Why did British Leyland fail?

Ramone wrote; ‘Reading Windrush`s comments on the Marshalls they would probably have been better off with the Marshall Majors on quarry work , again this was a down rated version which puzzles me’

Not heard of those? Hopefully they had more power as everyone I have spoken to on Facebook etc has said that the Marshall’s went well on the level but on hills were poor. Everything they passed on the flat overtook them again when they reached a hill! :laughing: Did the Major have the larger engine then, Tilcon however would only ever have bought the cheapest most basic option of any truck though! :unamused:

Pete.

windrush:
Ramone wrote; ‘Reading Windrush`s comments on the Marshalls they would probably have been better off with the Marshall Majors on quarry work , again this was a down rated version which puzzles me’

Not heard of those? Hopefully they had more power as everyone I have spoken to on Facebook etc has said that the Marshall’s went well on the level but on hills were poor. Everything they passed on the flat overtook them again when they reached a hill! :laughing: Did the Major have the larger engine then, Tilcon however would only ever have bought the cheapest most basic option of any truck though! :unamused:

Pete.

Yes Pete the Marshall Majors had the AV760 but downrated for some strange reason . Why not leave the power as is

Is there much in what is to come Graham, about what the intentions were regarding transmissions which go into more detailed plans than already mentioned?

As far as I can see the group was simply awash with alternative transmissions, although by 1971 some dated back to the end of some models’ production. There was a Leyland heavy duty hub reduction axle and a light duty Albion based one, both in single drive and through drive versions. There was a special for the Reiver for the reversed direction input from the power divider. There was a Guy heavy duty hub reduction axle and a Maudslay one too. There was a Scammell epicyclic axle. There was an AEC spiral bevel unit and a Leyland one too. There was an AEC through drive axle with 3rd diff plus AEC and Leyland worm drive units as well. There were two AEC double reduction diffs of different design one supplied in a through drive version with 3rd diff, and there were specials for the Routemaster, for the Atlantean, another for the Bristol Lodekka and AFAIK yet another for the Fleetline.

AEC/Thorneycroft had the D203 in five and six speed form and a splitter version as well. AEC also had the D197 lighter weight version of a similar box again IIRC with splitter option. AEC had synchromesh four and five speed boxes as well as the SCG Monocontrol epicyclic box. Leyland had lightweight 6,7 and 10 speed boxes and the GB241(?) heavyweight six speed unit. Leyland also had a sychromesh 4 speed 'box. Bristol had a 4 speed and a 5 speed overdive box as well as a special for the Lodekka. Leyland had three epicyclic gearboxes, the SCG multispeed for teh two- pedal Beaver plus the pneumocyclic and hydracyclic versions of the basic 4 speed SCG unit, all in conventional layout and with right angle drive.

Apart from this lot proprietary transmission were bought in from various suppliers for the lighter weight models.

I’ve probably missed some! although I did discount the Oliver North Scammell gate change unit and the Albion heavy duty 'boxes which must have been long gone.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You’re quite right about all the different gearbox and drive axle variants the group was awash with, especially so in the medium weight class. Last night I was mentally listing the variants I experienced first hand, both with uncle’s small fleet from the 1950s, and right through to the T45 Roadtrain era in my Spillers years. And not forgetting the Eaton 2-speed axle option for the Comet / Super Comet ranges. From the 1950s until the time of this document I had experienced, either as a passenger or driver: -

Leyland Comet (Leyland square cab) O.375 engine, 5-speed Leyland 'box, Eaton 2-speed axle (the lorry that made me realize the quality of a Leyland lorry of that era)
Leyland Comet (LAD) 0.370, 5-speed Albion 'box, Eaton 2-speed
Leyland Super Comet (LAD), O.400, 6-speed Albion O/D 'box, Albion hub-reduction axle
Leyland Super Comet (Ergomatic), 401, 6-speed Albion O/D 'box, Albion hub-reduction axle
Plus the Seddons, 14/4/400,Leyland 0.400 engine, 6-speed Albion O/D box (Moss axle)
Plus the Scammell Handyman, Leyland 680 engine, AEC / Thornycroft 6-speed O/D 'box, Scammell axle.
Plus a bit later, Leyland Lynx, 500 engine, 6-speed O/D Albion 'box, Albion hub-reduction axle

AEC Mercury (PRV cab), AV470 engine, 5-speed synchro 'box, Maudslay single reduction axle. (The lorry that made me realize the quality of an AEC)
AEC Mercury (Tillotson cab), AV470 engine, 6-speed D197 O/D box, Maudslay single reduction axle
AEC Mercury (Ergomatic), rigids all 505’s, 6-speed D197 O/D 'box, Maudslay single-reduction axle
AEC Mercury (Ergomatic) artics, both 505s, one with D197 'box, one with 12-speed splitter version, both with Maudslay double reduction axles.
AEC Marshal 6x2 (Ergomatic), both 505s, one with D197 'box, one with 12-speed splitter, drive axles as the artics.
AEC Mandator (Ergomatic), AV760, D203 6-speed O/D 'box, AEC / Maudslay double reduction heavy duty axle
Plus the Seddons 30/4/690, AV690, D203 'box, one with a Moss axle (too weak for the 690, it broke half-shafts) one with a single speed Eaton ENV axle, and another of these axles replaced the Moss axle in the sister lorry.

In total there were 29 different Leylands and AECs (including the Scammell and Seddons with Leyland or AEC power) over a 13 years period up to 1971, and almost as many different specifications, so the customer was well catered for. No wonder there were spares supply issues.

Did AEC ever offer the 6 speed splitter in the AV760 Mandator Graham , I know they offered the propriety Fuller which must have improved the performance but I`m guessing not in big numbers would these have been a special order.

… continued

C. Manufacture of the Leyland lynx / Bison at AEC

Following this proposal AEC would cease to manufacture the current range of Mercury and Marshal models. In their place AEC will manufacture vehicles which are identical, with the Leyland Lynx and Bison powered by the Leyland 500 engine. This proposal could be implemented quickly - in less than a year’s time (see Exhibit 2 - Timing Chart).

The benefits of this action are: -

  1. It will maximize the penetration of 500 engined vehicles as quickly as possible instead of slowly increasing at the expense of the AEC 505.
  2. It enables the supply to be maintained by transferring production between the two plants as the orders for the other vehicles produced change.
  3. As it is principally an assembly operation the production can be easily transferred back to Leyland when other AEC volume is large enough.
  4. It will extend to AEC the rationalization proposed between Leyland and Albion.
  5. The major engine components can be brought from Leyland where there is adequate capacity.
  6. The engine components for which Leyland have not got spare capacity can be produced on the AEC GP plant, thus minimizing capital expenditure and charges in the AEC overhead recovery.
  7. The 500 engines used by AEC could be assembled and tested at AEC as they will have spare capacity in these areas.

It is recommended that AEC stop production of the Monarch, Mercury, and Marshal and the 505 engine. Subject to the studies mentioned below they should be replaced by the 500 engined Lynx and Bison range.

Leyland Truck and Bus wishes to rationalize production, and thus increase it, by rationalization, around the Lynx and Bison range. To do this they should have the maximum sales orders for this type of vehicle. Sales of Lynx and Bison models are only rising slowly and large increases can only be expected by introduction of new models, and by substitution for other Divisional models.

New models (e.g. the turbo-charged models) are being introduced which will gain new business but only partially substitute for other heavy Divisional vehicles.

The Lynx and Bison ranges are fully inter-changeable for the Mercury and Marshal - both marques compete in the same market sector, but the Lynx has the better specification.However, Leyland can only take this volume if AEC can build other models in sufficient volume. (Mercury / Marshal approximately 3,000 units per annum).

If the Mercury and Marshal stay in production they will continue to sell to established customers and thus partially prevent the concentration on the Lynx / Bison range. Neither of these alternatives are satisfactory. In the former case AEC will not, for the next three years, have sufficient volume, even allowing for possible Guy production, to lose all medium truck production. Note from my source of this document. “Legendary loyalty to AEC products by customers who would not buy the Lynx and Bison whilst the Mercury and Marshal was still in production. The powers at Leyland realized this and wanted to stop production of Mercury and Marshal to boost sales of the unreliable Lynx / Bison models”.

In the latter case the substitution of the 500 for the 505 engine will be delayed, money will have to be spent on the 505 engine plant and Leyland will not be able to take excess volume of medium chassis from AEC.

Thus it is recommended that: -

a) The 505 engine and Mercury / Marshal are phased out of production.
b) They are replaced by the Lynx / Bison built at AEC (subject to the following studies).
c) AEC’s output of Lynx / Bison purposely restricted to keep an economic volume, but expansion should be restricted to the heavy goods range. AEC heavy goods vehicles should be offered in preference to Leyland Freightline HG vehicles which would then cease production.
d) AEC will also drop the Reliance coach in favour of the Leyland Leopard. The Leopard has had more development (questionable) and gives a greater profit. This change would give approximately 8 vehicles weekly to Leyland, an increase of 70% over the present Leopard production. (The Reliance was outselling the Leopard)

To maintain 760 engine volume the 510 engine should not be offered at AEC, except as an option in Guy 32 tonners, although the first option remains open.

As the 505 engine is phased out at AEC then manufacture of the 760 and V8.801 will become increasingly uneconomic as many machine tools are common to all engine production. If possible the complete manufacture of all these engines should be undertaken at Leyland, with the aid of machinery shipped from AEC where applicable.

Capacity Limitations on the Lynx / Bison

Capacity restrictions exist on production of units for this range. To substitute for the present Mercury / Marshal range 60 to 70 vehicles per week will be produced.

A) Engine

Whereas the capacity of the major units on the transfer lines is 600 p.w. capacity on GP machining, assembly, and test is severely limited and at the present time could not meet the extra demand. AEC would, of course, have some redundant plant following the demise of the 505. Therefore it is suggested that, as a general rule, AEC buy those components from Leyland that are manufactured on special purpose plant and and those piece parts which require jigs and fixtures for manufacture on GP plant, (assuming capacity is available). As Leyland increase the number of special purpose machines the AEC content should be progressively reduced.

AEC should assemble and test the engine until Leyland has sufficient capacity to carry out these functions.

B) Rear Axles

The Lynx and Bison are fitted with Albion and Maudslay hub reduction axles but the Mercury / Marshal are fitted with Maudslay Mk. 1 single / double reduction axles.

To avoid supply problems from Albion and a reduction in volume at Maudslay, it is suggested that solo and coupled Maudslay Mk.2 axles are engineered into the Lynx and Bison in such a manner as to be directly interchangeable with the hub reduction axles.

The other production problem concerns the bogie suspension for the 6-wheelers.

The Marshal is fitted with either the balance beam 4-spring underslung suspension, or the AEC ‘A’ Type 2-spring bogie. The present Bison is fitted with the AEC ‘A’ bogie but the new 24-tonne design is to have the 4-spring Albion suspension to allow an 18-ton bogie weight. It is suggested, for a first stage, that the AEC built Bison uses the Albion 4-spring suspension only. When the proposed rationalized 4-spring and FPT6 2-spring suspensions become available these will be used.

C) Front Axles

The Mk.2 Lynx and Bison - using the SC40 frame - use the 8 ft. wide Alford and Adler rationalized axle. However, the present Mercury / Marshal has the Maudslay L240 series axle - a copy of the present 7’ 6" Alford and Adler design. Maudslay hope to make this new, wider design but no decisions have been made on manufacturing location.

to be continued

ramone:
Did AEC ever offer the 6 speed splitter in the AV760 Mandator Graham , I know they offered the propriety Fuller which must have improved the performance but I`m guessing not in big numbers would these have been a special order.

There was a 10-speed range change version of the D203 'box as an option for the Mandator, which was developed originally for the V8 Mandator

The last “chapter” of Gingerfold’s document gives a clue as to BL’s hopes for the AEC plants. Far from attempting to kill AEC off, their rationalisation plans were to install AEC as the heavy vehicle division, with Leyland doing buses and middle weight lorries. In other words, they were giving the Londoners the top job. Looking at the Group’s activities of the previous decade, it is fairly clear that that had been the hope all along, if you consider which of the new engines would fit in which maker’s chassis.

[zb]
anorak:
The last “chapter” of Gingerfold’s document gives a clue as to BL’s hopes for the AEC plants. Far from attempting to kill AEC off, their rationalisation plans were to install AEC as the heavy vehicle division, with Leyland doing buses and middle weight lorries. In other words, they were giving the Londoners the top job. Looking at the Group’s activities of the previous decade, it is fairly clear that that had been the hope all along, if you consider which of the new engines would fit in which maker’s chassis.

As I read it it seems to fit an agenda of deliberate sabotage and alienating the core customer base.Albeit in a way which was least noticeable to Leyland’s workforce and at Leyland HQ.As opposed to giving ‘Middx’ any supposed ‘top job’.Any ‘top job’ ‘down South’ at this point would have had to include Scammell and using its business plan by replacing the 760 with the choice of Rolls and ■■■■■■■■■■ at least a new TL13 upgrade and concentrating on development of the AEC Pete knock off to replace both the Crusader and the Marathon project.

With it being clear that replacing AEC’s lighter ranges with inferior Leyland products like the pathetic 500 engine also fits that agenda.Not to mention the ongoing fiasco going on between AEC and LT regarding the bus division in the form of loss of RM production.Leyland would have known at this point that this plan of sabotage was going to bring the whole truck and bus side of the Group to its knees v the foreign competition.

Carryfast:
…TL13 …

Where did this idea originate? It is daft. Why would they want to risk the structural integrity of a proven engine, for the sake of 8% more torque? The tooling cost alone- cranks, conn rods, crankcase, would prohibit such foolishness. What they did- bolt a turbocharger onto it- was the obvious thing to do. It was what the other makers had been doing for a decade.

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
…TL13 …

Where did this idea originate? It is daft. Why would they want to risk the structural integrity of a proven engine, for the sake of 8% more torque? The tooling cost alone- cranks, conn rods, crankcase, would prohibit such foolishness. What they did- bolt a turbocharger onto it- was the obvious thing to do. It was what the other makers had been doing for a decade.

Firstly it would have been the same ‘proven integrity’ of an effectively ‘different’ engine you know just the same logic as Triumph’s engineers were using regarding the very successful 2.5 upgrade.So a few changes to forge tooling by a few mm’s wasn’t exactly going to break the bank.While we’re obviously talking about bolting the same turbocharger to it.The difference being that we’ve now got the best of all worlds of AEC and Rolls design providing a baseline starting with more piston area combined with the stroke advantage of the Rolls.You know as well as I do ( and Volvo,DAF and ■■■■■■■ obviously did ) that’s going to ultimately provide us with more than just an 8% advantage over the TL12 at the end of the day in terms of its future development potential for the eventual T45 and that’s why it was never allowed to happen.

… the final installment

  1. Development of the 505 Engine

it is possible that the output of the 505 engine can be increased by development including turbo-charging. This action will not eliminate the immediate problem and must be looked on as a long term solution. In the long term this action does not comply with the Divisional Policy to develop the Leyland 500 engine.

The 505 production plant is in need of repair with a possible expenditure of £40,000.

This action is not recommended.

Further Studies

Outline approval to go ahead with the manufacture of the Lynx and Bison at AEC is required. Before a firm decision to go ahead is given the following studies should be carried out: -

  1. The AEC and Divisional cost, price, and profit effect of these proposals must be investigated.
  2. The timing of these changes must be established.
  3. Capacity study at Leyland and AEC to meet these proposals and what expenditure will be required.
  4. A study of suppliers’ capacity and additional expenditure.
  5. A study of the rear axle requirements, single / double reduction Maudslay units in solo / coupled form, plus hub reduction for the Lynx and Bison. Maudslay MHR axle in the Guy 32 tonners.
  6. The marketing implications, distributors’ spares stocks etc.
  7. Coupled with (6) a study of order control for Leyland and AEC.
  8. The engineering department at AEC will become short of work as Leyland will remain the design parents for the 500 engined vehicles. It is suggested that they become responsible for some of the details and testing of the FPT70 range.
  9. A study on the materials handling and transport requirement and their associated cost for these proposals.
  10. The future of passenger vehicle production at AEC must be studied.
  11. A passenger derivative of the Lynx will be required for export markets to replace the Mercury derived Ranger. Subject to AEC manufacturing the basic Lynx vehicle this work will be undertaken at Southall.

EXHIBIT 1. AN INDICATION OF THE PROPOSED VOLUME CHANGES. (All based on 1970 Production Figures).

AEC 1970/ 1972/73
Medium Trucks 2803/ 1789
Heavy Goods 2111/ 2929
Reliance / Regal 445/ nil
Other Bus 897/ 1220**
Guy Heavy Goods nil/ 1141
Total 6256/ 7079

Guy 1970/ 1972/73
Medium Trucks 1345/ nil
32 Ton Tractors 1141/ nil
Other Heavy Goods 68/ nil
Buses 316/ nil
Total 2870/nil

Leyland 1970/ 1972/73
Comet## 3938/ 4283
Lynx / Bison 796/ 2810
Heavy Goods 1750/ 1000
Leopard / Worldmaster 1075/ 1520
Other Bus 1007/ 1000
Total 8566/ 10613
** GF comments, don’t know what bus this was meant to be, there’s no mention of it in this document.
Comet## GF comments, this wasn’t the Comet / Super Comet familar in the UK, it was a basic third-world export model competing with Bedford. Some were also built at Albion, Scotstoun, which also built “our” Super Comets.
EXHIBIT 2. TIMING PLAN - AEC MODEL CHANGES AT SOUTHALL PLANT
End December 1971 - End of AEC Swift production
December 1971 - Start of run-down of AEC Mercury / Marshal production. Finish production Autumn 1972.
March 1972 - Start of run-down of AEC Reliance production. Finish Autumn 1972.
April 1972 - Start production of Guy 32-ton tractors. Phase out September 1973, cease production June 1974.
December 1972 - Start manufacturing Leyland Lynx / Bison range. Ongoing.
September 1973 - Start manufacturing FPT70 premium heavy goods range.
ENGINES: -
October 1971 - Start phasing out of 505.
December 1972 - Stop production of 505 and transfer 760 and V8 production to Leyland.
COMPLETED

gingerfold:
… the final installment

  1. Development of the 505 Engine

it is possible that the output of the 505 engine can be increased by development including turbo-charging. This action will not eliminate the immediate problem and must be looked on as a long term solution. In the long term this action does not comply with the Divisional Policy to develop the Leyland 500 engine.

The 505 production plant is in need of repair with a possible expenditure of £40,000.

This action is not recommended.

Further Studies

Outline approval to go ahead with the manufacture of the Lynx and Bison at AEC is required. Before a firm decision to go ahead is given the following studies should be carried out: -

The engineering department at AEC will become short of work as Leyland will remain the design parents for the 500 engined vehicles. It is suggested that they become responsible for some of the details and testing of the FPT70 range.

Do we have any evidence to support the idea that customers were crying out for replacement of the 505 with the Leyland 500 ?.As opposed to the expected how are we supposed to maintain and overhaul a motor that we can’t take the cylinder head/s off.Not to mention the unproven nature of the thing.Who gained from that other than the market for the lighter end imports like Volvo and DAF.

What is clear is that the words Run Down appear with monotonous and predictable regularity.First they came for AEC and all that probably because that was seen as the biggest threat to the foreign competition to start with.My guess is that the stopping of RM bus production was the first act in that hidden agenda all the rest being a diversion exercise. :bulb: :unamused:

This report shows just “how clued up” the Leyland management were regarding customers. They eventually got their way killing of all pure AEC production apart from the Reliance and ended up with just the Marathon until the T45 was launched and even that was transferred to Scammell and Guy at some point. It was like they couldnt see further than their own products pushing the headless wonder in place of the 505 , they started fitting the 760 (L12) into some Leylands trying to entice AEC customers to the Leyland ranks with very little success . Ive said this before , AEC never really updated any of the ergo range and I stand corrected but believe they were still fitting the old ratchet style handbrake to the Reliance until it went out of production. Could this have been a deliberate ploy to undermine AEC products in the hope their customers would move to Leyland . Think of it another way , what if AEC had been given a chance to improve their own products without the restraints of BL ( I dont think they were ever a fan of the ergo ) they were selling well without improvements what if they had updated them , and I dont mean spending millions just sensible adjustments. The group needed either splitting up or slimming down but the way they did it was very questionable

Morning Graham , it’s great that you’ve shared this report with us showing the thoughts and eventually the decisions the BL management made , what’s your take on it

ramone:
Morning Graham , it’s great that you’ve shared this report with us showing the thoughts and eventually the decisions the BL management made , what’s your take on it

Evening Paul. There’s no doubt that the entire Blue Line (Premium) ranges of Leyland Truck and Bus needed rationalization. By reading the document again, Leyland’s fixation, - obsession even, - with the fixed head 500 series engine was a seriously flawed policy. The concept should have been binned when it was discovered that the original design was for an engine that was too big to fit in any lorry chassis or under any cab and it had to be downsized. The Lynx and Bison ranges were never going to make any sales inroads against the Mercury and Marshal whilst they remained in production and competed on a level playing field. The AECs were becoming dated by the mid-1970s, but the A505 engine could have been turbo-charged for more power and other aspects of the range could have been modernized without excessive expenditure. The splitter 'box could have become the standard fitting in the Marshal and Mercury tractor unit.

The turbo-charged 500 engines, even if they had worked successfully, were never going to be powerful enough for a premium range tractor unit, so the 510 Buffalo was a fairly pointless lorry model. The potential of the A760 produced the TL12, which could have been the engine for a fleet spec new model with the easy build cab, or even the T45 cab when it came along. The T45 range should have been a high quality fleet spec range of 4, 6, 8 wheelers and a tractor unit. Powered by a turbo-charged development of the 505 in the 4 and 6 wheelers, and the TL12 in the tractor unit and 8 wheeler.

Guy and Scammell would have been a natural fit, both were assembly operations using proprietary components. Whilst they might not have had the necessary R&D resources to design from scratch a really new premium tractor unit, the resource was in the Division at AEC and Leyland. Guy / Scammell should have assembled the Division’s premium tractor unit using bought in components and the tall Berliet cab that AEC did look at using for the Marathon, but Leyland wouldn’t let AEC pursue that idea. Of course, the Division would ultimately have had to decide about designing and developing its own new engines, given that nowadays, and for the past 15 - 20 years the component truck in the UK and Europe fell out of fashion.

The headless wonder engine and the models it powered cost Leyland a fortune. Engine tooling costs and a new production plant, high manufacturing failure rates, endless and expensive warranty claims, lost customer confidence in the product, and goodwill. All that money was wasted when it could have been put to better use. The solutions for new, improved, and better models were hiding in plain sight throughout Truck and Bus Division if the 500 engine had never been conceived.

As for the the gist of the document, which plants should be closed or stay open? If, in another universe, the above had happened then Leyland could have been the bus building plant, - no need for a new bus plant at Workington. Southall could have built the T45 range, and as both Guy and Scammell worked from cramped, outdated plants, a new Guy / Scammell facility, say in the Midlands, could have built the premium tractor, heavy haulage tractors, special military vehicles, and other specials such as the Dumptruk.

Added. Having visited the DAF plant at Leyland in the recent past its output of vehicles can be in the region of 60 per day, dependent upon what the mix of chassis is for that day’s build. This production is achieved in a factory only a fraction of the size of Leyland or Southall, for a far larger output than Leyland or AEC ever achieved. Of course, DAF at Leyland is purely an assembly operation, and the factory was built by Leyland for the T45, so something of the Leyland Truck and Bus Division does still exist. More’s the pity that the name on the trucks is DAF, fine vehicles that they are (I run 23 of them). It would be preferable if they were Leyland, AEC, Albion, Guy or Scammell.

If only…

Way too sensible Graham , the BL management would never have given in to AEC they were too pigheaded but each division had its own merits and they should have played on their strengths not insist on Leyland being the centre of the universe and everything created there being superior

If the 500 and 800V8 engines had been reliable, we would not be discussing ways that the Group could have got out of the mire- Leyland, in the 1970s, would have had sufficient sales, and lower overheads, to give it control over a more optimistic future. The industrial relations issues would have been a blip, nothing more. The error was not building an engineering base, capable of doing those jobs properly, in the first place. The graduate recruitment campaign, in the 1970s, came two decades too late.

[zb]
anorak:
If the 500 and 800V8 engines had been reliable, we would not be discussing ways that the Group could have got out of the mire- Leyland, in the 1970s, would have had sufficient sales, and lower overheads, to give it control over a more optimistic future. The industrial relations issues would have been a blip, nothing more. The error was not building an engineering base, capable of doing those jobs properly, in the first place. The graduate recruitment campaign, in the 1970s, came two decades too late.

Not sure other parts of the vehicles would have stood up the cabs were out of date by 1973 and Leylands attitude of arrogance towards customers was never going to work

[zb]
anorak:
If the 500 and 800V8 engines had been reliable, we would not be discussing ways that the Group could have got out of the mire- Leyland, in the 1970s, would have had sufficient sales, and lower overheads, to give it control over a more optimistic future. The industrial relations issues would have been a blip, nothing more. The error was not building an engineering base, capable of doing those jobs properly, in the first place. The graduate recruitment campaign, in the 1970s, came two decades too late.

Both AEC and Leyland had graduate training schemes in the 1930s. AEC had three entry levels for apprenticeships.

  1. Craft Apprenticeship for school leavers aged 14 (as the school leaving age was pre-WW2). Five years course
  2. Student Apprenticeship, for school leavers with higher education, typical entry age 16 or 17, further studies that could go as far as a Mechanical engineering degree.
  3. Graduate apprenticeship, for university graduates.

Leyland had its own Technical College which became Stokes Hall.