p.h is the most important figure.
Don’t dress up crap wages by adding night out money and other extras,you are all being mugged by bosses telling you that you can earn £600 p.w. Yes you can if you work the equivalent to 2 wks of a normal person and sleep in a metal box for 5 nights!
Wake up drivers please,you are having the ■■■■ took out of you!
TTX boy:
p.h is the most important figure.
Don’t dress up crap wages by adding night out money and other extras,you are all being mugged by bosses telling you that you can earn £600 p.w. Yes you can if you work the equivalent to 2 wks of a normal person and sleep in a metal box for 5 nights!Wake up drivers please,you are having the ■■■■ took out of you!
You say this, but how much should 1 hour of a driver be worth? And how would you justify the value?
I cannot dispute that Fordism worked, up until the point where other manufacturers caught up and overtook the leader, it was closely related to communism but also similar to the Quaker societies where the workers were “controlled nicely” and given a job.
Ford was successful in the beginning because he was good at turning unsuccessful ideas into good ones, but he also had a mass of backers from his humble beginnings. Fordism failed when globalisation took over according to the history books, the workers could no longer afford these things they built, the huge depression put paid to that. With globalism comes cheaper goods and bigger markets, all good for shareholders. With skills lost to other countries, they were able to improve on those products. North America became a huge R&D centre rather than a manufacturing centre, the typical American still buys cars from Hyundai, Honda and Toyota. Many North American cars are built from parts supplied from the far east and assembled in Mexico
Its an interesting discussion, someone mentioned once that the economy always moves to the East, so after China can we expect cars from Siberia, Alaska and West Africa
I’d say ‘Chinese’ cars from Africa would be a definite possibility. Much greasing of palms going on there.
Wheel Nut:
I cannot dispute that Fordism worked, up until the point where other manufacturers caught up and overtook the leader, it was closely related to communism but also similar to the Quaker societies where the workers were “controlled nicely” and given a job.Ford was successful in the beginning because he was good at turning unsuccessful ideas into good ones, but he also had a mass of backers from his humble beginnings. Fordism failed when globalisation took over according to the history books, the workers could no longer afford these things they built, the huge depression put paid to that. With globalism comes cheaper goods and bigger markets, all good for shareholders. With skills lost to other countries, they were able to improve on those products. North America became a huge R&D centre rather than a manufacturing centre, the typical American still buys cars from Hyundai, Honda and Toyota. Many North American cars are built from parts supplied from the far east and assembled in Mexico
Its an interesting discussion, someone mentioned once that the economy always moves to the East, so after China can we expect cars from Siberia, Alaska and West Africa
I don’t think that there can be any argument that Fordism ‘continued’ to work and was still working up to the point where it was deliberately ditched in favour of the retrograde idea of globalisation based on the lowest common denominator in terms of wage levels.Which actually took place under Thatcher’s and Reagan’s regimes not the depression.Which is effectively an economic system based on exploitation and virtual slavery by any other name.With the lose lose effect of also creating unemployment and high labour supply in those previously advanced economies in the west which ‘were’ run on the Fordist economic model.Thereby creating the perfect storm of lower income levels and resulting crash in economic growth added to an inevitable trade deficit.Hence the UK’s 12% economic growth in 1972 as opposed to the figure now which as far as I know is still flat lining at as close to zero as makes no difference. 
Which just leaves the question of Germany which seems to be cherry picking the advantages of both systems.Taken to it’s logical conclusion your idea would obviously be close down all of Germany’s manufacturing industry and transfer it to China or possibly even Vietnam or North Korea and the Sudan.In which case it would be interesting to see what ze Germans would think about that and wether the Chinese and East Africans are as good at engineering as the bankers would like to think they are. 
As for allowing our leaders to continue the scam maybe now would be a good time for those in the British and American forces to say that they will mutiny if ordered to get involved with the argument between the Russians and the Ukranians which is obviously all about the EU’s move to expand further east. 
All exploiting classes attempt to morally justify their class rule by portraying them, as the highest, most natural form of social development, deliberately concealing the system of exploitation by disguising and distorting the truth. The present day capitalist class, through their professional hirelings and hangers on, have elaborately evolved a whole new philosophy and morality to justify their ruling position in society.
The working class, on the contrary, has no material interest in distorting the truth, and sets itself the task of laying bare the realities of capitalism in order to consciously prepare for its emancipation. Far from seeking a special position for itself, the working class has the aim of abolishing capitalism and with it all class distinctions and privileges. To do so it must reject the outlook of the capitalists, and seek for itself a new Marxist method of understanding.
The Marxist method provides a richer, fuller, more comprehensive view of society and life in general, and clears away the veil of mysticism in understanding human and social development. Marxist philosophy explains that the driving force of history is neither “Great Men” nor the super-natural, but stems from the development of the productive forces (industry, science, technique, etc.) themselves. It is economics, in the last analysis, that determines the conditions of life, the habits and consciousness of human beings.
Each new re-organisation of society–be it slavery, feudalism or capitalism–has ushered in an enormous development of the productive forces which in turn gave men and women greater powers over nature. As soon as a social system proves unable to develop these forces of production, then that society enters an epoch of revolution. However, in the case of the change from capitalism to socialism, the process is not automatic but requires the conscious intervention of the working class to carry through this task of history. Failure to do so in the long run would pave the way for the advent of reaction and eventual world war.
Capitalism has once again entered a new world economic crisis resulting in mass unemployment on the lines of the 1930s. The quack theories of capitalist economists have proved utterly incapable of preventing recessions, which has driven the ruling class to ditch Keynesianism and re-adopt the old measures of “sound finance”, of monetarism. Rather than rescue the situation this latter programme has served to deepen and prolong the crisis!
The current situation is that “reorganisation”. people feel left without a sound philosophy to administer and live by, again and again let down by the so called political elite.
miketaurus:
All exploiting classes attempt to morally justify their class rule by portraying them, as the highest, most natural form of social development, deliberately concealing the system of exploitation by disguising and distorting the truth. The present day capitalist class, through their professional hirelings and hangers on, have elaborately evolved a whole new philosophy and morality to justify their ruling position in society.The working class, on the contrary, has no material interest in distorting the truth, and sets itself the task of laying bare the realities of capitalism in order to consciously prepare for its emancipation. Far from seeking a special position for itself, the working class has the aim of abolishing capitalism and with it all class distinctions and privileges. To do so it must reject the outlook of the capitalists, and seek for itself a new Marxist method of understanding.
The Marxist method provides a richer, fuller, more comprehensive view of society and life in general, and clears away the veil of mysticism in understanding human and social development. Marxist philosophy explains that the driving force of history is neither “Great Men” nor the super-natural, but stems from the development of the productive forces (industry, science, technique, etc.) themselves. It is economics, in the last analysis, that determines the conditions of life, the habits and consciousness of human beings.
Each new re-organisation of society–be it slavery, feudalism or capitalism–has ushered in an enormous development of the productive forces which in turn gave men and women greater powers over nature. As soon as a social system proves unable to develop these forces of production, then that society enters an epoch of revolution. However, in the case of the change from capitalism to socialism, the process is not automatic but requires the conscious intervention of the working class to carry through this task of history. Failure to do so in the long run would pave the way for the advent of reaction and eventual world war.
Capitalism has once again entered a new world economic crisis resulting in mass unemployment on the lines of the 1930s. The quack theories of capitalist economists have proved utterly incapable of preventing recessions, which has driven the ruling class to ditch Keynesianism and re-adopt the old measures of “sound finance”, of monetarism. Rather than rescue the situation this latter programme has served to deepen and prolong the crisis!
The current situation is that “reorganisation”. people feel left without a sound philosophy to administer and live by, again and again let down by the so called political elite.
To be fair Trotskyism isn’t exactly the saviour to the problems of the working class.Which just leaves the even worse systems of Stalinism and Maoism.Of which at least a modified version of the latter is now in control of the agenda using global free market capitalism to do it’s bidding.It’s not capitalism which is the problem.The problem is that Capitalism ditched the Fordist economic system in favour of selling the working class of the US and UK out to the Maoists.
Carryfast:
miketaurus:
.To be fair Trotskyism isn’t exactly the saviour to the problems of the working class.Which just leaves the even worse systems of Stalinism and Maoism.Of which at least a modified version of the latter is now in control of the agenda using global free market capitalism to do it’s bidding.It’s not capitalism which is the problem.The problem is that Capitalism ditched the Fordist economic system in favour of selling the working class of the US and UK out to the Maoists.
There is the problem. The older theories do not fit in the puzzle. It is glaringly obvious that working class children/young people are only educated to a level that excludes them from a higher potential and into the reserved classes.
It is an illusion to believe the system is fair in education. Business will choose from selected universities all other uni’s are ignored.
The tools to advance a change is through education and knowledge. The greatest element the Bourgeoisie need to supress.
To Edit-: The feminist movement are still challenging the fact that girls/women are still fighting for an equal education to men in some countries and as it is globalised it is 2014 so it is no accident.
At a DCPC this week we were told that the rates should go up this year due to a shortage of drivers.
Personally I don`t believe that to be the case.
There is serious shortage of quality carers for older people, the papers are full of adverts for carers. But you`ll notice that they are all offering no more than the minimum wage.
Ive not seen this so called supply and demand actually work where Ive been concerned!
I`m in constant demand, but I only get a “yeah, right”!! when I suggest a slightly higher rate. Its not going to happen guys.
We might not like it but, £8-£9 p/h is about what the jobs worth, unless its a specialised gig.
it is not my idea of Fordism turning into globalisation and in your political scrabble book you have to get in as many references to Thatcher as you can, look back at history, read about it from the university press. Fordism failed in the 1930’s luckily our factories got busy by building munitions and vehicles for the war effort. It boosted the American economy too plus the rest of the world were borrowing money from America to prop our own efforts up.
BMW are built in China. Complete Mercedes cars are built in India, Brazil, Mexico, China and Argentina and parts are sourced from all over the world. Audi, build in India, China, Indonesia and VAG are strong in Brazil, Mexico, Russia, China, India, Poland, and Indonesia.
I remember 1972, that is when the streets were full of ■■■■, we had a three day week and there were regular power cuts
cheekymonkey:
At a DCPC this week we were told that the rates should go up this year due to a shortage of drivers.Personally I don`t believe that to be the case.
There is serious shortage of quality carers for older people, the papers are full of adverts for carers. But you`ll notice that they are all offering no more than the minimum wage.
I
ve not seen this so called supply and demand actually work where Ive been concerned!
I`m in constant demand, but I only get a “yeah, right”!! when I suggest a slightly higher rate. Its not going to happen guys.
We might not like it but, £8-£9 p/h is about what the jobs worth, unless its a specialised gig.
Fair enough to a point but the carers are funded by social services which in turn are funded by the tax-payer and tax revenues are finite.
Drivers on the other hand are funded by businesses and if they have no drivers they have no business and their customers will be unable to move their goods, therefore a shortage of drivers is more likely to result in higher rates. I do find it staggering that people boast about their top line without considering how many hours they have to spend behind the wheel to get their 500-600 a week including bonuses etc., sod that… I quite like having a life.
Wheel Nut:
it is not my idea of Fordism turning into globalisation and in your political scrabble book you have to get in as many references to Thatcher as you can, look back at history, read about it from the university press. Fordism failed in the 1930’s luckily our factories got busy by building munitions and vehicles for the war effort. It boosted the American economy too plus the rest of the world were borrowing money from America to prop our own efforts up.BMW are built in China. Complete Mercedes cars are built in India, Brazil, Mexico, China and Argentina and parts are sourced from all over the world. Audi, build in India, China, Indonesia and VAG are strong in Brazil, Mexico, Russia, China, India, Poland, and Indonesia.
I remember 1972, that is when the streets were full of [zb], we had a three day week and there were regular power cuts
You seem to be getting your dates mixed up.Firstly the Wall Street Crash and resulting Great Depression was what happened when employers tried to forget about Fordism through the 1920’s therefore removing the spending power of workers in the economy.
The US economy of the 1960’s and the UK one of 1972 was what happened when they remembered it again and made it work even better.
The miners strike of 1973/4 and the winter of discontent in 1978/9 and the economy to date were/are all what happened/s when the employers chose to forget about Fordism again.There’s a a pattern there ‘if’ you want to see it.Instead of trying to re write history to prove that Thatcher and Reagan and all the other low wage economy supporters had got it right.
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
it is not my idea of Fordism turning into globalisation and in your political scrabble book you have to get in as many references to Thatcher as you can, look back at history, read about it from the university press. Fordism failed in the 1930’s luckily our factories got busy by building munitions and vehicles for the war effort. It boosted the American economy too plus the rest of the world were borrowing money from America to prop our own efforts up.BMW are built in China. Complete Mercedes cars are built in India, Brazil, Mexico, China and Argentina and parts are sourced from all over the world. Audi, build in India, China, Indonesia and VAG are strong in Brazil, Mexico, Russia, China, India, Poland, and Indonesia.
I remember 1972, that is when the streets were full of [zb], we had a three day week and there were regular power cuts
You seem to be getting your dates mixed up.Firstly the Wall Street Crash and resulting Great Depression was what happened when employers tried to forget about Fordism through the 1920’s therefore removing the spending power of workers in the economy.
The US economy of the 1960’s and the UK one of 1972 was what happened when they remembered it again and made it work even better.
The miners strike of 1973/4 and the winter of discontent in 1978/9 and the economy to date were/are all what happened/s when the employers chose to forget about Fordism again.There’s a a pattern there ‘if’ you want to see it.Instead of trying to re write history to prove that Thatcher and Reagan and all the other low wage economy supporters had got it right.
As I said, these are the news clippings of the day.
IN January 1972, I sat in The Times building in Blackfriars, a candle flickering on my typewriter the only source of illumination.
A national strike by coal miners had brought the nation to a virtual standstill, with mid-winter power cuts of up to nine hours a day.
Ironically, I was trying to report the very strike that had plunged our offices into darkness, a dispute that lasted seven weeks and reminded us just how much we relied on the miners.
Edward Heath’s Tory government imposed a three-day week on industry and commerce, to conserve stocks at power stations. No coal moved. It was a time of national crisis.
Crisis, what crisis?
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
it is not my idea of Fordism turning into globalisation and in your political scrabble book you have to get in as many references to Thatcher as you can, look back at history, read about it from the university press. Fordism failed in the 1930’s luckily our factories got busy by building munitions and vehicles for the war effort. It boosted the American economy too plus the rest of the world were borrowing money from America to prop our own efforts up.BMW are built in China. Complete Mercedes cars are built in India, Brazil, Mexico, China and Argentina and parts are sourced from all over the world. Audi, build in India, China, Indonesia and VAG are strong in Brazil, Mexico, Russia, China, India, Poland, and Indonesia.
I remember 1972, that is when the streets were full of [zb], we had a three day week and there were regular power cuts
You seem to be getting your dates mixed up.Firstly the Wall Street Crash and resulting Great Depression was what happened when employers tried to forget about Fordism through the 1920’s therefore removing the spending power of workers in the economy.
The US economy of the 1960’s and the UK one of 1972 was what happened when they remembered it again and made it work even better.
The miners strike of 1973/4 and the winter of discontent in 1978/9 and the economy to date were/are all what happened/s when the employers chose to forget about Fordism again.There’s a a pattern there ‘if’ you want to see it.Instead of trying to re write history to prove that Thatcher and Reagan and all the other low wage economy supporters had got it right.
As I said, these are the news clippings of the day.
IN January 1972, I sat in The Times building in Blackfriars, a candle flickering on my typewriter the only source of illumination.
A national strike by coal miners had brought the nation to a virtual standstill, with mid-winter power cuts of up to nine hours a day.
Ironically, I was trying to report the very strike that had plunged our offices into darkness, a dispute that lasted seven weeks and reminded us just how much we relied on the miners.
Edward Heath’s Tory government imposed a three-day week on industry and commerce, to conserve stocks at power stations. No coal moved. It was a time of national crisis.
Crisis, what crisis?
That’s the re written tory version of history obviously written in hindsight not at the actual time according to the title.
‘This’ is the real version and I can remember the candles and my father being sent home as part of the 3 day week and the argument he had with his employers when put back on full time again because he was making more money working on cars at home that needed to be finished than when he was ‘at work’. 
You’ll also notice that in addition to getting the dates right they’ve also got the reasons for the strike and the causes of inflation right. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week
Having said that the 1972 strike was yet another example of the government trying to control inflation by controlling wages which the miners easily won at the time and whatever controls the government put on industry during that strike they certainly didn’t apply to the same degree as they did in 1973/4 strike.
The relevant thing in all cases being the link between wage levels and economic growth.
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
Crisis, what crisis?
Callahan enjoyed his holiday though 
An issue to consider is that a lot of sacrifice (family’s going without food for weeks) has been made in the past to benefit workers in this country.
That is slowly being eroded. I doubt many younger colleagues will be able to understand that (That is not a slur on younger people))
I’m going to throw a spanner in the works here Chicane, you understand your value and try to demand a better rate, citing the laws of supply and demand, yet you get knocked back and the reason…
Supply and demand…
I’ve come off the road, now I run a small fleet, finding loads to go alongside our contracted work and the law of supply and demand is clearly at work here. If I call someone about a load I’ll get x amount for it, yet if they call me I always get more.
If the load to truck ratio is low, rates are on their arse, the shippers/brokers know this, it’s their job to, but if the load to truck ratio is high, they also know they need to get their load on a truck or the trucks will run out, so they’ll pay more to get it covered.
Most of this work is contracted, so they have the money there, they just keep more of it most of the time.
Savvy hauliers look at the load to truck ratio and use it to their advantage. It is what I do.
Word gets around though and a hot city soon gets flooded with trucks, so the rates come back down, so you have to look at what was a crap city to be in last week to know that it will become good next week as people have stopped taking loads there as they can’t get a load out. The hot cities are constantly changing because of this.
Being in the right place at the right time is important, but only because of the free for all, the money is there all the time, yet it’s only passed down the line when necessary. The same applies with wages, the haulier can charge more and pass it along, but only when their value increases.
Again, the rich keep getting richer 
newmercman:
I’m going to throw a spanner in the works here Chicane, you understand your value and try to demand a better rate, citing the laws of supply and demand, yet you get knocked back and the reason…Supply and demand…
I’ve come off the road, now I run a small fleet, finding loads to go alongside our contracted work and the law of supply and demand is clearly at work here. If I call someone about a load I’ll get x amount for it, yet if they call me I always get more.
If the load to truck ratio is low, rates are on their arse, the shippers/brokers know this, it’s their job to, but if the load to truck ratio is high, they also know they need to get their load on a truck or the trucks will run out, so they’ll pay more to get it covered.
Most of this work is contracted, so they have the money there, they just keep more of it most of the time.
Savvy hauliers look at the load to truck ratio and use it to their advantage. It is what I do.
Word gets around though and a hot city soon gets flooded with trucks, so the rates come back down, so you have to look at what was a crap city to be in last week to know that it will become good next week as people have stopped taking loads there as they can’t get a load out. The hot cities are constantly changing because of this.
Being in the right place at the right time is important, but only because of the free for all, the money is there all the time, yet it’s only passed down the line when necessary. The same applies with wages, the haulier can charge more and pass it along, but only when their value increases.
Again, the rich keep getting richer
Now imagine a world of US 1960’s levels of economic growth,as a result of strong unions creating an environment of rising wages throughout every sector of the economy,and which as a result every city is a ‘hot’ city all the time,together with the type of system in the road transport industry described here at 4.35-5.04.The result being that those hot cities just keep getting hotter and the drivers earn more because they’ve got the power to ask for it and get it.
I hear that, a good example of Fordism, there was not much in the way of exports from the US in those days, yet (or possibly because of that) the economy was thriving.
There was a huge feel good factor, although the war in Vietnam was dragging on, but industry was being propped up by the war, just as it had after WW2, with the building of the interstate network thanks to Eisenhower’s plan to link all the military bases together.
So when you look back on those times of prosperity, what was the catalyst?
War, which is what seems to drive America’s economy as it is one of the things they are very good at, computers are another, most of that comes from military use and filters down to retail, look at GPS and wireless communications, they all started off with a military application and then went mainstream, but apart from that, what else do they excel at?
newmercman:
I’m going to throw a spanner in the works here Chicane, you understand your value and try to demand a better rate, citing the laws of supply and demand, yet you get knocked back and the reason…Supply and demand…
I’ve come off the road, now I run a small fleet, finding loads to go alongside our contracted work and the law of supply and demand is clearly at work here. If I call someone about a load I’ll get x amount for it, yet if they call me I always get more.
If the load to truck ratio is low, rates are on their arse, the shippers/brokers know this, it’s their job to, but if the load to truck ratio is high, they also know they need to get their load on a truck or the trucks will run out, so they’ll pay more to get it covered.
Most of this work is contracted, so they have the money there, they just keep more of it most of the time.
Savvy hauliers look at the load to truck ratio and use it to their advantage. It is what I do.
Word gets around though and a hot city soon gets flooded with trucks, so the rates come back down, so you have to look at what was a crap city to be in last week to know that it will become good next week as people have stopped taking loads there as they can’t get a load out. The hot cities are constantly changing because of this.
Being in the right place at the right time is important, but only because of the free for all, the money is there all the time, yet it’s only passed down the line when necessary. The same applies with wages, the haulier can charge more and pass it along, but only when their value increases.
Again, the rich keep getting richer
Interesting take on things, I take my hat off to you, I had a very brief notion of going down the O.D. route but decided I have enough liabilities draining my cash. I run an Agri-contracting business so driving keeps the cash flow going during our quiet time setting rates is bloody difficult as every farmers son and their dog tends to borrow dad’s tractor and work for ‘beer money’. In the last couple of years contractors round here have decided enough is enough and either jacked it in or put their rates up to a more viable level, customers know the rate and can take it or leave it but they know that when they get us in they get a high quality job done. Getting the money in is another headache so the rule now is we don’t do work for them until the previous invoice is settled.
An example we had a lady ask us to do a paddock of haylage for her horses we suggested given the weather that it’d be cheaper (by £2.40 a bale) and better feed if it was done as hay but she insisted on haylage so that’s what we did, she moaned like hell about the price and said that would be the last time. Couple of weeks ago she phoned up to book us do do even more ground this coming season. There are jobs that simply aren’t worth taking on, sometimes its more cost effective to park the kit up, this is how I see driving, I don’t do it for charity. I really do think rates will rise after September due to the sheer number of both agency and company drivers hanging the keys up.
They way I see the increase in driver rates is this if you have 24 pallets on a trailer each containing 40 bags (1 tonne) of dog food that’s 960 bags, say you increase driver pay by £1/h and the round trip is from plant to delivery point is 8hrs, that equates to .83 of a penny/bag increase to the end user. Pallets of baked beans/crisps/cans of coke, its even less per unit…
Dear OP. If the money is that bad, go do something else