Colin Curtis, who was to become head of the Experimental Department at LT and was part of the design and prototype development team for the RM bus, had been an AEC apprentice. He writes about his time dealing IIRC with A21* series engines having sand-casting retention issues and getting his hands dirty dropping sumps to inspect crankshafts and rectify several each shift. Also about resolving overheating problems for the same engine with perspex windows to view coolant circulation.
gingerfold:
[zb]
anorak:
If the 500 and 800V8 engines had been reliable, we would not be discussing ways that the Group could have got out of the mire- Leyland, in the 1970s, would have had sufficient sales, and lower overheads, to give it control over a more optimistic future. The industrial relations issues would have been a blip, nothing more. The error was not building an engineering base, capable of doing those jobs properly, in the first place. The graduate recruitment campaign, in the 1970s, came two decades too late.Both AEC and Leyland had graduate training schemes in the 1930s. AEC had three entry levels for apprenticeships.
- Craft Apprenticeship for school leavers aged 14 (as the school leaving age was pre-WW2). Five years course
- Student Apprenticeship, for school leavers with higher education, typical entry age 16 or 17, further studies that could go as far as a Mechanical engineering degree.
- Graduate apprenticeship, for university graduates.
Leyland had its own Technical College which became Stokes Hall.
Ironically even the Craft apprentice could have told the Graduate apprentice that the 500 was at best a too small for the job impossible to maintain screamer.While the V8 was a badly designed lemon with a cooling system in which only one bank of cylinders was fed from the radiator and there were car engines with almost as much leverage at the crank.Contrary to anorak’s ideas elitism can work against a firm.Especially when it’s combined with a political and financial environment that’s bet on the foreign competition to win.
Triple post. Computer problem
cav551:
Colin Curtis, who was to become head of the Experimental Department at LT and was part of the design and prototype development team for the RM bus, had been an AEC apprentice. He writes about his time dealing IIRC with A21* series engines having sand-casting retention issues and getting his hands dirty dropping sumps to inspect crankshafts and rectify several each shift. Also about resolving overheating problems for the same engine with perspex windows to view coolant circulation.
Obviously inspection processes should have picked up casting sand retention, but AEC never had a foundry, pre-Leyland all AEC castings were bought in from Qualcast and Lye, so initial inspection should have been at the foundry. I have heard the AEC side to the perspex window saga, and it was nothing to do with over heating per se, it was a bona fide research exercise into coolant circulation using different water pump impellers. It was carried out at the instigation of LT because of where they wanted to site the radiator in the prototype RM. As you yourself have commented the LT engineering department and AEC sometimes had a rather strained relationship. The perspex window saga being but one such episode.
Triple Post
gingerfold:
[zb]
anorak:
If the 500 and 800V8 engines had been reliable, we would not be discussing ways that the Group could have got out of the mire- Leyland, in the 1970s, would have had sufficient sales, and lower overheads, to give it control over a more optimistic future. The industrial relations issues would have been a blip, nothing more. The error was not building an engineering base, capable of doing those jobs properly, in the first place. The graduate recruitment campaign, in the 1970s, came two decades too late.Both AEC and Leyland had graduate training schemes in the 1930s. AEC had three entry levels for apprenticeships.
- Craft Apprenticeship for school leavers aged 14 (as the school leaving age was pre-WW2). Five years course
- Student Apprenticeship, for school leavers with higher education, typical entry age 16 or 17, further studies that could go as far as a Mechanical engineering degree.
- Graduate apprenticeship, for university graduates.
Leyland had its own Technical College which became Stokes Hall.
I don’t reckon they had enough qualified professionals engaged on new products. The last time I looked (1990ish), R&D expenditure of Japanese automotive companies was about double that of GB ones. IIRC, Scania published its own figures around the same time, and they were roughly between the two. Imagine the scenario if the 500 and 800V8 had had about twice the development spending, and that investment had been ongoing for years prior to those projects starting.
Maybe the countries favourite politician Jeremy Corbyn didn’t help matters much.
Dave…
A line UP
I’ve just read Harold Woods history , an excellent short account packed with photos and adverts from the start of this company. The history is very limited but still worth a read but the author states that Woods were a very big AEC user but by 1965 they were getting disollusioned with them .Reliability problems were an issue mainly with the Ergo models but the biggest problem was not being able to communicate like they did with Southall. Something reading between the lines that Leyland had introduced. The jist of the story is that they weren’t getting the excellent service that they had been used to in the past and the quality wasn’t there anymore. Harold Woods started buying ERFs and the author has put an ERF advert that was being used at the time in showing an ERF in Woods colours with the slogan It serves you right , he states it could well have been a swipe at AEC
dave docwra:
Maybe the countries favourite politician Jeremy Corbyn didn’t help matters much.Dave…
Well perhaps there was a few of people worked there just like him & his unbelievable theories, In fact I think there must have been a lot, IMO It was unions & employees that wanted their wages for skiving, Im an old man in 80s, & I have worked hard all my life, Made a good living running a small family haulage firm, Plus when loading at the Docks, Well the dockers all union men cost me a lot off lost earnings, 
, Regards Larry.
Hi Larry as you know we were not involved too much with long distance haulage and so Had very little to do with likes of Liverpool dockers.
Back in the day and With hindsight do you think you would have been better off just coming home empty instead of waiting for 24/48 hours for a possible load that maybe would not pay too well either.
Tyneside
tyneside:
Hi Larry as you know we were not involved too much with long distance haulage and so Had very little to do with likes of Liverpool dockers.Back in the day and With hindsight do you think you would have been better off just coming home empty instead of waiting for 24/48 hours for a possible load that maybe would not pay too well either.
Tyneside
Hi Tyneside, Well it was delivering to the docks, Waiting all day & sometimes into the next to get tipped, Off course looking back to these old days one did it to earn a living, If I could turn the clock back I wouldnt have done it, Dockers must have have cost a lot of hauliers a lot of lost revenue in those days, R Soles the lot of them,Regards Larry.
Mainly because LSD (£££) Transport Group Ltd. stopped spec’ing their new Fodens with 680 Power Plus engines ! 
Bewick:
Mainly because LSD (£££) Transport Group Ltd. stopped spec’ing their new Fodens with 680 Power Plus engines !
Hi Dennis, I have done a lot of dock work in my day along with the lads that I employed, There was good money to be made in the 6o/70s When there was plenty of work about, But the Dockers were a different lot of blokes to the likes of you & me as hauliers They got paid regardless, If it rainend they sat in the dockers shelter, If it was windy they wouldnt load Silver Sand because it may have got into their eyes, But I bet they went out to their local boozer when it was raining, Like I said before They invented the words R.SOLES, Regards Larry. Stay safe my friend.
Lawrence Dunbar:
Bewick:
Mainly because LSD (£££) Transport Group Ltd. stopped spec’ing their new Fodens with 680 Power Plus engines !Hi Dennis, I have done a lot of dock work in my day along with the lads that I employed, There was good money to be made in the 6o/70s When there was plenty of work about, But the Dockers were a different lot of blokes to the likes of you & me as hauliers They got paid regardless, If it rainend they sat in the dockers shelter, If it was windy they wouldnt load Silver Sand because it may have got into their eyes, But I bet they went out to their local boozer when it was raining, Like I said before They invented the words R.SOLES, Regards Larry. Stay safe my friend.
My dad was of the same opinion as you Lawrence , he never liked going to Liverpool for the simple reason that they were always messed about and held up. Strikes were regular apparently. There was a documentary on the invention of the container an American haulier by all accounts and it led onto British docks and how the dockers were holding the countries importers/exporters to ransom and it was decided to build a brand new dock at Felixstowe. Liverpool , Hull and London dockers didn’t come out of it with any stripes
I f you look back to 1968 and see what British Leyland had at their disposal how on earth did they fail.AEC,Albion,GUY,Leyland and Scammell were all major players surely someone could have made it work
ramone:
I f you look back to 1968 and see what British Leyland had at their disposal how on earth did they fail.AEC,Albion,GUY,Leyland and Scammell were all major players surely someone could have made it work
Disgracefully managed,and too many fingers in the pie,typical for that era,self,self,self,although it has to be said,the unions tried to wreck it too!!
Rgds,
David
They didn’t build what the haulier and drivers wanted…Volvo’s and Scania’s…
Like the British motorbike industry… When the Japanese bikes started coming to the UK, they all laughed and said it wouldn’t last. Five years later they were almost all gone…
The British car industry…■■? do we have any left ?
The British Truck Industry…■■? we don’t have any left.
The British Ship building Industry… The British Fishing Fleet…
In fact what do we make now, as a once great manufacturing nation…■■ Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes, Banking, and where that’s got everyone… 
I read recently that Lord Stokes tried to kill off AEC as early as 1968 such was the divide between the 2 companies,it was a merger between the 2 in 1962 but Leyland always seemed to have the controlling hand
I always thought it was lack of investment,or was it the usual British thing that we do,which is invent something and then let someone else perfect it?,i.e tilting trains,motorbikes etc.