learn to cope in adverse weather conditions,well as a young driver you can start now.Assuming your vehicle will alllow you to operate the gearbox manually you can try travelling from point A to point B without using the brakes,the braking system on todays modern vehicle is unfortunately too efficient,before modern technology took over our braking system was something we applied at the end of the day,week or month and all slowing down was done using the gearbox.You also have to increase your forward vision of anticipation,read and assess what the other nutters are attempting and give where possible enough room for yourself to avoid.Should you have to shovel snow your number plate is a handy tool.And if you consider the going too dangerous,park it up,you’ll be a great guy if you get through but an absolute prat if you wreck it.Oh! and don’t rely on the professional driver in front he might just be clueless.
6x2 is widespread here in scandinavia - for both w&d and artics. In fact these far, far outnumber 4x2 or 6x4.
One of the reasons “the UK comes to a grinding halt as soon as the first snow flake falls” is that winter tyres aren’t used. They make an enormous difference; even the type without studs helps greatly.
I kind of agree and disagree with you about modern braking system technology - when it works, it works well but when it goes wrong… as an example my colleague’s trailer brakes locked up solid during light braking last week. That wouldn’t have been too healthy if it had happened during the winter
Using engine braking - ie the gearbox - opens up the same arguments as have been presented already on this thread, ie do you want to have braking effort spread over all axles, or just the drive axle?
Armagedon:
For the young driver who wishes to know what to do in adverse weather conditions in an articulated vehicle,if you have read all the previous you are unlikely to be any the wiser.The reason the UK comes to a grinding halt as soon as the first snow flake falls will usually be because some nutter in a car likes to drive fast in snow or an artic has lost it’s grip,this is mainly due to the UK axle weights being too low and if unfortunately you are driving a 6x2 the problem is even worse and for this simple reason Europe has rejected a 6x2 configuration because it is too dangerous.Now how do you learn to cope in adverse weather conditions,well as a young driver you can start now.Assuming your vehicle will alllow you to operate the gearbox manually you can try travelling from point A to point B without using the brakes,the braking system on todays modern vehicle is unfortunately too efficient,before modern technology took over our braking system was something we applied at the end of the day,week or month and all slowing down was done using the gearbox.You also have to increase your forward vision of anticipation,read and assess what the other nutters are attempting and give where possible enough room for yourself to avoid.Should you have to shovel snow your number plate is a handy tool.And if you consider the going too dangerous,park it up,you’ll be a great guy if you get through but an absolute prat if you wreck it.Oh! and don’t rely on the professional driver in front he might just be clueless.
6x2 is widespread here in scandinavia - for both w&d and artics. In fact these far, far outnumber 4x2 or 6x4.
One of the reasons “the UK comes to a grinding halt as soon as the first snow flake falls” is that winter tyres aren’t used. They make an enormous difference; even the type without studs helps greatly.
I kind of agree and disagree with you about modern braking system technology - when it works, it works well but when it goes wrong… as an example my colleague’s trailer brakes locked up solid during light braking last week. That wouldn’t have been too healthy if it had happened during the winter
Using engine braking - ie the gearbox - opens up the same arguments as have been presented already on this thread, ie do you want to have braking effort spread over all axles, or just the drive axle?
I also agree with the tyre choice. Just as we left the UK in January there was some bad (for the UK) ice and a bit of snow. I had a rented van from abroad with winter wheels on, its just normal to me, but a few cars who really do travel to close to other vehicles slid off on corners following me, but then again who would buy winter tyres for just a few days or weeks at most, I never did when I lived in the UK.
Zetorpilot I am quite sure that in Scandinavia you have great experience in driving on snow but here in the UK these past few years we have had very mild winters,’ the great global warning issue’ so drivers have lost the skills or never actually gained them.You use 6x2 I do wonder what your axle weight limit is and I am sure you will agree most of Europe continues at 4x2 which is also my preference despite having my collar felt for a drive axle overload on several occasions.And you will also agree during winter conditions ‘gently as you go’ works and the pressing of the brake pedal can be the beginning of great fun!!As for todays modern braking system well it is an excellent system,when set up right,which I admit is a fetish of mine to such an extent I sometimes wander around checking wheel heat and it is incredible how many units have very hot wheels when the trailer is cold.even found a petrol tanker once in that very condition did seem to upset the management when it appeared in the trade press but they sorted the braking out.Now Scania always had the best aid when it had a trailer brake in the cab,marvellous thing.As for studded tyres they cost and you may not have heard Britain and it’s industries are skat.
Lucy:
Better not to cause it in the first place by using an exhaust brake, eh Phil?
i wouldn’t expect that to be possible.
Downhill, slippery surface, slight curve, highish revs - exhaust brake enaged - unit slows - trailer don’t so starts to overtake the unit - have I got that about right Lucy
the slight curve is not a necessary factor. i had this scenario last year in aberdeen. going downhill using the exhaust brake to control my descent and the trailer started going which caused a car at the bottom of the hill to react by reversing back onto the roundabout and out of the way. the only thing i could do was hit the gas and pull out of it and i was lucky that nothing was on the roundabout in my path. there is no denying that. now i wont use the exhaust brake in wet or slippery conditions. i learned the hard way and i wouldnt recommend it
Armagedon:
Zetorpilot I am quite sure that in Scandinavia you have great experience in driving on snow but here in the UK these past few years we have had very mild winters,’ the great global warning issue’ so drivers have lost the skills or never actually gained them.You use 6x2 I do wonder what your axle weight limit is and I am sure you will agree most of Europe continues at 4x2 which is also my preference despite having my collar felt for a drive axle overload on several occasions.And you will also agree during winter conditions ‘gently as you go’ works and the pressing of the brake pedal can be the beginning of great fun!!As for todays modern braking system well it is an excellent system,when set up right,which I admit is a fetish of mine to such an extent I sometimes wander around checking wheel heat and it is incredible how many units have very hot wheels when the trailer is cold.even found a petrol tanker once in that very condition did seem to upset the management when it appeared in the trade press but they sorted the braking out.Now Scania always had the best aid when it had a trailer brake in the cab,marvellous thing.As for studded tyres they cost and you may not have heard Britain and it’s industries are skat.
Hi Armagedon
My axle weights are (from the front) 8t, 10t, 8t, then on the trailer 9t, 9t, 10t, 10t.
I agree that more weight helps - I’ve found that if it’s very slippery a bit more on the front axle helps getting round corners. Some firms here use studded tyres on the steering axle, but mine doesn’t. The folks driving on minor roads - farm c&d’s, logging trucks seem to use studded tyres more widely - we just use m&s winter pattern / compound.
My old volvo used to have the separate handle to use the trailer brakes independantly, but the new one doesn’t have that. I do wonder why they took it away, as in a real emergency it could have been another option to try to get things straightened out…
limeyphil:
if you use your exhaust brake/retarder you remain in the jacknife without the situation getting worse.
you need plenty of power to pull youself out of the [zb], but don’t floor it. don’t follow too closely to the vehicle in front. take it easy.
Never use your exhaust brake/retarder in slippery conditions, it’s the worse thing you can possibly do.
limeyphil:
if you use your exhaust brake/retarder you remain in the jacknife without the situation getting worse.
you need plenty of power to pull youself out of the [zb], but don’t floor it. don’t follow too closely to the vehicle in front. take it easy.
Never use your exhaust brake/retarder in slippery conditions, it’s the worse thing you can possibly do.
Tiger.
i have and didn’t cause any damage or kill anyone.
you may recall a previous thread, where my trailer locked up and started to come round on me. i accelorated out of it, however whenever i used the brakes it locked up, so i gently brought the speed down with the exhaust brake until i was slow enough to use the foot brake.
it is ridiculous to tell someone never to use the exhaust brake or retarder in wet/wintery/snowy conditions as every truck trailer and driver is different. the circumstances are always different.
in some circumstances a foot brake will be required, but other times it could be lethal. so when lucy said switch of the exhaust brake, i obviously thought, why? you might need it.
all these things are designed for our safety, so to advise someone to switch these things off is crazy.
try coming down snake pass in the winter with a full load of slate on without using your exhaust brake, just use your foot brake. the snow will melt because of the heat from your brakes, then you will have no brakes, ok you won’t jacknife because your trailer will be playing pin-ball with the dry stone walls.
Really? The drive axle on my 42 was 11.5 tonnes and was the same on my 62. Over here they are much lower. In the US they are just over 15 tonnes for a twin drive bogie, and in Canada they are 17 tonnes for a twin drive. That is 7.5 tonnes in the US and 8.5 in Canada…
Our steer axles are rated to around 5 tonnes…
Ckay. You need only do what you are comfortable with. Personally, I would prefer to ride the jake through the mountains than use the pedal. I use it all year round and wherever I am and it has kept me out of mischief on many occasions. On the winter roads it is all you use as the footbrake or spike will send the truck all over the place. That isn’t my imagination, it is simply the way it is.
Zetorpilot, I have BF Goodrich 444s on my drives and Bridgestone fronts. We leave the same tyres on all year and they last well. I think the set on C528 were going to be replaced when I left the company and they were on 460000 kms at the time.
So you got ■■■■■ tyres or should I say TIRES then Bobby boy, Michelins, that’s a real tyre, I’ve got XZAs on the front & XDN2s on the back, they managed to get me rolling again after coming to a stop (because of a 4wd SUV getting it sideways of course ) on a 7% grade in PA, it was just around freezing so it was that slippery wet snow, I was empty too, surprised me to be honest, thought I’d be in trouble, but it dug in & away I went. I’ve never had the front slide around either, low axle weight or not, but I like to think that’s more my superior wheelmanship than decent tyres
CKay, if you’re going to crash, try & get one of those Galaxys with the reflective stickers to cushion the blow for you, you might end up before the Comissioner, but you’ll never need to pay for your own beer again
Well, i had my first bit of fun in the ice today. No accidents, so all good
It wasn’t so bad here in Essex, but down in Ashford, the backroads were like ice rinks. I had a few moments where the unit wanted to kick out, but i just took it easy and all seemed ok. I loaded as much as i could on the front of the trailer, to try and get some weight on the drive axle’s, which i think was a sensible thing to do.
Now i just have to survive the snow when it comes…
Jakes/exhaust brakes are ok to use on snow but NOT on ice as they can lock the drive axles.
Best thing to do,if you can,is to relax.Don’t get all uptight and twitchy behind the wheel,be gentle with everything,steering,throttle brakes etc etc.Give yourself plenty of time,see the big picture and allow for other people mistakes,always try and leave yourself a way out should a situation occur.
Plenty of weight over the drive tyres will help,try and do any breaking in a straight line(before you enter a corner/curve),keep the wheels turning at all times(won’t slow down if the wheels are locked),and look at where you want to go.
If in doubt,put on the pajamas and pull the curtains.
