Grandpa:
Why would Farge vote for EU decisions?
My stats come from the Internet, the same as yours do. They’re different from yours because I was talking about food, not agricultural products.
Undemocratic? Look it up as democratic deficit, or democratic deficiency. When you find out pretend you didn’t and move onto something else.
Vote whichever way you like. Brexit will happen and eventually the EU will collapse just like all the other ‘projects’ before it. I’ve had my say, I don’t do belief based debates.
Apparently you do.
No Dexxy, I use facts.
So here it is again, Brexit the documentary. It’s not propaganda, it’s a factual account of what the EU is. People don’t go to the lengths of making something like this if it’s based on factual errors which can be disproved. For those undecided make your own mind up, even if you just watch the first ten minutes.
‘It was devised to make sure the great mass of people could not control government, ever again.’
You want to know how the European political elite really see Britain? Here it is, a quick five minute summary from a BBC documentary that followed May’s attempts to do her deals.
But OK, you then give me facts why we should stay in, or if they’re opinions explain them.
Grandpa:
Why would Farge vote for EU decisions?
My stats come from the Internet, the same as yours do. They’re different from yours because I was talking about food, not agricultural products.
Undemocratic? Look it up as democratic deficit, or democratic deficiency. When you find out pretend you didn’t and move onto something else.
Vote whichever way you like. Brexit will happen and eventually the EU will collapse just like all the other ‘projects’ before it. I’ve had my say, I don’t do belief based debates.
Apparently you do.
No Dexxy, I use facts.
So here it is again, Brexit the documentary. It’s not propaganda, it’s a factual account of what the EU is. People don’t go to the lengths of making something like this if it’s based on factual errors which can be disproved. For those undecided make your own mind up, even if you just watch the first ten minutes.
‘It was devised to make sure the great mass of people could not control government, ever again.’
You want to know how the European political elite really see Britain? Here it is, a quick five minute summary from a BBC documentary that followed May’s attempts to do her deals.
But OK, you then give me facts why we should stay in, or if they’re opinions explain them.
So Guy Verhofstadt thinks the UK Gov is running around like a headless chicken? When he sees Mrs May on TV dance into the stage and start speeling out nonsense, he groans and swears? The EU negotiators think our negotiators are rubbish?
Yeah, sounds about right to me.
No false, lying, two faced, stuff here is there?
Good link Grandpa. Thanks.
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That first link is a repeat of one you’ve already posted, by the way.
Nowt new on the propaganda front recently then?
Back on the Exit With/Without Deal track:
Did anyone see the thingy last Sept by Jacob Rees Mogg and Economists For Free Trade?
The Guardian’s reporter did a nice piece on it. Starts by pointing out that it’s misnamed, since there is only one economist present…
Mr JRM is an eloquent speaker isn’t he? He tells us that economists and their predictions are nonsense then introduces his own economist, and his predictions. Does he model himself after George Orwell’s dystopian ideas of “doublespeak”?
Anyway the single economist there was Patrick Minford* who reckons the UK would do well in a post Brexit WTO world. The country as a whole would be OK, but we would have no car production and our farming would be devastated, but overall we would be better off.
Don’t take my word for it. Look it up yourselves, wherever you want. Read his whole report or any analyses you want. (Be a little wary though of very short pieces which only give one view)
Wholesale deregulation, dropping of standards, and it’s Wacky Races all the way to the bottom!
This is a report JRM says is IN FAVOUR of WTO, incredible.
Now, on Feb 2019 Prof Minfiord says that a Deal between the UK and the EU is “common sense”. YouTube shows the man himself saying it.
There you are Grandpa.
Destruction of industry and farming from those who favour a No Deal Brexit. They think that’s a price worth paying! The only economist JRM and other Brexiteers could find now says a deal is “common sense”.
*Yes, Mrs Thatcher, poll tax, same guy.
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Anyone want another opinion rather than Prof Minford? There was that open letter from the 175 UK based economists, and a dozen Nobel Laureates wasn’t there?
They seemed to think losing factories and agriculture and other possible effects might be a rather bad thing.
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Two points of view there? How to balance them?
Hmmm. I’ve made my mind up on this one now.
I didn’t think you could put forward coherent reasons to remain and replied with distractions and questions, but that’s not entirely your fault as there aren’t any that would be worth giving up our nation state and democracy for. That’s why Brexit happened.
Let me have a go then …
Reasons to remain. Six of the best.
Nigel Farage is a right-winger.
All reasons to leave are propaganda.
We won’t need to accept the Euro, or have to obey third-world immigration quotas like everyone else.
The EU political elite will lose their privileges and perks.
We fought WW2 to get rid of authoritarianism, but we love it really.
That’s aside from if we don’t remain we’ll starve to death, the ice caps will melt, the black plague will return …
Grandpa:
I didn’t think you could put forward coherent reasons to remain and replied with distractions and questions, but that’s not entirely your fault as there aren’t any that would be worth giving up our nation state and democracy for. That’s why Brexit happened.
Let me have a go then …
Reasons to remain. Six of the best.
Nigel Farage is a right-winger.
All reasons to leave are propaganda.
We won’t need to accept the Euro, or have to obey third-world immigration quotas like everyone else.
The EU political elite will lose their privileges and perks.
We fought WW2 to get rid of authoritarianism, but we love it really.
That’s aside from if we don’t remain we’ll starve to death, the ice caps will melt, the black plague will return …
You just can’t drag yourself away from this ‘Belief Based Debate’ can you.
Grandpa:
I didn’t think you could put forward coherent reasons to remain and replied with distractions and questions, but that’s not entirely your fault as there aren’t any that would be worth giving up our nation state and democracy for. That’s why Brexit happened.
Let me have a go then …
Reasons to remain. Six of the best.
Nigel Farage is a right-winger.
All reasons to leave are propaganda.
We won’t need to accept the Euro, or have to obey third-world immigration quotas like everyone else.
The EU political elite will lose their privileges and perks.
We fought WW2 to get rid of authoritarianism, but we love it really.
That’s aside from if we don’t remain we’ll starve to death, the ice caps will melt, the black plague will return …
You just can’t drag yourself away from this ‘Belief Based Debate’ can you.
No, I’m afraid not. There are beliefs based on opinions and then there are facts. I don’t do Alice in Wonderland. If I said the average hourly rate for a trucker in the UK is £18ph, would you debate that, or just give me some facts? If you can’t even give me factual reasons to remain in the EU, why would I accept your beliefs?
Grandpa:
No, I’m afraid not. There are beliefs based on opinions and then there are facts. I don’t do Alice in Wonderland. If I said the average hourly rate for a trucker in the UK is £18ph, would you debate that, or just give me some facts? If you can’t even give me factual reasons to remain in the EU, why would I accept your beliefs?
Yes, I understand that. So about these figures about food exports you gave us, Franglais is disputing them. One of you must be wrong.
Or is it the case in economics and statistics that figures are allowed a little ‘flexibility’. In which case they’re hardly facts are they?
Are your figures correct Grandpa? Can we accept them with nailed down certainty?
Grandpa:
No, I’m afraid not. There are beliefs based on opinions and then there are facts. I don’t do Alice in Wonderland. If I said the average hourly rate for a trucker in the UK is £18ph, would you debate that, or just give me some facts? If you can’t even give me factual reasons to remain in the EU, why would I accept your beliefs?
Yes, I understand that. So about these figures about food exports you gave us, Franglais is disputing them. One of you must be wrong.
Or is it the case in economics and statistics that figures are allowed a little ‘flexibility’. In which case they’re hardly facts are they?
Are your figures correct Grandpa? Can we accept them with nailed down certainty?
No certainly not. Don’t accept my figures, go and do some research yourself. Look at the links I’ve given, watch the documentaries … and if you decide the EU is where it’s at and democracy isn’t for you, then that’s fine. But if you’re going to vote for something and can’t even explain what it is you’re voting for perhaps you should have a rethink? The reason you’re now able to vote in or out is because of British democracy, not the EU. Once you vote remain you’ll never get that democratic choice again.
Grandpa:
No certainly not. Don’t accept my figures, go and do some research yourself. Look at the links I’ve given, watch the documentaries … and if you decide the EU is where it’s at and democracy isn’t for you, then that’s fine. But if you’re going to vote for something and can’t even explain what it is you’re voting for perhaps you should have a rethink? The reason you’re now able to vote in or out is because of British democracy, not the EU. Once you vote remain you’ll never get that democratic choice again.
Is that a fact? Is that a genuine ‘fact’?
Sounds more like a belief or an opinion to me.
Grandpa:
No certainly not. Don’t accept my figures, go and do some research yourself. Look at the links I’ve given, watch the documentaries … and if you decide the EU is where it’s at and democracy isn’t for you, then that’s fine. But if you’re going to vote for something and can’t even explain what it is you’re voting for perhaps you should have a rethink? The reason you’re now able to vote in or out is because of British democracy, not the EU. Once you vote remain you’ll never get that democratic choice again.
Is that a fact? Is that a genuine ‘fact’?
Sounds more like a belief or an opinion to me.
These authoritarian regimes that spring up are not democratic. Once you vote in, you’re in for good. Just like the Soviet Union satellites, no one ever gets a referendum to leave. You can vote for people to represent you, but you can’t vote the system out and neither can those who represent you. It’s not a fact? Name me one EU country that has been allowed to have a referendum to leave once they voted in.
So far Britain has been allowed opt out clauses and concessions in return for signing treaties. A remain vote means an end to all that. The EU doesn’t do ‘special member’ status for its full members.
Grandpa:
No certainly not. Don’t accept my figures, go and do some research yourself. Look at the links I’ve given, watch the documentaries … and if you decide the EU is where it’s at and democracy isn’t for you, then that’s fine. But if you’re going to vote for something and can’t even explain what it is you’re voting for perhaps you should have a rethink? The reason you’re now able to vote in or out is because of British democracy, not the EU. Once you vote remain you’ll never get that democratic choice again.
Is that a fact? Is that a genuine ‘fact’?
Sounds more like a belief or an opinion to me.
These authoritarian regimes that spring up are not democratic. Once you vote in, you’re in for good. Just like the Soviet Union satellites, no one ever gets a referendum to leave. You can vote for people to represent you, but you can’t vote the system out and neither can those who represent you. It’s not a fact? Name me one EU country that has been allowed to have a referendum to leave once they voted in.
So far Britain has been allowed opt out clauses and concessions in return for signing treaties. A remain vote means an end to all that. The EU doesn’t do ‘special member’ status for its full members.
Authoritarian regimes are not democratic?
Self evidently true, surely?
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EU countries allowed a leave referendum?
The UK for one.
Greenland voted to leave the then EC in 1984.
The Danes voted by 57% to remain in 2015.
Have any others been refused one? Have any others even asked for one?
Difficult to get one refused if it’s not asked for isn’t it?
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The EU doesn’t do special status?
Good. Nice to hear you recognise that it’s a level playing field for all.
Grandpa:
No certainly not. Don’t accept my figures, go and do some research yourself. Look at the links I’ve given, watch the documentaries … and if you decide the EU is where it’s at and democracy isn’t for you, then that’s fine. But if you’re going to vote for something and can’t even explain what it is you’re voting for perhaps you should have a rethink? The reason you’re now able to vote in or out is because of British democracy, not the EU. Once you vote remain you’ll never get that democratic choice again.
To put it simply they like Federalism because they perceive it as a way of getting the type of policies that they want without the need for an electoral mandate.Which includes laughable gerrymandering to the point of two Italian Communist votes are worth more than one Brit vote in deciding Brit laws and policies.
As for us being able to vote out.Not so long as the Head of State will incriminate herself by reversing her previous assent to the European Communities Act etc.In addition to the fact that the EU obviously works on the principle of imposing Federal rule by stealth.Which actually in this case means that the illusion of the right to secede isn’t the same thing as the right to secede.Let alone the fact that we are only in this illegal undeclared foreign Federal pile,because the establishment has managed to fool the population,that it’s ok to vote the country out of existence.Obviously including Farage.
Franglais:
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EU countries allowed a leave referendum?
The UK for one.
Greenland voted to leave the then EC in 1984.
The Danes voted by 57% to remain in 2015.
Have any others been refused one? Have any others even asked for one?
Difficult to get one refused if it’s not asked for isn’t it?
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The EU doesn’t do special status?
Good. Nice to hear you recognise that it’s a level playing field for all.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It also doesn’t abide by it’s own rules, interesting item on the Today programme this morning from a diplomat about how the EU is breaking it’s own rules as regards the implementation of Article 50. Granted if the UK had a more savvy negotiating team then this would have been picked up and acted upon, but the rules clearly state that there is to be no phased negotiation and all areas are to be discussed simultaneously. So perhaps the only special status is for itself!
Franglais:
.
EU countries allowed a leave referendum?
The UK for one.
Greenland voted to leave the then EC in 1984.
The Danes voted by 57% to remain in 2015.
Have any others been refused one? Have any others even asked for one?
Difficult to get one refused if it’s not asked for isn’t it?
.
The EU doesn’t do special status?
Good. Nice to hear you recognise that it’s a level playing field for all.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It also doesn’t abide by it’s own rules, interesting item on the Today programme this morning from a diplomat about how the EU is breaking it’s own rules as regards the implementation of Article 50. Granted if the UK had a more savvy negotiating team then this would have been picked up and acted upon, but the rules clearly state that there is to be no phased negotiation and all areas are to be discussed simultaneously. So perhaps the only special status is for itself!
I missed my fix of Today, today.
I’ll get it up now.
Franglais:
.
EU countries allowed a leave referendum?
The UK for one.
Greenland voted to leave the then EC in 1984.
The Danes voted by 57% to remain in 2015.
Have any others been refused one? Have any others even asked for one?
Difficult to get one refused if it’s not asked for isn’t it?
.
The EU doesn’t do special status?
Good. Nice to hear you recognise that it’s a level playing field for all.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
It also doesn’t abide by it’s own rules, interesting item on the Today programme this morning from a diplomat about how the EU is breaking it’s own rules as regards the implementation of Article 50. Granted if the UK had a more savvy negotiating team then this would have been picked up and acted upon, but the rules clearly state that there is to be no phased negotiation and all areas are to be discussed simultaneously. So perhaps the only special status is for itself!
I missed my fix of Today, today.
I’ll get it up now.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
Lol it certainly passes the time on the early starts
EU countries allowed a leave referendum?
The UK for one.
Greenland voted to leave the then EC in 1984.
The Danes voted by 57% to remain in 2015.
Have any others been refused one? Have any others even asked for one?
Difficult to get one refused if it’s not asked for isn’t it?
.
The EU doesn’t do special status?
Good. Nice to hear you recognise that it’s a level playing field for all.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
If authoritarian regimes are not democratic, why would we want to join them?
The UK is the first country to be allowed to vote whether to join, or not. Greenland was voting for the EC, not the EU. The 2015 Denmark vote which you mention was over an opt-out, not whether to join the EU and was rejected by a majority 53%. The Danish Lisbon Treaty was ratified by its parliament, not a referendum just as the British one was.
Likewise, the French, Dutch, Irish were voting on treaties, not in or out.
Come on Franglais, you’ve got google for dates, times and places. Why try to twist facts and pretend referendum treaties are the same as voting the EU in or out?
The vast majority of EU countries are ruled by politicians who are not net contributors. They’re not likely to vote out.
Not a level playing field if you’re paying to support the majority of EU countries. Remain means having to accept third-world immigration quotas and the Euro. Level playing field right? No more opt-outs.
Still waiting for reasons as to why we should join the EU.
Edit to say @ Mazzer.
Interesting as an aside maybe. If they and us have been going about it the wrong way, what next asked Mr Humphreys?
His suggestion: we ignore the two previous years of negotiations, and get all 28 countries to agree a new mutually beneficial arrangement.
Whether he is right or wrong about the correct or wrongful method of negotiations: we are, where we are.
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Wonder why he said nowt, or nobody reported his thoughts until now?
Not suggesting a conspiracy, by the way!..
bet someone does though.
Franglais:
Edit to say @ Mazzer.
Interesting as an aside maybe. If they and us have been going about it the wrong way, what next asked Mr Humphreys?
His suggestion: we ignore the two previous years of negotiations, and get all 28 countries to agree a new mutually beneficial arrangement.
Whether he is right or wrong about the correct or wrongful method of negotiations: we are, where we are.
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Wonder why he said nowt, or nobody reported his thoughts until now?
Not suggesting a conspiracy, by the way!..
bet someone does though.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
I agree we are where we are, the UK has been badly let down by the incompetence of it’s negotiators who would struggle to barter a discount from an Turkish carpet seller.
As to the rules you would have thought that the first thing to have done in the negotiations would have been to read the rule book
EU countries allowed a leave referendum?
The UK for one.
Greenland voted to leave the then EC in 1984.
The Danes voted by 57% to remain in 2015.
Have any others been refused one? Have any others even asked for one?
Difficult to get one refused if it’s not asked for isn’t it?
.
The EU doesn’t do special status?
Good. Nice to hear you recognise that it’s a level playing field for all.
Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
If authoritarian regimes are not democratic, why would we want to join them?
The UK is the first country to be allowed to vote whether to join, or not. Greenland was voting for the EC, not the EU. The 2015 Denmark vote which you mention was over an opt-out, not whether to join the EU and was rejected by a majority 53%. The Danish Lisbon Treaty was ratified by its parliament, not a referendum just as the British one was.
Likewise, the French, Dutch, Irish were voting on treaties, not in or out.
Come on Franglais, you’ve got google for dates, times and places. Why try to twist facts and pretend referendum treaties are the same as voting the EU in or out?
The vast majority of EU countries are ruled by politicians who are not net contributors. They’re not likely to vote out.
Not a level playing field if you’re paying to support the majority of EU countries. Remain means having to accept third-world immigration quotas and the Euro. Level playing field right? No more opt-outs.
Still waiting for reasons as to why we should join the EU.
Look up Treaty of Rome 2004, at the resigning of the then 47 year old treaty, it was agreed by all members at that time to offer a referendum to the people, this had to be done within a 2 year grace period, which was the time it would take for the treaty and its laws to be assimilated by each nations laws and statutes. All gave the people a referendum apart from Blair, at first it was delayed until late 2006 and then indefinitely postponed.
Any country after 2004 wishing to join gave their people a vote as wether to join or not.
Why would we want to join an authoritarian regime?
Dunno? You tell me. I wouldn’t want to.
Sweet F.A. to do with our discussion of the EU after all.
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As I said, yes, Greenland voted to leave the EC.
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You’re correct, I think, the Denmark referendum concerned the Justice system only.
My error, of course Denmark is still in the EU.
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I never mentioned France, Eire or The Netherlands, and don’t know why you are?
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Difficult to give reasons to join the EU, since we’re already in it??
Are you talking of some hypothetical world where we still have an Empire or summat?
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I don’t think I’m twisting much here.
Please explain more clearly what I’m doing wrong to justify that accusation.
I fully accept my error on Denmark.
I was clear that it was the EC that Greenland left, and by giving the date it is obvious that the EU didn’t exist then.
