Which mode when stuck in a traffic jam

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
well here my other spanner in the works explain this then

Last one then because I am not debating this over several pages with you.

delboytwo:
in the 561/2006 regs there this

(e) ‘other work’ means all activities which are defined as
working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC
except ‘driving’, including any work for the same or
another employer, within or outside of the transport
sector;

And sitting in a traffic jam doing nothing work related doesn’t fit with that so not other work.

delboytwo:

Article 3

Definitions

For the purposes of this Directive:

(a) “working time” shall mean:

1. in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning to the end of work, during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the employer and exercising his functions or activities, that is to say:

• the time devoted to all road transport activities. These activities are, in particular, the following:

(i) driving;

(ii) loading and unloading;

(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from the vehicle;

(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;

(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading, administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers etc.,

Well you aren’t doing any of that while sitting doing nothing waiting for a jam to clear so still not other work.

delboytwo:

• the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on duty in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question, or under the general conditions negotiated between the social partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of the Member States;

You don’t have to stay at your workstation, you could sit on the bunk or in the passenger seat if you wish so that doesn’t apply.

delboytwo:
so its other work as it says your at your workstation and not freely of his time, see bit in read the driver is waiting for the traffic to move and does not know when

Exactly, so it cannot be POA as the duration isn’t known.

delboytwo:
so I say you can not put it on break while sitting it a traffic jam or what ever as happened to warrant a stop of such a time, were a break could be done it would and only could be count as other work

Sorry Del but you are wrong, what other work are you doing if you are just sitting there doing nothing? It has been explained why but you are doing a ROG and ignoring it. You aren’t going to be convinced otherwise because you are not understanding the criteria for a break.

delboytwo:
i stand by this and would never put on break while in traffic as for me i know that i not on break

That’s up to you, you are wrong but if your lack of knowledge prevents you taking the opportunity for a break when it could mean getting home a bit earlier and benefit you that is your choice. It could even avoid an infringement by preventing you going over the 4.5 hours.

delboytwo:
and to put a point if the truck is not moving you not recording driving it goes to other work cos that’s what it is

I knew you were going to come up with that one at some point but while some tacho units do indeed default to other work some default to break so how does that fit with that argument? Kinda blows it out the water does it not.

delboytwo:
look at it this way if its possible to take breaks while sitting in jams why is in not in the regs as say something like in article 12 if the unforeseen circumstances as a period of more then 15 minutes it my be possible to fit a break in a break my be taken

but as you know it does not give you that option

The regulations do not need to list every possible scenario in which you can take a break. The criteria for a break is clearly defined and it is up to the driver to see if those criteria fit their situation when they want to take a break.

Let’s try it with this situation.

Definition of a break.

Article 4 (d) ‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not
carry out any driving or any other work and which is
used exclusively for recuperation;

Step by step now to see if it fits into being stationary for a period in a traffic jam.

‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving

You aren’t driving, the tacho isn’t recording driving and for the regulations driving is only that time recorded by the tacho unit and you could even have the engine off if you wished so that part of the definition is met.

or any other work

You are not doing any work related tasks so that part is also met.

and which is used exclusively for recuperation;

Maybe the seat is reclined a bit and you are watching the world go by or reading a book or the paper. Maybe having a coffee from your flask or checking out that brunette in the BMW. Thinking about that game you watched last night and how your team was robbed or you might even be resting your eyelids a little. Well all that would count as recuperation so that part of the definition is also met.

Three things required by the regulations for a period to qualify as break and all three met. If it looks like a break, sounds like a break and walks like a break guess what, it’s a break.

And finally Del, how many of these type of discussions have you and I had over the last couple or so years that ran to several pages? Would you agree dozens? Now, how many of them has it turned out you were right and I wasn’t? That would be a big fat zero so what makes you think this time will be different? And it’s not just me saying this, Tachograph has also said it and other people, including more qualified people have said it in previous threads on this subject.

That’s it, I’m finished with this thread so enjoy the other pages and I’ll catch you on the next topic…

[tachograph]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
well here my other spanner in the works explain this then

Last one then because I am not debating this over several pages with you.

Are you sure about that ?

Time will tell

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:
Three things required by the regulations for a period to qualify as break and all three met. If it looks like a break, sounds like a break and walks like a break guess what, it’s a break.

so basically your saying if you can get a break in weather in a jam or stationery, and the time your stationery is sufficient to fit a break in, it can be used as one

but just one more point, how would you no there going to be an enough time to get a break in would you put the mode switch on break in the off chance or would that look like an infringement,if moving the truck say every few minutes, my truck defaults to other work when not driving and soon as I move in on break it goes to drive when I stop it goes to other work( I know this cos when my driver card is downloaded I have received infringements for the six hour rule under working time) i have had 1.30 hour of breaks in the day

what I trying to get to how can you know if in a jam that you could take the time as break (is it a hope you get one in before the time the truck moves) some jams are a long time I know that if happens

Coffeeholic:
And finally Del, how many of these type of discussions have you and I had over the last couple or so years that ran to several pages? Would you agree dozens? Now, how many of them has it turned out you were right and I wasn’t? That would be a big fat zero so what makes you think this time will be different?

yes but look at it this way you have been on the road a dam site longer then me as an LGV driver and have vast more experience than me ( my experience you could not fit it on a stamp )

we the few know there is a way to interpret the regs so the can fit the right scenario in to get what you need but we only fined out thinks like that is by debating it with you or tachograph

I’m not interested in posting pages on pages

just trying to learn

I stand by you and tachographs point on this

but please don’t don’t put me in the same league as other on here (not naming names ) as a least I using what I’m learning from your and others advice

Coffeeholic:
You don’t have to stay at your workstation, you could sit on the bunk or in the passenger seat if you wish so that doesn’t apply.

i know about it but under the regs

Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 2002 on the organisation of the working time of persons performing mobile road transport activities

this is what is a workstation is

(c) “workstation” shall mean:

• the location of the main place of business of the undertaking for which the person performing mobile road transport activities carries out duties, together with its various subsidiary places of business, regardless of whether they are located in the same place as its head office or main place of business,

• the vehicle which the person performing mobile road transport activities uses when he carries out duties, and

• any other place in which activities connected with transportation are carried out;

I know it says carries out duties in there but is it not a duty, cos your waiting for the traffic to move

but who’s going to know, that on say Friday you took a break on the M25 in lane 2 at junction 10 while sitting in traffic no one, cos the tachographs are no that good yet

so based on my last sentence, you could and can take a break where you like, as long as there sufficient time to get one in and that only took me a few post not bad for me sometime its not just about reading the regs it understanding the options that can be in them as well, as you have said a many a time to me and others you have to understand it to be able to read it or words to that affect

[rog]

delboytwo:
how would you no there going to be an enough time to get a break in

I knew that was going to be asked -

ROG:
If it’s on break for less than 15 mins what does that count as then ■■

Coffeeholic:
As you well know the answer is break.

Drive for 5 mins then break for 5 mins and repeat that 6 times = 30 mins drive & 30 mins break on the tacho card but cannot count as an official break for any of the regulations

[coffeeholic]

You were right Tachograph, it wasn’t my last post on this thread.

ROG:

delboytwo:
how would you no there going to be an enough time to get a break in

I knew that was going to be asked -

ROG:
If it’s on break for less than 15 mins what does that count as then ■■

Coffeeholic:
As you well know the answer is break.

Drive for 5 mins then break for 5 mins and repeat that 6 times = 30 mins drive & 30 mins break on the tacho card but cannot count as an official break for any of the regulations

Exactly. Although, while it doesn’t count as a required break for either set of regulations, being less than 15 minutes, it wouldn’t go toward the 48/60 hour WTD limits so in that sense it does have some sort of use.

delboytwo:
but just one more point, how would you no there going to be an enough time to get a break in would you put the mode switch on break in the off chance or would that look like an infringement,if moving the truck say every few minutes

You wouldn’t know for sure and I am not talking about doing it in every single traffic jam, in the vast majority you won’t get near a 15 minutes without moving, but on occasions you can just tell it’s going to be a while. Everything suddenly comes to a stop, you don’t move for a while, then the emergency and recovery services go flying up the hard shoulder and chances are you might get at least a 15 minute break in that time.

Also not sure why you think it would be an infringement for the tacho showing short breaks and short drives. I often stop for say the toilet and to buy a coffee, park, tacho on break and when I get back the tacho is showing say 6 - 8 minutes break. I don’t need a 15 so just drive off and that wouldn’t be an infringement any more than a few short breaks coupled with a few short drives would be.

It bis a popular misconception among driver’s, and managers, trainers and so on, that any break less than 15 minutes counts as other work. That is not correct, and is what ROG was getting at in his post, a break is a break regardless of length but only those that are longer than 15 minutes might count toward the regs. If you took a 15 minute break after 1 hour driving then took 20 minutes after a further 1.5 hours and finally a 30 minute break after another 2 hours driving that 20 minute break, although more than 15 minutes, wouldn’t actually count as a required break for the tacho regs but it would still be a break.

[dieseldave]

delboytwo:
just trying to learn

I stand by you and tachographs point on this

but please don’t don’t put me in the same league as other on here (not naming names ) as a least I using what I’m learning from your and others advice …

Hi Del,

Yes mate, without being quite sure who you might mean, it’s OK not to name names…

Instead of naming names, we now have a choice of new smilies. Any (or all) of which can be used to express the same feeling.

I prefer the last one.

[tachograph]

I know Del has now accepted that you can have a break whilst stationary in a traffic jam but to add to what you wrote about the definition of “Other Work”, if you’d read another two paragraphs you would have read this:

The break times referred to in Article 5, the rest times
referred to in Article 6 and, without prejudice to the legislation
of Member States or agreements between the social
partners providing that such periods should be compensated
or limited, the periods of availability referred to in (b)
of this Article, shall be excluded from working time;

There’s nothing in the regulations to say that you have to be free to leave the work station during a break, the only stipulations are that you do not do any “other work” or “driving” and can use the time (break) exclusively for recuperation, which as Coffeeholic has pointed out can easily be done if stationary on a road/motorway whatever.

Actually given the number of drivers I see driving with their feet up I assume they think you can have a break whilst driving

Coffeeholic:
You were right Tachograph, it wasn’t my last post on this thread.

You should really have know better by now

[andy187]

I always put tacho on break if i know motorway or road is closed, nothing wrong with it, last year 2 hours on M6 just becuase some one wanted to jump off bridge!

So sitting on barrier is classsed as what Del?

Chatting to other drivers?

Brewing up a coffee?

Also years ago i was advised by ministry girl to put it on break as you are not driving or working!