Why can't we have a vote - out with deal or no deal?

Mazzer2:

Franglais:
Edit to say @ Mazzer.
Interesting as an aside maybe. If they and us have been going about it the wrong way, what next asked Mr Humphreys?
His suggestion: we ignore the two previous years of negotiations, and get all 28 countries to agree a new mutually beneficial arrangement.
Whether he is right or wrong about the correct or wrongful method of negotiations: we are, where we are.
.
Wonder why he said nowt, or nobody reported his thoughts until now?
Not suggesting a conspiracy, by the way!..
bet someone does though.
:wink:

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I agree we are where we are, the UK has been badly let down by the incompetence of it’s negotiators who would struggle to barter a discount from an Turkish carpet seller.

As to the rules you would have thought that the first thing to have done in the negotiations would have been to read the rule book :bulb:

Totally agree with all of that.
Unless of course the contributor on R4 was mistaken, and all is proceeding according to the rules.

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Franglais:
Why would we want to join an authoritarian regime?
Dunno? You tell me. I wouldn’t want to.
Sweet F.A. to do with our discussion of the EU after all.
.
As I said, yes, Greenland voted to leave the EC.
.
You’re correct, I think, the Denmark referendum concerned the Justice system only.
My error, of course Denmark is still in the EU.
.
I never mentioned France, Eire or The Netherlands, and don’t know why you are?
.
Difficult to give reasons to join the EU, since we’re already in it??
Are you talking of some hypothetical world where we still have an Empire or summat?
.
I don’t think I’m twisting much here.
Please explain more clearly what I’m doing wrong to justify that accusation.
I fully accept my error on Denmark.
I was clear that it was the EC that Greenland left, and by giving the date it is obvious that the EU didn’t exist then.

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Careful Franglais, no spoilers. The Daily Mail/Express crew still believe in that.

dexxy57:

Franglais:
Why would we want to join an authoritarian regime?
Dunno? You tell me. I wouldn’t want to.
Sweet F.A. to do with our discussion of the EU after all.
.
As I said, yes, Greenland voted to leave the EC.
.
You’re correct, I think, the Denmark referendum concerned the Justice system only.
My error, of course Denmark is still in the EU.
.
I never mentioned France, Eire or The Netherlands, and don’t know why you are?
.
Difficult to give reasons to join the EU, since we’re already in it??
Are you talking of some hypothetical world where we still have an Empire or summat?
.
I don’t think I’m twisting much here.
Please explain more clearly what I’m doing wrong to justify that accusation.
I fully accept my error on Denmark.
I was clear that it was the EC that Greenland left, and by giving the date it is obvious that the EU didn’t exist then.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

Careful Franglais, no spoilers. The Daily Mail/Express crew still believe in that.

Just like they believe in “trickle down” economics? How cutting taxes improves our lives? How a working man who is saving a few tens of quid on tax but having to pay hundreds for private health is “empowered”!
Yeah, you’re right. So long as they only get their news and views from rags owne…
Sorry. Rant abandoned.
.
.
Resumed.
And some of them seem proud they limit their sources of information!
Looking at some of the links put up here, sometimes mak…
.
Abondoned.

Franglais:

dexxy57:

Franglais:
Why would we want to join an authoritarian regime?
Dunno? You tell me. I wouldn’t want to.
Sweet F.A. to do with our discussion of the EU after all.
.
As I said, yes, Greenland voted to leave the EC.
.
You’re correct, I think, the Denmark referendum concerned the Justice system only.
My error, of course Denmark is still in the EU.
.
I never mentioned France, Eire or The Netherlands, and don’t know why you are?
.
Difficult to give reasons to join the EU, since we’re already in it??
Are you talking of some hypothetical world where we still have an Empire or summat?
.
I don’t think I’m twisting much here.
Please explain more clearly what I’m doing wrong to justify that accusation.
I fully accept my error on Denmark.
I was clear that it was the EC that Greenland left, and by giving the date it is obvious that the EU didn’t exist then.

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

Careful Franglais, no spoilers. The Daily Mail/Express crew still believe in that.

Just like they believe in “trickle down” economics? How cutting taxes improves our lives? How a working man who is saving a few tens of quid on tax but having to pay hundreds for private health is “empowered”!
Yeah, you’re right. So long as they only get their news and views from rags owne…
Sorry. Rant abandoned.
.
.
Resumed.
And some of them seem proud they limit their sources of information!
Looking at some of the links put up here, sometimes mak…
.
Abondoned.

No, c’mon finish your point . . .

No fair enough, it’s the old ‘brick wall’, ‘heads’ scenario.

Franglais, let me tell you this. I’m told old in the tooth to play silly buggers belief based ping pong with you. My previous experience was to mark political essays, not engage in this sort of nonsense. That has annoyed some people as they think it elitist, but it is what it is. So, as you can’t even tell me why we would want to give up British sovereignty for any benefits under authoritarianism that you can’t explain, let me leave it with this.

Politics is a strange creature and not everyone sees the world in the same way. It’s why a country such as N. Korea has the word ‘democratic’ in its title, which wouldn’t be democratic to us. As we enter extreme polarized politics, the definitions often change.

In Britain we see democracy as, ‘one man one vote’ or ‘a majority win’, but believers, or fanatics if you like, don’t see democracy in the same way. For them the cause and the end result is more important than how they get there. Just as Asians are susceptible to communism because of an ingrained cultural hierarchal system, it’s no coincidence that Europe produced the ideologies of Nazism and communism and now the EU – they all contain an elitist power structure.

‘Keep on voting until they get it right’, or second referendums, or treaties brought in by stealth are not the British idea of democracy and it’s very difficult to argue that it is when even the EU organization itself admits it’s not. In other words, what majority Europe see as democratic is authoritarian using British definitions.

All authoritarian regimes concentrate on a belief of what could be and not on the reality of what is. In trying to dissolve borders and create ‘Europeans’, the EU is no different from the previous attempts to socially engineer the perfect ‘Soviet man’, or an ‘Aryan race.’ Just as the Nazis and Soviet authoritarians tried to control their satellite countries, it too failed in the same way as the EU will eventually fail, or as the Soviet dissident Bukovsky stated on the EU: ‘I have lived in your future and it didn’t work.’ I’ll include his short video again for others, because he give an explanation of comparisons between what the EU is and what the Soviet Union was.

The English had a civil war to remove absolutism and produced a parliamentary system, the Europeans didn’t, but what Brexit exposed is the continuing elitism behind politics, in which the elite have again become more powerful than those they represent. So, it’s really a matter of how individuals perceive democracy and which is more important, the idea of keeping British democracy, or the EU project? Which of these European projects during the 20th century have ever succeeded? Why would the EU fashioned on the same power structure be any different? The danger now is that Britain abandons its former arms-length distance and throws in its lot with Europe and this time we eventually all collapse together.

I give links, videos and explain, basic easy to understand information that I intentionally keep simple, but it’s up to anyone to accept the reality of what the EU is, or continue to believe. Now you can say it’s all lies, nothing is true, it’s all right wing, but the Brexit referendum and the collapse of the main British political parties showed that the majority already know. You may continue to believe. :slight_smile:

Franglais:
Why would we want to join an authoritarian regime?
Dunno? You tell me. I wouldn’t want to.
Sweet F.A. to do with our discussion of the EU after all.
.
As I said, yes, Greenland voted to leave the EC.
.
You’re correct, I think, the Denmark referendum concerned the Justice system only.
My error, of course Denmark is still in the EU.
.
I never mentioned France, Eire or The Netherlands, and don’t know why you are?
.
Difficult to give reasons to join the EU, since we’re already in it??
Are you talking of some hypothetical world where we still have an Empire or summat?
.
I don’t think I’m twisting much here.
Please explain more clearly what I’m doing wrong to justify that accusation.
I fully accept my error on Denmark.
I was clear that it was the EC that Greenland left, and by giving the date it is obvious that the EU didn’t exist then.

You say that you wouldn’t want to live in an authoritarian regime.But at the same time you’re pushing for what is a clear extension of German Federalism across Europe in which people like son of a ■■■■ Juncker think they have the right to impose policy.

On what were and still should be sovereign independent Nation States which control their own democratic destiny beholding to no other rule or foreign mandate.However as we know you certainly do want the authoritarianism and the unaccountable mandate of EU rule just so long as you think that it wants and intends to impose all the type of zb that you personally agree with. :unamused:

Grandpa:
what Brexit exposed is the continuing elitism behind politics, in which the elite have again become more powerful than those they represent. So, it’s really a matter of how individuals perceive democracy and which is more important, the idea of keeping British democracy, or the EU project? Which of these European projects during the 20th century have ever succeeded? Why would the EU fashioned on the same power structure be any different? The danger now is that Britain abandons its former arms-length distance and throws in its lot with Europe and this time we eventually all collapse together.

I give links, videos and explain, basic easy to understand information that I intentionally keep simple, but it’s up to anyone to accept the reality of what the EU is, or continue to believe. Now you can say it’s all lies, nothing is true, it’s all right wing, but the Brexit referendum and the collapse of the main British political parties showed that the majority already know. You may continue to believe. :slight_smile:

To put it simply the Americans want a Federal Europe created in the USA’s image and what we’ll get is a just a bigger version of the former Yugoslavia.Bearing in mind that,unlike Yugoslavia,the US also had its own war of Federal aggression but the State militias lost.

On that note all of your ( correct ) assumptions,of unaccountable elites,hijacking the government process,were also stated by the US anti Federalists.When the original constitution,based on a Confederation of Sovereign States,was hijacked.

Oh for heaven’s sake Carryfast, go back to sleep! I’m anti-EU, not pro. American Trump doesn’t want to see a Federalist Europe, he’s totally against it.

Grandpa:
Oh for heaven’s sake Carryfast, go back to sleep! I’m anti-EU, not pro. American Trump doesn’t want to see a Federalist Europe, he’s totally against it.

Of course he’s against a United Europe.
‘Divide and conquer’ applies in economic as much as in martial affairs. Trump isn’t that keen on decentralisation of the US economy or political system is he?

Grandpa:
Oh for heaven’s sake Carryfast, go back to sleep! I’m anti-EU, not pro. American Trump doesn’t want to see a Federalist Europe, he’s totally against it.

Where did I say you were pro EU ?. :confused:

The fact is if Trump was supposedly ‘totally against’ a Federal Europe all he’d need to do is to revoke US recognition of the EU.From its right to designate trade policies.To its right to designate National borders ( such as that between Eire and UK ) as its own.Or at the very least withdraw US recognition of Britain’s EU membership.

Your blind inability,to see the laughable oxymoron,in the President of the US Federation,supposedly supporting secession and a Nationalist/Confederal Europe.Is as bad as missing the point that voting the country out of existence should be illegal just as the Queen providing Royal Assent to the European Communities Act.Oh wait you don’t even think that the European Communities Act was/is the same thing as tying us to the EU.

On that note there’s no way that Trump can possibly support secession in Europe without compromising his own position as head of the US Federal State nor the cohesion of that Federal behemoth itself.Especially when states like Texas shout why not us too and he and the CIA know it. :unamused:

Franglais:

Grandpa:
Oh for heaven’s sake Carryfast, go back to sleep! I’m anti-EU, not pro. American Trump doesn’t want to see a Federalist Europe, he’s totally against it.

Of course he’s against a United Europe.
‘Divide and conquer’ applies in economic as much as in martial affairs. Trump isn’t that keen on decentralisation of the US economy or political system is he?

BS.You know as well as Trump knows that the US Federal system is totally onside with the EU project since its first inception.Nor could it possibly be otherwise without compromising itself.Which explains why Trump ( and Farage ) have talked a good fight while delivering nothing.IE all part of the problem and the Machiavellian diversion exercise not the solution.All on the basis that America wants a Federal Europe created in its own image.