What would you like to see in a post-EU UK?

Rjan:

Winseer:
So far the WTD has been resisted by firms who just get drivers to use POA and end up working them 50-84 hours still […]

The real solution is for pay rates to increase (to preserve overall take-home pay), and for waiting times to be decreased.

People often seem to talk as though higher rates of pay with reduced hours, or doing jobs differently, is totally inconceivable, like saying we should break the laws of physics.

There would have to be a realistic rise in haulage rates before drivers wages could be increased, on that the haulage industry should be forced charge an absolute minimum £? per mile to cover total running costs, then charging extra for the level of service they can provide.

weeto:

Rjan:

Winseer:
So far the WTD has been resisted by firms who just get drivers to use POA and end up working them 50-84 hours still […]

The real solution is for pay rates to increase (to preserve overall take-home pay), and for waiting times to be decreased.

People often seem to talk as though higher rates of pay with reduced hours, or doing jobs differently, is totally inconceivable, like saying we should break the laws of physics.

There would have to be a realistic rise in haulage rates before drivers wages could be increased, on that the haulage industry should be forced charge an absolute minimum £? per mile to cover total running costs, then charging extra for the level of service they can provide.

The logical answer to that is to take the wage component of running costs out of the competitive tendering process by creating what is an industry specific ‘minimum wage’ structure.All of which is a simple solution done decades ago under the strong union environment of the 1960’s US economy.In the form of Hoffa’s Master Freight Agreement.While it’s also obvious that the industry’s workforce is bearing the burden of unfair road fuel taxation in that regard.

Rjan won’t like any of that because it goes against everything that Socialist policy stands for in the form punitive taxation of road transport to create a pro rail anti road transport environment and its not liking the inconvenient idea of strong unions working together with Fordist Capitalism.IE Socialism thinks that only it has the god given right to decide what’s good for the working class.

Dipper_Dave:
Leave the drivers hours regs alone, well could drop the 90hours a fortnight thing.

Issue testicles to all drivers who want to work less hours. ■■■ me if I want to work less than 15 I work less than 15. :wink:

+1

truckman020:

Dipper_Dave:
Leave the drivers hours regs alone, well could drop the 90hours a fortnight thing.

Issue testicles to all drivers who want to work less hours. ■■■ me if I want to work less than 15 I work less than 15. :wink:

+1

No thanks.Who wants to be sharing the roads with ‘heroes’ who think it’s ok to drive a truck with possibly less than 6 hours sleep within 24.12 hours minimum daily rest take it or leave it. :unamused:

Carryfast:
The logical answer to that is to take the wage component of running costs out of the competitive tendering process by creating what is an industry specific ‘minimum wage’ structure.All of which is a simple solution done decades ago under the strong union environment of the 1960’s US economy.In the form of Hoffa’s Master Freight Agreement.

Minimum wages and conditions enforced by wage councils or closed shops across an industry, in other words.

Rjan won’t like any of that

On the contrary, it’s exactly what I keep arguing for!

Rjan:

Carryfast:
The logical answer to that is to take the wage component of running costs out of the competitive tendering process by creating what is an industry specific ‘minimum wage’ structure.All of which is a simple solution done decades ago under the strong union environment of the 1960’s US economy.In the form of Hoffa’s Master Freight Agreement.

Minimum wages and conditions enforced by wage councils or closed shops across an industry, in other words.

Rjan won’t like any of that

On the contrary, it’s exactly what I keep arguing for!

Absolutely that’s what unions are there for to unite the workforce and stop it under cutting each other.

The bit where we diverge is that the Socialists say that only they can provide the environment of union solidarity to provide that.Together with all the rest of the dictatorial baggage and bs political agenda that goes with it.As I said the result being the total opposite in the exploitative Chinese and Soviet cluster zb’s with their downtrodden subservient working class v 1960’s Fordist Capitalist America.In addition to the situation in which truck drivers and road transport is seen as a second class group compared to the chosen train driver and rail transport group.Which can be seen within the difference in the relative respective Unite as opposed to ASLEF/RMT agendas.IE stitch up the Road Transport industry and its workforce in favour of rail.

Carryfast:
Absolutely that’s what unions are there for to unite the workforce and stop it under cutting each other.

The bit where we diverge is that the Socialists say that only they can provide the environment of union solidarity to provide that.Together with all the rest of the dictatorial baggage and bs political agenda that goes with it.As I said the result being the total opposite in the exploitative Chinese and Soviet cluster zb’s with their downtrodden subservient working class v 1960’s Fordist Capitalist America.

I wouldn’t overplay how downtrodden the Soviet working class was in the 1960s. Fellas whose parents had grown up in a backward rural economy were putting guys in space, and before that in the 30s when American stockbrokers were jumping out of windows and guys in Britain were marching for food, the Soviets were experiencing an economic transformation that would place them as victors of the Second World War a decade later. The enemies of the state being sent to the gulags had their counterparts in our industrial and imperial history, and Germany in the 1940s was shooting babies and cooking people in ovens. In the 50s the French were using horror to pacify their African and Indochinese colonies; the list is endless. The Soviets were such a menace to western capitalism not because their system worked so badly, but because it worked so outstandingly well compared to people’s general experience of capitalism.

It’s later ideological rudderlessness and corruption, and eventual failure to keep up with the highly redistributive, state-managed capitalism in the West, is what brought it to its conclusion.

In addition to the situation in which truck drivers and road transport is seen as a second class group compared to the chosen train driver and rail transport group.Which can be seen within the difference in the relative respective Unite as opposed to ASLEF/RMT agendas.IE stitch up the Road Transport industry and its workforce in favour of rail.

The problem is that road haulage operators and employees themselves tend to be more freewheeling than railwaymen. When the railways shut down, they always seem to find road hauliers ready to scab. Secondly most railway jobs are infinitely better quality than road haulage jobs - people there get good money, job security, pensions, and lower working hours, and when road haulage tries to match that it turns out that railways are also significantly more efficient with labour too (if less flexible generally for consignors).

Rjan:
I wouldn’t overplay how downtrodden the Soviet working class was in the 1960s. Fellas whose parents had grown up in a backward rural economy were putting guys in space, and before that in the 30s when American stockbrokers were jumping out of windows and guys in Britain were marching for food, the Soviets were experiencing an economic transformation that would place them as victors of the Second World War a decade later. The enemies of the state being sent to the gulags had their counterparts in our industrial and imperial history, and Germany in the 1940s was shooting babies and cooking people in ovens. In the 50s the French were using horror to pacify their African and Indochinese colonies; the list is endless. The Soviets were such a menace to western capitalism not because their system worked so badly, but because it worked so outstandingly well compared to people’s general experience of capitalism.

It’s later ideological rudderlessness and corruption, and eventual failure to keep up with the highly redistributive, state-managed capitalism in the West, is what brought it to its conclusion.

.

Firstly I don’t think we could really call pre WW2 US or UK economies Fordist Capitalist.With Ford’s ideas having long been crushed by the typical Victorian business ethic of his competitors by then.With the great depression and industrial strife on both sides of the Atlantic being the result.But no I can’t believe that living standards of the average Soviet worker was anywhere close to that of their US counterpart in the 1950’s/60’s.While agreed maybe that gap wasn’t always that large in the case of the sometimes less Fordist wage regime UK.IE I’d guess going home to the zb state supplied high rise flat after an equally zb day at the low paid job and having to use public transport to commute because they couldn’t afford a car was no different whether Soviet or UK worker.The important bit being that would have been the rule in the Soviet Union as opposed to the exception here in the day. :bulb:

kommunalka.colgate.edu/cfm/essays.cfm?ClipID=376

Carryfast:

truckman020:

Dipper_Dave:
Leave the drivers hours regs alone, well could drop the 90hours a fortnight thing.

Issue testicles to all drivers who want to work less hours. ■■■ me if I want to work less than 15 I work less than 15. :wink:

+1

No thanks.Who wants to be sharing the roads with ‘heroes’ who think it’s ok to drive a truck with possibly less than 6 hours sleep within 24.12 hours minimum daily rest take it or leave it. :unamused:

I’ll leave it, tired drivers are an individual’s personal choice, bit like choosing whether to max out or not.

I’m quite happy with the flexibility of 11 (with reducers an option).

Although a minimum of 12 could be an option for those not sleeping in their truck.

All about choice really.

On a totally unrelated note CF, may I ask if Rjan is a relative.

Carryfast:
Firstly I don’t think we could really call pre WW2 US or UK economies Fordist Capitalist.With Ford’s ideas having long been crushed by the typical Victorian business ethic of his competitors by then.

I’m not really sure that makes any sense. The model T was a 1900s product, and Henry Ford died in 1947 (which might loosely be regarded as the beginning of the period when capitalism as a whole adopted a more paternalistic, managed form). The Ford Motor Company itself never went back to Victorian practices. Far from Ford’s ideas being crushed by competitors, it would appear that Ford’s mentality spread and became more popular!

I know that the British chemical industry was also openly stitching-up the market in the 1920s - they had realised that bitter, low-road competition was bad for profits and bad for the progress of the industry. Today, these practices would be illegal as monopolistic, because Victorian attitudes to business prevail once again and have been baked back into our laws since the 1980s (not just here but in fact neoliberalism has swept across Western capitalism at just around the same time as the Soviet ideological threat started to abate).

It is true that the whole economies of the US or the UK could not, pre-WW2, have been called Fordist, but that’s why in that era ‘Communism’ was running away with the prize, because the Soviets were doing to develop their whole society precisely what Western capitalist states would not do!

It is often noted by historians that Hitler made a great mistake in not appropriating the means of production from private hands, and turning to a command economy early enough (which Britain did immediately and extensively on the outbreak of war). But of course, his whole agenda (and the reason why the Nazis had such support amongst the German middle and upper classes) was precisely to stop that happening and reject the underpinning ideology of taking production into public ownership and management.

We see the same today, were we’re seeing the grievances of the working class against capitalism (and the concern of elites about left-wing solutions to it), transformed into anti-EU, anti-regulation, anti-socialistic solutions like Brexit, in which the grand plan of Farage is simply a return to the beggar-thy-neighbour policies of yore of trying to export and compete your way out of an international crisis of capitalism.

With the great depression and industrial strife on both sides of the Atlantic being the result.But no I can’t believe that living standards of the average Soviet worker was anywhere close to that of their US counterpart in the 1950’s/60’s.While agreed maybe that gap wasn’t always that large in the case of the sometimes less Fordist wage regime UK.IE I’d guess going home to the zb state supplied high rise flat after an equally zb day at the low paid job and having to use public transport to commute because they couldn’t afford a car was no different whether Soviet or UK worker.The important bit being that would have been the rule in the Soviet Union as opposed to the exception here in the day. :bulb:

But you can’t compare the two like that, because the Soviets had less-developed economic capacity to begin with - it’s like pointing today to an African capitalist state, and saying capitalism doesn’t work simply because they’re living in mud huts and shanty towns. The British suffered under capitalism the same conditions as the Soviets, but before living memory, and whenever capitalism started to run away with itself and tear society apart in Britain, the state could intervene, slow things down, and put palliatives in place (like with “outdoor relief” and measures to control the markets and protect the traditional economic claims of the poor, like secure agricultural tenancies and so forth). The Soviets were constrained in that any slowdown would have led to their being conquered imminently from outside, whereas Britain never faced that (the only impulse to Elizabethan and Victorian horrors were the bonanza profits it created for the ruling class, for the Soviets the impulse was to avoid military attack from outside).

Communal Living in Russia

The Soviet problems of housing were no different to our VIctorian problems of housing. I live today on ground that was previously occupied by squalid Victorian housing, which was knocked down in the 1930s by the council and replaced by a modern housing estate (which itself is far more luxurious than the shoe-box housing being provided by private builders in the market today). This is why I say it is important not to overstate the horrors of communism. If the Soviets had developed slower, the superb efficiencies of communism could have been used to protect Soviet people from the horrors of VIctorian capitalism, but then they’d have been militarily conquered by western capitalist states who were already far more advanced. The Paris Commune had showed what happened to communist projects that couldn’t defend themselves. Much later, there is the example of Allende (still the only ever peacefully and democratically elected socialist, who was quickly overthrown militarily by US-supported capitalists).

The threat for Western capitalism was never really that people would up-sticks and go and live in some Soviet industrial town 100 years behind the West (whether that town was squalid or not). It was that, using the same socialist ideology anywhere in the already-industrialised West, would have produced results that were clearly superior to any Western capitalist nation. It was only by preventing revolution in the largest Western capitalist nations that we never got to see this, and instead capitalism made large concessions to the working class that itself produced rapid economic development, and really a modern flowering of civilisation and popular prosperity, but has now been rolled back because there is no ideological threat on the same scale as the Soviets were.

By the 1970s, the Western rich had never been poorer and capitalism was faltering under the demands of it’s socialist-in-capitalist-clothing economic policies, but by doing so it had successfully bankrupted the Soviet regime by forcing colossal resources to be consumed for defence and national security purposes and break-neck changes needed to industrialise the USSR (from what began as a largely agrarian economy). A slower pace of change, and more resources dedicated to worker’s private consumption, would have been nicer, but then the West would have just conquered the USSR in the normal way with bombs and trade embargoes.

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Firstly I don’t think we could really call pre WW2 US or UK economies Fordist Capitalist.With Ford’s ideas having long been crushed by the typical Victorian business ethic of his competitors by then.

I’m not really sure that makes any sense. The model T was a 1900s product, and Henry Ford died in 1947 (which might loosely be regarded as the beginning of the period when capitalism as a whole adopted a more paternalistic, managed form). The Ford Motor Company itself never went back to Victorian practices. Far from Ford’s ideas being crushed by competitors, it would appear that Ford’s mentality spread and became more popular!

It is true that the whole economies of the US or the UK could not, pre-WW2, have been called Fordist, but that’s why in that era ‘Communism’ was running away with the prize, because the Soviets were doing to develop their whole society precisely what Western capitalist states would not do!

You’ve contradicted yourself.As I said the ‘pre WW2’ US,or UK economies,could never be called Fordist in terms of the high wage and resulting large scale consumer driven circle.While Ford certainly by then had introduced the idea.The fact was his competitors weren’t co operating with it.Hence the massive levels of industrial strife in the US which made our typically half hearted doomed to failure General Strike of 1926 look tame.

youtube.com/watch?v=m44DLk-IX1s

That all changed by the 1950’s with the US economy going ballistic from 1945 on.Eisenhower and Kennedy having actually done for the WW2 generation what had been promised but not delivered in the case of the WW1 generation. :bulb:

youtube.com/watch?v=yYf_nyjvxlI

youtube.com/watch?v=L7z4BUYSfVo 4.05 - 5.03

As for the Soviet Union no.The Socialist system is just another corrupt economic model based on a down trodden indoctrinated workforce for the benefit of a chosen hierarchy.Hence the alliance of non Fordist Capitalism and Chinese Communism that we’ve got now. :bulb:

There are too many people in this country, and in the world as a whole. It’s therefore got nothing to do with “Immigration” at all - because we’re ALL born here on this same planet.

For the future:

(1) We go to the stars
(2) We cull mankind with WWIII
(3) Mankind experiences a die-back from a natural disaster that’s global

Of those three options - (1) Is still over 20 years away, just as Sports Cars were over 20 years away when the Automobile was originally invented in the late 19th century. We’re missing entire swathes of infrastructure that are yet to even be conceived, so it could even be far longer than 20 years - but little chance of being “sooner” than that alas.

Option (2) happens if the EU seriously thinks it can ponce about over protecting the Kiev Borgias from “Russian Aggression” when they can’t even be bothered to report the news for months on end.

Option (3) happens the moment a power greater than ourselves (including “random cosmic chance” if you’re an atheist) - decides that “time’s up” for Planet Earth.

Winseer:
There are too many people in this country, and in the world as a whole. It’s therefore got nothing to do with “Immigration” at all - because we’re ALL born here on this same planet.

For the future:

(1) We go to the stars
(2) We cull mankind with WWIII
(3) Mankind experiences a die-back from a natural disaster that’s global

Of those three options - (1) Is still over 20 years away, just as Sports Cars were over 20 years away when the Automobile was originally invented in the late 19th century. We’re missing entire swathes of infrastructure that are yet to even be conceived, so it could even be far longer than 20 years - but little chance of being “sooner” than that alas.

Option (2) happens if the EU seriously thinks it can ponce about over protecting the Kiev Borgias from “Russian Aggression” when they can’t even be bothered to report the news for months on end.

Option (3) happens the moment a power greater than ourselves (including “random cosmic chance” if you’re an atheist) - decides that “time’s up” for Planet Earth.

  1. There are too many people in parts of the world where they don’t do sensible population/resource matching.

  2. There are only too many people here because of the bleeding heart Socialists,who don’t do the idea of the nation state :open_mouth: and who think that bringing the world’s population to live here will fix 1,allied to the cheap labour agenda of the bankers/CBI. :unamused:

As for EU v Russia I’d doubt if the average Australian or African or South American would even notice it even if it went nuclear.Which just leaves the question is anyone really stupid enough to take out a large part of the planet’s best food and water supplies and real estate in the form of a nuclear devastated Europe.

As for finding another planet like this one anywhere within range of the Starship Enterprise if at all in the universe,let alone being able to build enough of them to take everyone there even if they wanted to go,no chance.

Carryfast:
You’ve contradicted yourself.As I said the ‘pre WW2’ US,or UK economies,could never be called Fordist in terms of the high wage and resulting large scale consumer driven circle.While Ford certainly by then had introduced the idea.The fact was his competitors weren’t co operating with it.Hence the massive levels of industrial strife in the US which made our typically half hearted doomed to failure General Strike of 1926 look tame.

youtube.com/watch?v=m44DLk-IX1s

But the correct summary of this is that Ford was an early adopter of the thinking which takes his name, not a failed adopter of those ideas.

Moreover, the reason why Fordism never caught on immediately, is that Ford was getting ahead by putting other members of his class out of business through his high-road competition with them. Good for society, and good for Ford who was riding the wave which would wash the rest away, but clearly not good for the vested interests and autonomy of the majority of the capitalist class who would be washed away. Nor could those at risk of being washed away simply compete with Ford, because competition itself would wash their wealth away (and Ford already had the size, the technical know how and experience, and the head start on them, not to mention the ideological suitability to attack the rest of his own class in favour of the workers and the common good).

It was only after WW2 that there was really a push to consolidate production (either in public or private monopolies), and which basically put a lot of the ruling class out of business as independent owners (either through eroding unearned income and turning former owners into managers, or at least less substantial owners, or by forcing them to pool capital and join forces as shareholders in much larger monopoly businesses).

As for the Soviet Union no.The Socialist system is just another corrupt economic model based on a down trodden indoctrinated workforce for the benefit of a chosen hierarchy.Hence the alliance of non Fordist Capitalism and Chinese Communism that we’ve got now. :bulb:

The Soviet system had it faults, it just didn’t have them as fundamentally as pre-WW2 capitalism or pre-revolutionary Russia. I’m making a point akin to Churchill’s point that democracy has its faults, but nevertheless fewer than the alternatives.

The collectivisation of the means of production is economically superior for the masses to having a thousand private owners stitching the industry up for themselves and their families, competing with each other nominally but never willing to organise for the common good of the people (because organisation would involve fewer owners, with less personal autonomy, and a lower volume of unearned income for the whole class, whereas the primary beneficiaries would be the great masses of workers and the progress of human civilisation).

What caused the collapse of the USSR was not its state management of the economy per se (since that is what Britain did to win the war, and what all capitalist nations were doing post-WW2, albeit more subtly), but it’s exhausted working class and the rudderlessness and corruption that arose in its later stages, and indeed too little of the freedom and creativity that redistributive capitalism had in the 1960s and which contributed to huge technical innovations in the West.

In essence, when capitalism is redistributing and heavily state-managed for the common good, it cannot be beaten, because it’s nature is more balanced and flexible to change. But pre-WW2 as today, capitalism is not redistributing and is not heavily state-managed. It’s not attacking the self-serving rich, and the volume of unearned income, and the number of rentiers who feed off it, are growing rather than abating.

The housing market and the explosion of rent is a prime example of how a million landlords have got suckers firmly in worker’s pay packets, and how those who owned property in the 90s have their suckers in the pockets of those who didn’t (which at first glance seems like a generational war, but in the absence of inheritance taxes it’s really a class war, because owners tend to be better-off to begin with, and they tend to leave the assets to their children, so what young middle-class workers lose in rent, they gain in inherited wealth and parental assistance, whereas poor children only lose totally).

Rjan:
In essence, when capitalism is redistributing and heavily state-managed for the common good, it cannot be beaten

Blimey Rjan that’s exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you over countless posts.For that to work we need a Nationalist Labour government not a Socialist one dedicated to protectionist economics.You know like the one we ‘would’ have had ‘if’ Shore had won out in 1975 not Wilson and Callaghan. :bulb: :frowning:

On that note yes it was naive in the extreme to think that Farage and UKIP were ever about that agenda.But to be fair there wasn’t and still isn’t much alternative in that regard.‘Until’ ‘unless’ we get that three way split between Blairite Labour,Socialist Labour,and Nationalist Labour and let democratic natural selection do the rest. :bulb:

Carryfast:

Rjan:
In essence, when capitalism is redistributing and heavily state-managed for the common good, it cannot be beaten

Blimey Rjan that’s exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you over countless posts.

But most people would say a state which takes money from owners and gives it to workers, or arranges the laws and dynamics of the economic system to the same end, is a socialistic society more than it is a capitalist one.

Moreover, you missed the bit where I pointed out that by the 1970s workers had drained so much blood back that the capitalist vampire was white and moribund, so it’s not clear how much longer the system could have continued under those terms without either the vampire striking back or workers transitioning to an alternative society that didn’t have vampires. Ultimately, the vampire struck back, and workers who did not hang together were hanged separately.

For that to work we need a Nationalist Labour government not a Socialist one dedicated to protectionist economics.

Protectionism is just a form of market manipulation and regulation, and does not in itself solve the problem of capitalism. States were highly nationalistic (a form of regulation based on restricting flows of resources across political jurisdictions) in the 1930s, and fairly well-regulated in Europe in the 1970s, and neither prevented economic crisis.

What history does show us is that democratic political control needs to extend over almost all of the economy in order to perform it’s regulatory role over capitalism. Today we live in a world where there is inadequate political control over the global economy, and the institutions that regulate the European economy have lost legitimacy (because they are neither democratic nor acting paternalistically) and are coming under attack.

Rjan:

Carryfast:

Rjan:
In essence, when capitalism is redistributing and heavily state-managed for the common good, it cannot be beaten

Blimey Rjan that’s exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you over countless posts.

But most people would say a state which takes money from owners and gives it to workers, or arranges the laws and dynamics of the economic system to the same end, is a socialistic society more than it is a capitalist one.

Moreover, you missed the bit where I pointed out that by the 1970s workers had drained so much blood back that the capitalist vampire was white and moribund, so it’s not clear how much longer the system could have continued under those terms without either the vampire striking back or workers transitioning to an alternative society that didn’t have vampires. Ultimately, the vampire struck back, and workers who did not hang together were hanged separately.

For that to work we need a Nationalist Labour government not a Socialist one dedicated to protectionist economics.

Protectionism is just a form of market manipulation and regulation, and does not in itself solve the problem of capitalism. States were highly nationalistic (a form of regulation based on restricting flows of resources across political jurisdictions) in the 1930s, and fairly well-regulated in Europe in the 1970s, and neither prevented economic crisis.

What history does show us is that democratic political control needs to extend over almost all of the economy in order to perform it’s regulatory role over capitalism. Today we live in a world where there is inadequate political control over the global economy, and the institutions that regulate the European economy have lost legitimacy (because they are neither democratic nor acting paternalistically) and are coming under attack.

Firstly I think we can safely say that Fordist Capitalism within a Nationalistic protectionist regime fits the definition of re distributive and state managed.While by definition that can’t possibly be a Socialist Solution.

While it’s reasonable to say that the problems of the 1920’s and 30’s were too little Fordism/re distributive economics.Not too much protectionism.IE no one had the money to consume the goods that industry could turn out because too much money was being held back by the bankers/owners IE give too little amount of blood get too little amount of vampires.At least until the Vampires get so pished off they start attacking the blood donors and taking it for themselves.IE 1920’s/30’s industrial strife.

As opposed to the example of Eisenhower’s and Kennedy’s 1950’s/60’s US regime.In which it was proved that there is no limit to to the amount that the donors can give because the blood content of the donors is more than fed back in the form of the blood profits provided by the actions of the vampires.

Which can only mean that something else went wrong in the 1970’s,let alone the Thatcherite and Reaganite regimes of the 1980’s.Oh wait not enough protectionism and the blood profits provided by the vampires was thereby fed back,in large part,to German donors who then fed the extra blood profits back to the German vampires not the Brit and American ones.In large part to meet German war debt repayments which were conditional on maintaining a trade surplus situation created by Germans buying German and domestic wages based on the proceeds of exports.Added to later by the fat cat Oriental and Communist exporters and their non Fordist Capitalist importers.Who being non Fordist Socialists and Capitalists just forgot all about the need for Vampires and protectionism to keep the system going.On that note remind us where the US and UK economic growth and debt figures stand now as opposed to let’s say 1960-72. :bulb:

IE I’d guess that we are broadly in agreement regarding identifying the problem.Which just leaves that definition of the point where Capitalism turns from race to the bottom free markets into that unbeatable re distributive state managed beneficial version.One thing is certain we ain’t going to define it and find it under Corbyn’s Socialist Labour ideology.Which just leaves that question of what if Shore had won out in 1975. :bulb:

Carryfast:
Firstly I think we can safely say that Fordist Capitalism within a Nationalistic protectionist regime fits the definition of re distributive and state managed.

Yes, in the loose sense that we’re talking about 1960s capitalism. The problem is the “national” economies of that era had major international dependency on oil (as well as other raw materials). And although oil supplies are managed by states, they are not managed by our states, and the states that do precipitated in our economies a sudden crisis of demand and profits in 1973 that the postwar settlement never recovered from. The vampire struck back.

It’s like I say, the redistribution itself eventually causes a crisis in profits, because even monopoly firms depend on profit to function. Henry Ford depended on profit.

By the 1970s profits were probably as minimal as they could be (and the working class getting the full value of their productivity or more), because huge monopolies were living on fresh air and the taxpayer was acting as an ambulance service and life support for highly productive but profitless industries, while the private wealth of the old rich was dwindling aggressively, and finally inflation started to bite and so anyone with a penny in their pocket was having it picked.

A system based on the vampire biting your neck (profit), and then a IV line from him back to you (redistribution), with the vampire in the driving seat of the economy, still requires a certain amount of biting and blood loss, or else it requires you to vanquish the vampire altogether and take on all functions he was performing. And ultimately, the Labour Party wasn’t prepared to get into the driving seat and overturn capitalism, nor was anyone else anywhere else, and once we weren’t heading to socialism anymore, we’ve headed back to where the classes were in the 1930s again.

While by definition that can’t possibly be a Socialist Solution.

While it’s reasonable to say that the problems of the 1920’s and 30’s were too little Fordism/re distributive economics.Not too much protectionism.

Nationalism, in a sense that goes broader than mere economics, contributed to the world wars. Even with Fordist policies, nations still needed land, raw materials, trade on fair terms, and an end to predatory relations.

They needed, in essence, precisely what they implemented after WW2, and which squeezed the rich until their pips squeaked, which is why the rich would rather take their chance with war (which at least gives the rich in the victor nations a chance of finishing on top, whilst risking only the kind of losses they’d lose anyway under redistribution).

The nation state is now old hat and has nothing more to give us. We need to move on to more European and international integration, even if that is on different, better terms for workers than currently offered by today’s EU.

Rjan:

Carryfast:
Firstly I think we can safely say that Fordist Capitalism within a Nationalistic protectionist regime fits the definition of re distributive and state managed.

Yes, in the loose sense that we’re talking about 1960s capitalism. The problem is the “national” economies of that era had major international dependency on oil (as well as other raw materials). And although oil supplies are managed by states, they are not managed by our states, and the states that do precipitated in our economies a sudden crisis of demand and profits in 1973 that the postwar settlement never recovered from. The vampire struck back.

It’s like I say, the redistribution itself eventually causes a crisis in profits, because even monopoly firms depend on profit to function. Henry Ford depended on profit.

By the 1970s profits were probably as minimal as they could be (and the working class getting the full value of their productivity or more), because huge monopolies were living on fresh air and the taxpayer was acting as an ambulance service and life support for highly productive but profitless industries, while the private wealth of the old rich was dwindling aggressively, and finally inflation started to bite and so anyone with a penny in their pocket was having it picked.

A system based on the vampire biting your neck (profit), and then a IV line from him back to you (redistribution), with the vampire in the driving seat of the economy, still requires a certain amount of biting and blood loss, or else it requires you to vanquish the vampire altogether and take on all functions he was performing. And ultimately, the Labour Party wasn’t prepared to get into the driving seat and overturn capitalism, nor was anyone else anywhere else, and once we weren’t heading to socialism anymore, we’ve headed back to where the classes were in the 1930s again.

While by definition that can’t possibly be a Socialist Solution.

While it’s reasonable to say that the problems of the 1920’s and 30’s were too little Fordism/re distributive economics.Not too much protectionism.

Nationalism, in a sense that goes broader than mere economics, contributed to the world wars. Even with Fordist policies, nations still needed land, raw materials, trade on fair terms, and an end to predatory relations.

They needed, in essence, precisely what they implemented after WW2, and which squeezed the rich until their pips squeaked, which is why the rich would rather take their chance with war (which at least gives the rich in the victor nations a chance of finishing on top, whilst risking only the kind of losses they’d lose anyway under redistribution).

The nation state is now old hat and has nothing more to give us. We need to move on to more European and international integration, even if that is on different, better terms for workers than currently offered by today’s EU.

There seem to be a number of false conclusions there.Starting with an exaggerated view of the effects of oil dependency v supply.In which at least us from the mid-late 1970’s and the US were in a far better situation of self sufficiency than Germany for example.While for ‘some’ reason the German economy as usual seemed to suffer less from the 1973 on oil situation than ours did.When ours would have been expected to be far better insulated from that at least from the mid 1970’s.IE yet another example of the government not applying protectionist measures in which UK produced oil would have been expected to be kept in artificially higher supply in the domestic market at the expense of oil exports.

As for Fordist re distribution resulting in less profits,that goes against all the laws of Fordist economics.When the fact is higher wages just result in higher economic growth and higher levels of employment and higher levels of consumption.Also bearing in mind that a 10% increase in just the wage component of costs doesn’t mean a corresponding 10% increase in ‘overall’ unit price of the product nor a 10% ‘overall’ reduction in the profit margin.

While a better explanation of the 1970’s collapse in profitability would be the effective loss of Fordist re distribution in the form of wages falling behind price increases.In large part resulting from that unnecessary oil price situation,and Callaghan’s ridiculous idea of wage controls in the face of massive price increases resulting in lower wages in real terms.In addition to market over capacity and saturation caused by open door import policies largely resulting from EU membership.The fate of the UK automotive industry being a classic example of all that.To the economically suicidal point of public money being used to keep UK manufacturing alive in the face of a flood of EEC imports.

As for international governmental integration and economic inter dependency as opposed to Nation State protectionism.We’ve already got that in the form of the global free market economy and the EU.The result being race to the bottom economics and an undemocratic economic cluster zb that results in the difference between Greece as opposed to Germany for example and the Chinese government telling us we must stay under the undemocratic Federal rule of the EU.With our net contribution and massive trade deficit to show for it.While still supplying oil and fish stocks to our European competitors that we could use to better effect in the domestic economy to make ourselves richer while at the same time reducing the depletion rate.On that note I’ll take the Nationalist protectionist option thanks.

While as I’ve said no the major European wars were the result of the ‘defence’ of the Nation State ‘against’ the ‘aggression’ and expansion of the Federation.

Carryfast:
There seem to be a number of false conclusions there.Starting with an exaggerated view of the effects of oil dependency v supply.In which at least us from the mid-late 1970’s and the US were in a far better situation of self sufficiency than Germany for example.While for ‘some’ reason the German economy as usual seemed to suffer less from the 1973 on oil situation than ours did.When ours would have been expected to be far better insulated from that at least from the mid 1970’s.IE yet another example of the government not applying protectionist measures in which UK produced oil would have been expected to be kept in artificially higher supply in the domestic market at the expense of oil exports.

Just to be clear, I’m not locating the problems of global capitalism as being fundamentally caused by the 1973 oil shock, it just triggered the crisis and the vampire finally struck back.

What I am saying is that it’s precisely an example of how when other states control essential components of the economic system, or if nobody really controls them, unmanageable disruption will regularly arise from that part of the system. If we respond entirely within our own political domain, such as by building big oil bunkers within our own borders, then prices will go up to pay for this, and they’ll just turn the supply taps off twice or ten times as long, or redirect the oil to their closer allies or opportunists waging a trade war, or the oil wells will be taken over or destroyed by external events.

As for the UK prioritising it’s own supply, that’s just a return to beggar thy neighbour. Other states, to avoid ruinous disruptions, then have to secure their own supplies (at any military cost), and the supplies they seek to secure militarily may well be ours. Or their economy collapses, and they become failed states, or hotbeds of guerrilla action, or so forth.

It’s only by integrated political control that such oil (or other resources) is secured properly, and distributed according to principles like fairness and need (and rationing, if required, is imposed in an orderly and legitimate fashion, and appropriate compensations and compromises made elsewhere at the same time if necessary).

As for Fordist re distribution resulting in less profits,that goes against all the laws of Fordist economics.

It resulted in less profits for the capitalists he put out of business, and it resulted in lower rates of return on capital. Clearly, a 5% return on £1m is better than 30% return on £1k, and with each iteration it takes longer to accrue the capital needed to fund the next iteration. And in some cases, it will be found that there isn’t a potential next iteration at all - because production is as massive as it can be, and the capitalist owners with their duplicate competitive endeavours have been reduced to the fewest numbers there can be (usually 1, the monopolist).

Another problem is that today there aren’t so many obvious unfulfilled consumer needs. Cars were things people obviously wanted, and by having the mobility offered by cars that itself created huge new economic potentials. Today, our economy can already provide for all reasonable needs (it’s merely a question of distribution). The rich don’t seem to have an abundance of new products that we’re all going to want in a few years and which will make us massively more productive.

When the fact is higher wages just result in higher economic growth and higher levels of employment and higher levels of consumption.Also bearing in mind that a 10% increase in just the wage component of costs doesn’t mean a corresponding 10% increase in ‘overall’ unit price of the product nor a 10% ‘overall’ reduction in the profit margin.

Ultimately it does mean that. If wages go up 10% along the full chain of production, then the unit cost will typically go up by about the same. That will act as a transfer from unearned income to earned income, because those who live on wages will pay higher prices but receive higher wages, whereas those who live on dividends will pay higher prices but not receive the same dividends as before (which is a loss relative to consumer prices).

That’s why the Tories and Blairites constantly want competition in consumer prices, because to reduce consumer prices they normally force down wages or aggravate the conditions of work that workers experience without putting wages up, but they do not force down profits and dividends, so wage-earners are typically disfavoured by consumer price competition whereas dividend-recipients are favoured.

As for international governmental integration and economic inter dependency as opposed to Nation State protectionism.We’ve already got that in the form of the global free market economy and the EU.

But the EU is currently underpinned by politicians who think in terms of neoliberalism and the free market. It’s not an iron law. The EU could just as easily be driven by socialists.