robbo99.:
And of the 70000 plus HGV licence holders, how many have a current CPC card? Not all that is a fact. Those 70000 plus licence holders aren’t all sat waiting for wages to go up to get in a truck, many wont drive a truck as they have better employment in other industries. Many will have passed in the forces and have never driven a truck in civvy street and have no intention of doing so.
A driver shortage is when there are not enough bums on seats to take loads down the road. Every adult in the UK could hold a HGV licence but for what ever reasons if enough don’t pursue that career then a driver shortage arises.
Quite a lot of them have a current CPC, and many more are just a week away from having one.
If drivers have better employment in other industries, then hauliers need to compete with the pay and conditions of those other industries who attract people who are not only capable of being drivers, but actually are qualified drivers.
The fact that the industry keeps pestering for immigration, and people not quite knowing how the Tories are going to react in the long term, is another thing rattling the confidence of potential drivers, and a reason why people aren’t jumping ship.
The industry has to start offering permanent jobs at better rates and with better conditions. Offering a couple of pounds an hour on agency, for essentially the same old casual arrangements with ridiculous hours, won’t draw more people in overall.
Frankly there is still no evidence of an actual shortage of drivers willing to accept 40 hour permanent contracts for day work (and driving only, not loading). It’s just industry propaganda, combined with the howls of hauliers who can’t get drivers at the best of times, and whose work is now already being done by other drivers working for better firms.
In other words, we don’t have a shortage of drivers, we are simply seeing the death throes of the bottom-feeders of the market - and how they scream with their last breath.
Rjan:
If drivers have better employment in other industries, then hauliers need to compete with the pay and conditions of those other industries
Is it only transport with a labour shortage?
If so you are making a valid point, but there are also shortages reported in construction, hospitality, as well as transport. If there isn`t a large enough labour pool then the spiral of wages to move them around is futile. A pay hike is obviously welcome to me as much as to anyone, but the longer term prospects are different.
KPMG and Recruitment and Employment Confederation report such.
robbo99.:
And of the 70000 plus HGV licence holders, how many have a current CPC card? Not all that is a fact. Those 70000 plus licence holders aren’t all sat waiting for wages to go up to get in a truck, many wont drive a truck as they have better employment in other industries. Many will have passed in the forces and have never driven a truck in civvy street and have no intention of doing so.
A driver shortage is when there are not enough bums on seats to take loads down the road. Every adult in the UK could hold a HGV licence but for what ever reasons if enough don’t pursue that career then a driver shortage arises.
Quite a lot of them have a current CPC, and many more are just a week away from having one.
If drivers have better employment in other industries, then hauliers need to compete with the pay and conditions of those other industries who attract people who are not only capable of being drivers, but actually are qualified drivers.
The fact that the industry keeps pestering for immigration, and people not quite knowing how the Tories are going to react in the long term, is another thing rattling the confidence of potential drivers, and a reason why people aren’t jumping ship.
The industry has to start offering permanent jobs at better rates and with better conditions. Offering a couple of pounds an hour on agency, for essentially the same old casual arrangements with ridiculous hours, won’t draw more people in overall.
Frankly there is still no evidence of an actual shortage of drivers willing to accept 40 hour permanent contracts for day work (and driving only, not loading). It’s just industry propaganda, combined with the howls of hauliers who can’t get drivers at the best of times, and whose work is now already being done by other drivers working for better firms.
In other words, we don’t have a shortage of drivers, we are simply seeing the death throes of the bottom-feeders of the market - and how they scream with their last breath.
Exactly this. Good firms with good t&c are not bleating, just the scalpers screaming. No sympathy here.
robbo99.:
And of the 70000 plus HGV licence holders, how many have a current CPC card? Not all that is a fact. Those 70000 plus licence holders aren’t all sat waiting for wages to go up to get in a truck, many wont drive a truck as they have better employment in other industries. Many will have passed in the forces and have never driven a truck in civvy street and have no intention of doing so.
A driver shortage is when there are not enough bums on seats to take loads down the road. Every adult in the UK could hold a HGV licence but for what ever reasons if enough don’t pursue that career then a driver shortage arises.
Quite a lot of them have a current CPC, and many more are just a week away from having one.
If drivers have better employment in other industries, then hauliers need to compete with the pay and conditions of those other industries who attract people who are not only capable of being drivers, but actually are qualified drivers.
The fact that the industry keeps pestering for immigration, and people not quite knowing how the Tories are going to react in the long term, is another thing rattling the confidence of potential drivers, and a reason why people aren’t jumping ship.
The industry has to start offering permanent jobs at better rates and with better conditions. Offering a couple of pounds an hour on agency, for essentially the same old casual arrangements with ridiculous hours, won’t draw more people in overall.
Frankly there is still no evidence of an actual shortage of drivers willing to accept 40 hour permanent contracts for day work (and driving only, not loading). It’s just industry propaganda, combined with the howls of hauliers who can’t get drivers at the best of times, and whose work is now already being done by other drivers working for better firms.
In other words, we don’t have a shortage of drivers, we are simply seeing the death throes of the bottom-feeders of the market - and how they scream with their last breath.
I fail to see where you are coming from. Shortages of drivers for the bottom feeders of the market but no shortage for 40 hour contracts, so what? I think you will find that when loads don’t go down the road because many many firms can’t get enough drivers then that equals a driver shortage. Like I posted it doesn’t matter the reasons, there IS a driver shortage. I would guess that many hgv licence holders, not driving, will have no CPC entitlement and will have no interest in driving trucks. I’ve got a counter balance forklift licence and will never sit on one all the time I’ve got a hole in my ■■■, and I don’t need a meaningless CPC entitlement to do so.
Rjan:
If drivers have better employment in other industries, then hauliers need to compete with the pay and conditions of those other industries
Is it only transport with a labour shortage?
If so you are making a valid point, but there are also shortages reported in construction, hospitality, as well as transport. If there isn`t a large enough labour pool then the spiral of wages to move them around is futile. A pay hike is obviously welcome to me as much as to anyone, but the longer term prospects are different.
KPMG and Recruitment and Employment Confederation report such.
Yes, basically a “shortage” in every line of work where crap pay and conditions predominate.
The reality of a pay hike isn’t that workers will just move around. It is that crap jobs and uneconomic activities will be purged from the economy completely, either because people won’t pay for trivial things to be done, or they’ll find another way (like machinery or more efficient methods that require better-paid, higher-skilled workers who are treated properly).
It never fails to amaze me how left-liberals turn into Jeremiahs at the first sign that bosses actually have to pay better and improve conditions. Even if it was a zero sum game, the boot will be on our foot, not theirs.
I suppose a comparison for the bottom feeder jobs and the in demand 40 hour contracts would be like comparing Manchester United with Accrington Stanley, far better pay and terms and conditions at Man U but someone’s got to play for AS. If through Brexit, Covid and tax reforms many foreign players returned home then there would be a footballer shortage.
The media is reporting a number of industries with shortages (not COVID related), such as chefs, farm workers, warehouse workers and truck drivers. Many of these industries employed EE workers.
As for LGV license holders the 70k will include those unfit to work, the ex-driver in the office, the boss who started the company as an owner driver, but who now drives a desk, fitters, trainers and as stated ex military who have no intention of driving a truck (such as my mate who has a very well paid I.T. job in the NHS)
Sixties boy:
The media is reporting a number of industries with shortages (not COVID related), such as chefs, farm workers, warehouse workers and truck drivers. Many of these industries employed EE workers.
As for LGV license holders the 70k will include those unfit to work, the ex-driver in the office, the boss who started the company as an owner driver, but who now drives a desk, fitters, trainers and as stated ex military who have no intention of driving a truck (such as my mate who has a very well paid I.T. job in the NHS)
Many people under 45 will renew their HGV (or LGV) because it is free as compared to paying £17 or whatever for a car one. Also, folks such as horsey types may have a cat C for the purposes of driving the larger horse boxes.
Rjan:
If drivers have better employment in other industries, then hauliers need to compete with the pay and conditions of those other industries
Is it only transport with a labour shortage?
If so you are making a valid point, but there are also shortages reported in construction, hospitality, as well as transport. If there isn`t a large enough labour pool then the spiral of wages to move them around is futile. A pay hike is obviously welcome to me as much as to anyone, but the longer term prospects are different.
KPMG and Recruitment and Employment Confederation report such.
Yes, basically a “shortage” in every line of work where crap pay and conditions predominate.
The reality of a pay hike isn’t that workers will just move around. It is that crap jobs and uneconomic activities will be purged from the economy completely, either because people won’t pay for trivial things to be done, or they’ll find another way (like machinery or more efficient methods that require better-paid, higher-skilled workers who are treated properly).
It never fails to amaze me how left-liberals turn into Jeremiahs at the first sign that bosses actually have to pay better and improve conditions. Even if it was a zero sum game, the boot will be on our foot, not theirs.
Crap jobs will be purged from the economy? Which economy? The UK is not a closed system.
The Brexit chosen means we are moving from an EU economy to a “free trade with everyone” economy. What chance of investment in UK plant when a company can employ a cheap labourer in a dirty factory, and import goods with no restrictions?
We are already below other G7 countries in productivity figures, open borders for trade could mean putting off of investment here. Hope Im wrong, but well see.
I fail to see where you are coming from. Shortages of drivers for the bottom feeders of the market but no shortage for 40 hour contracts, so what? I think you will find that when loads don’t go down the road because many many firms can’t get enough drivers then that equals a driver shortage.
But loads are moving. There are no growing mountains of unmoved goods - mountains that built up during Covid are reducing. They’re just not moving with the bottom feeders, they’re moving with firms that have good reputations and who pay current market rates and offer good conditions.
All this nonsense about a company the size of Tesco struggling to move one lorryload of lettuce a week, or something like that. I mean come on, they must move tens of thousands of loads a week. They have billions of pounds of economic power available, to ensure that goods which have to move, move at any price.
Like I posted it doesn’t matter the reasons, there IS a driver shortage. I would guess that many hgv licence holders, not driving, will have no CPC entitlement and will have no interest in driving trucks. I’ve got a counter balance forklift licence and will never sit on one all the time I’ve got a hole in my ■■■, and I don’t need a meaningless CPC entitlement to do so.
Pay enough, and there will always be interest generated amongst people who work for a living. Nobody says every licenced driver can feasibly be recruited. We simply know there are some, and there will be more, who will respond to credible and long-term improvements in the pay and conditions. It’s exactly how other occupations recruit.
Rjan:
It never fails to amaze me how left-liberals turn into Jeremiahs at the first sign that bosses actually have to pay better and improve conditions. Even if it was a zero sum game, the boot will be on our foot, not theirs.
This didn’t get the recognition it deserved. Well said. But they are too dumb to get it.
Crap jobs will be purged from the economy? Which economy? The UK is not a closed system.
The Brexit chosen means we are moving from an EU economy to a “free trade with everyone” economy. What chance of investment in UK plant when a company can employ a cheap labourer in a dirty factory, and import goods with no restrictions?
We are already below other G7 countries in productivity figures, open borders for trade could mean putting off of investment here. Hope Im wrong, but well see.
“Productivity” just means the rate of exploitation. It means getting more for less wages paid. It doesn’t mean workers actually spending less time or effort. So we should expect good jobs to be “low productivity”, and crap jobs to be “high productivity”, by this usual definition.
As for free trade, that is not necessary as a result of Brexit. The rest of the world cannot yet just import whatever they like tariff-free into the UK, as EU members could.
Obviously I’m not a right-wing Brexiteer whose ■■■■■■■■■ would be tariffless offshoring of British jobs and unrestricted migration of foreign workers, but the vast majority of Tory voters aren’t either.
I fail to see where you are coming from. Shortages of drivers for the bottom feeders of the market but no shortage for 40 hour contracts, so what? I think you will find that when loads don’t go down the road because many many firms can’t get enough drivers then that equals a driver shortage.
But loads are moving. There are no growing mountains of unmoved goods - mountains that built up during Covid are reducing. They’re just not moving with the bottom feeders, they’re moving with firms that have good reputations and who pay current market rates and offer good conditions.
All this nonsense about a company the size of Tesco struggling to move one lorryload of lettuce a week, or something like that. I mean come on, they must move tens of thousands of loads a week. They have billions of pounds of economic power available, to ensure that goods which have to move, move at any price.
Like I posted it doesn’t matter the reasons, there IS a driver shortage. I would guess that many hgv licence holders, not driving, will have no CPC entitlement and will have no interest in driving trucks. I’ve got a counter balance forklift licence and will never sit on one all the time I’ve got a hole in my ■■■, and I don’t need a meaningless CPC entitlement to do so.
Pay enough, and there will always be interest generated amongst people who work for a living. Nobody says every licenced driver can feasibly be recruited. We simply know there are some, and there will be more, who will respond to credible and long-term improvements in the pay and conditions. It’s exactly how other occupations recruit.
Crap jobs will be purged from the economy? Which economy? The UK is not a closed system.
The Brexit chosen means we are moving from an EU economy to a “free trade with everyone” economy. What chance of investment in UK plant when a company can employ a cheap labourer in a dirty factory, and import goods with no restrictions?
We are already below other G7 countries in productivity figures, open borders for trade could mean putting off of investment here. Hope Im wrong, but well see.
“Productivity” just means the rate of exploitation. It means getting more for less wages paid. It doesn’t mean workers actually spending less time or effort. So we should expect good jobs to be “low productivity”, and crap jobs to be “high productivity”, by this usual definition.
As for free trade, that is not necessary as a result of Brexit. The rest of the world cannot yet just import whatever they like tariff-free into the UK, as EU members could.
Obviously I’m not a right-wing Brexiteer whose ■■■■■■■■■ would be tariffless offshoring of British jobs and unrestricted migration of foreign workers, but the vast majority of Tory voters aren’t either.
Productivity doesn`t necessarily mean more production for an amount of wage paid, as you describe it.
It is more often production per head of worker, irrespective of wage paid. It is often seen as a measure of investment in plant and technology, including the deskilling of complex tasks resulting in lower wages, and/or possibly fewer jobs.
Tory voters may not be free traders, many seem to be isolationists! But look at what deals are being signed! Too many have been fooled by their own wishful thinking about what Brexit should be, not what they are actually getting.
The Brexit we are getting is not for the good of workers, nor of this country as a whole, it is good for those who finance the Tory party and who publish nonsense about it to all who`ll listen. It is designed for free trade and profit for multinational companies.
Enticing a few people back isn’t a solution but in the short-term it may alleviate the situation of having a dearth of drivers suitably qualified and willing to drive.
The industry needs to start thinking about making the career a bit more appealing to entrants, be they young, middle-aged or even old. The entry route of drivers self-funding licences should be put to bed. There needs to be proper training given, including properly accompanying drivers to show them the ropes. Make it a career with training and give drivers some respect and dignity in the job rather than the general talking down to them and treating them like slaves.
Was it ever okay to expect entrants to outlay £1500 or £3000 and then insult them with barely a tenner an hour? Not really.
Would it be okay to pay a tenner an hour during apprenticeship while a licence is acquired and experience gained? Probably.
Pay is a factor in attracting drivers and if anything it should be a recognition of the conditions tolerated. At the end of the day it isn’t really a significantly highly skilled job, but it is does require a certain mindset and good endurance to be successful. People aren’t really going to put up with all the difficult aspects of the job if it isn’t rewarded.
Noremac:
Enticing a few people back isn’t a solution but in the short-term it may alleviate the situation of having a dearth of drivers suitably qualified and willing to drive.
The industry needs to start thinking about making the career a bit more appealing to entrants, be they young, middle-aged or even old. The entry route of drivers self-funding licences should be put to bed. There needs to be proper training given, including properly accompanying drivers to show them the ropes. Make it a career with training and give drivers some respect and dignity in the job rather than the general talking down to them and treating them like slaves.
Was it ever okay to expect entrants to outlay £1500 or £3000 and then insult them with barely a tenner an hour? Not really.
Would it be okay to pay a tenner an hour during apprenticeship while a licence is acquired and experience gained? Probably.
Pay is a factor in attracting drivers and if anything it should be a recognition of the conditions tolerated. At the end of the day it isn’t really a significantly highly skilled job, but it is does require a certain mindset and good endurance to be successful. People aren’t really going to put up with all the difficult aspects of the job if it isn’t rewarded.
This is all true, but I think many here are not looking at the bigger picture. The truck driving sector is very much weighted towards the higher age groups. As these drivers retire there needs to be new blood to replace them in order to maintain the status quo. Youngsters are not interested in working for a living. They want to sit at home playing Battlefield on their Xbox all day and become millionaires from buying Dogecoin on Robinhood app. They know that they have absoutely zero chance of ever being able to afford to buy a decent house now, even if they worked every legal hour possible for 30 years of their life, so what’s the point when you can sit on your arse playing Battlefield and the government pays you a UBI. It’s not here yet, but it’s coming. The “stimmy checks” in the US show us where we are heading. Pretty much every industry is advertising for workers over there, but no-one wants to work because why graft for a living when the government will give me “free” money while I sit at home in my boxers playing on my Xbox?
The same issue is affecting all other unskilled or semi-skilled sectors - it’s not limited to the truck driving sector. The pay on offer does not offset the undesirable working conditions in many cases, so people are retraining to move into industries with more desirable terms and conditions (eg. train driving) or simply saying “[zb] it” and living off the State.
Noremac:
Enticing a few people back isn’t a solution but in the short-term it may alleviate the situation of having a dearth of drivers suitably qualified and willing to drive.
The industry needs to start thinking about making the career a bit more appealing to entrants, be they young, middle-aged or even old. The entry route of drivers self-funding licences should be put to bed. There needs to be proper training given, including properly accompanying drivers to show them the ropes. Make it a career with training and give drivers some respect and dignity in the job rather than the general talking down to them and treating them like slaves.
Was it ever okay to expect entrants to outlay £1500 or £3000 and then insult them with barely a tenner an hour? Not really.
Would it be okay to pay a tenner an hour during apprenticeship while a licence is acquired and experience gained? Probably.
Pay is a factor in attracting drivers and if anything it should be a recognition of the conditions tolerated. At the end of the day it isn’t really a significantly highly skilled job, but it is does require a certain mindset and good endurance to be successful. People aren’t really going to put up with all the difficult aspects of the job if it isn’t rewarded.
This is all true, but I think many here are not looking at the bigger picture. The truck driving sector is very much weighted towards the higher age groups. As these drivers retire there needs to be new blood to replace them in order to maintain the status quo. Youngsters are not interested in working for a living. They want to sit at home playing Battlefield on their Xbox all day and become millionaires from buying Dogecoin on Robinhood app. They know that they have absoutely zero chance of ever being able to afford to buy a decent house now, even if they worked every legal hour possible for 30 years of their life, so what’s the point when you can sit on your arse playing Battlefield and the government pays you a UBI. It’s not here yet, but it’s coming. The “stimmy checks” in the US show us where we are heading. Pretty much every industry is advertising for workers over there, but no-one wants to work because why graft for a living when the government will give me “free” money while I sit at home in my boxers playing on my Xbox?
The same issue is affecting all other unskilled or semi-skilled sectors - it’s not limited to the truck driving sector. The pay on offer does not offset the undesirable working conditions in many cases, so people are retraining to move into industries with more desirable terms and conditions (eg. train driving) or simply saying “[zb] it” and living off the State.
My mrs’s daughter managed to buy a quarter of a million pound house at the age of 20 with her 23 year old boyfriend, just this year rather than playing battlefield.
They have had ■■■■ all in the way of handouts from parents.
Noremac:
Enticing a few people back isn’t a solution but in the short-term it may alleviate the situation of having a dearth of drivers suitably qualified and willing to drive.
The industry needs to start thinking about making the career a bit more appealing to entrants, be they young, middle-aged or even old. The entry route of drivers self-funding licences should be put to bed. There needs to be proper training given, including properly accompanying drivers to show them the ropes. Make it a career with training and give drivers some respect and dignity in the job rather than the general talking down to them and treating them like slaves.
Was it ever okay to expect entrants to outlay £1500 or £3000 and then insult them with barely a tenner an hour? Not really.
Would it be okay to pay a tenner an hour during apprenticeship while a licence is acquired and experience gained? Probably.
Pay is a factor in attracting drivers and if anything it should be a recognition of the conditions tolerated. At the end of the day it isn’t really a significantly highly skilled job, but it is does require a certain mindset and good endurance to be successful. People aren’t really going to put up with all the difficult aspects of the job if it isn’t rewarded.
This is all true, but I think many here are not looking at the bigger picture. The truck driving sector is very much weighted towards the higher age groups. As these drivers retire there needs to be new blood to replace them in order to maintain the status quo. Youngsters are not interested in working for a living. They want to sit at home playing Battlefield on their Xbox all day and become millionaires from buying Dogecoin on Robinhood app. They know that they have absoutely zero chance of ever being able to afford to buy a decent house now, even if they worked every legal hour possible for 30 years of their life, so what’s the point when you can sit on your arse playing Battlefield and the government pays you a UBI. It’s not here yet, but it’s coming. The “stimmy checks” in the US show us where we are heading. Pretty much every industry is advertising for workers over there, but no-one wants to work because why graft for a living when the government will give me “free” money while I sit at home in my boxers playing on my Xbox?
The same issue is affecting all other unskilled or semi-skilled sectors - it’s not limited to the truck driving sector. The pay on offer does not offset the undesirable working conditions in many cases, so people are retraining to move into industries with more desirable terms and conditions (eg. train driving) or simply saying “[zb] it” and living off the State.
My mrs’s daughter managed to buy a quarter of a million pound house at the age of 20 with her 23 year old boyfriend, just this year rather than playing battlefield.
They have had [zb] all in the way of handouts from parents.
So don’t talk out your arse all at once.
Yes, because that’s definitely representative of the majority of youngsters in that age group isn’t it? Buying £250k houses at 20yrs old.
Idiot.
‘Doing the training’ and ‘doing the job’ are not the same thing.
Show me a new pass who can jump in a dustcart and do 80 collections around a city centre in a 9.5 hour shift without scraping the truck. Could he then go another six months without having a bump?
