What would you get done for this

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

starting work at 4 a.m,getting your truck at 6 a.m, putting your card in and just driving,no manual entries,same as end of shift you take card out and go home[following morning you dont put manual entry in for real finish time,BUT you always take your start time from 4 a.m, so you never do over 15 hrs.you do this 5 days a week,48 weeks a year.
so what would you,the co get done ,fine,ban,jail, what :question:
i think i know the answer , but ive had more than one say as they dont do over 15 hrs its o.k,and your more likely to get done for putting in a incorrect manual entry than you would for putting none at all

carrying on from that question what is the time from 4 a.m -6 a.m classed as,ive always believed it to be other work/rest, not p.o.a
i class it mainly as rest as im sat in canteen,either drinking coffee ,reading paper,or asleep.but others say as i cant dispose of my time freely[i.e walk out door ,go down mcdonalds etc] it cant be rest,but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs, so what is it,they say other work :question:

2

It is only POA if you are told of the wait time before you commence it.

Showing no ‘daily vehicle check time’ will arouse suspicions by VOSA also not showing any ‘end of duty time’ may twig their senses

If for some reason VOSA believe you may not be showing all your days work then they can simply visit your workplace and check on it.

I’ve no idea what the fine(s) would be if VOSA did find out

PS - REST is the being able to dispose of your time freely - BREAK is the one you would use in the situation you describe in the OP if not using POA

It certainly would not be OTHER WORK as you are not working

3

ady1:
starting work at 4 a.m,getting your truck at 6 a.m, putting your card in and just driving,no manual entries,same as end of shift you take card out and go home[following morning you dont put manual entry in for real finish time,BUT you always take your start time from 4 a.m, so you never do over 15 hrs.you do this 5 days a week,48 weeks a year.
so what would you,the co get done ,fine,ban,jail, what :question:
i think i know the answer , but ive had more than one say as they dont do over 15 hrs its o.k,and your more likely to get done for putting in a incorrect manual entry than you would for putting none at all

carrying on from that question what is the time from 4 a.m -6 a.m classed as,ive always believed it to be other work/rest, not p.o.a
i class it mainly as rest as im sat in canteen,either drinking coffee ,reading paper,or asleep.but others say as i cant dispose of my time freely[i.e walk out door ,go down mcdonalds etc] it cant be rest,but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs, so what is it,they say other work :question:

You’d be prosecuted for falsification of tachograph records most probably. Several of our guys recently went to court for that very thing. It was the time sheets they handed in that gave the clue that they where not recording all their duty. Few hundred quid fine, and i’m pretty sure it actually counts as fraud.
You can record your waiting time as rest. Just make sure you record the fact that you booked on as work.

4

thanks rog/mike, its pretty much what i thought but its nice to get it confirmed

5

ady1:
starting work at 4 a.m,getting your truck at 6 a.m, putting your card in and just driving,no manual entries,same as end of shift you take card out and go home[following morning you dont put manual entry in for real finish time,BUT you always take your start time from 4 a.m, so you never do over 15 hrs.you do this 5 days a week,48 weeks a year.
so what would you,the co get done ,fine,ban,jail, what :question:
i think i know the answer , but ive had more than one say as they dont do over 15 hrs its o.k,and your more likely to get done for putting in a incorrect manual entry than you would for putting none at all

carrying on from that question what is the time from 4 a.m -6 a.m classed as,ive always believed it to be other work/rest, not p.o.a
i class it mainly as rest as im sat in canteen,either drinking coffee ,reading paper,or asleep.but others say as i cant dispose of my time freely[i.e walk out door ,go down mcdonalds etc] it cant be rest,

but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs

, so what is it,they say other work :question:

If you are waiting 2 hours every day, you can record it as poa as you know beforehand how long you will be waiting
no need to be told every day

but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs

why not, theres no limit on poa

6

ady1:
starting work at 4 a.m,getting your truck at 6 a.m, putting your card in and just driving,no manual entries,same as end of shift you take card out and go home[following morning you dont put manual entry in for real finish time,BUT you always take your start time from 4 a.m, so you never do over 15 hrs.you do this 5 days a week,48 weeks a year.
so what would you,the co get done ,fine,ban,jail, what :question:
i think i know the answer , but ive had more than one say as they dont do over 15 hrs its o.k,and your more likely to get done for putting in a incorrect manual entry than you would for putting none at all

I’ve no idea what the penalty would be but I’d bet money that never putting anything down for the time is far far worse than the occasional mistake in manual entries.
As Mike-C said basically you’re falsifying your tachograph records, a very serious offence I would have thought.
Best start recording the waiting time mate :wink:

ady1:
i class it mainly as rest as im sat in canteen,either drinking coffee ,reading paper,or asleep.but others say as i cant dispose of my time freely[i.e walk out door ,go down mcdonalds etc] it cant be rest,but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs, so what is it,they say other work :question:

Just to clarify the point about rest, as you’re at work and presumably getting paid and under the instruction of your employer it certainly can’t be rest, rest requires you to be able to dispose of your time freely.
Break on the other hand only requires that the time can be used for recuperation and you do not have to be able to dispose of your time freely so you could use that.

It may seem a bit pedantic to differentiate between rest and break in this way especially as it’s the same tachograph mode symbol … well it would be if you bothered to record it anyway :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

But as you can see from your own post there can be confusion if you don’t understand the difference between rest and break and in this case you would be able to answer the “others” when they say “it can’t be rest” :wink:

As for “other work”, well there’s certainly nothing to stop you recording it as other work and it would be legal but why would you want to :confused:
Sat in the canteen drinking coffee ec’t … use break :wink:

205:

ady1:
but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs

why not, theres no limit on poa

I think he means because he doesn’t know in advance how long he’ll be waiting, 2 hours, 3 hours or 4 hours, strictly speaking you should know beforehand or have someone tell you now and again how much longer you’re likely to be there :wink:

7

tachograph:
I think he means because he doesn’t know in advance how long he’ll be waiting, 2 hours, 3 hours or 4 hours, strictly speaking you should know beforehand or have someone tell you now and again how much longer you’re likely to be there :wink:

would like to add if it something you do on a regular basis

Mobile workers do not need to be formally notified about a PoA and its duration in advance.
It is enough that they know about it (and the foreseeable duration), in advance.

so if you do a drop every day and it always takes 1 hour of if you have to wait in the canteen for your truck and it takes on average 1 hour that what would be classed as POA

8

tachograph:

205:

ady1:
but it cant be p.o.a as you could be in there 2/3/4 hrs

why not, theres no limit on poa

I think he means because he doesn’t know in advance how long he’ll be waiting, 2 hours, 3 hours or 4 hours, strictly speaking you should know beforehand or have someone tell you now and again how much longer you’re likely to be there :wink:

I would say that, ‘you know in advance it’s going to be 2 hours and could easily be 4’, so that’s that bit of the rule covered. IF you wanted to record it as POA, you could.

9

Why do you start work at 4am if the truck doesn’t arrive till 6 or 7?

If you start work at 4am everyday you have to be finished before 1700,to get an 11 hour rest period in.

Remember 13 + 11 = 24

10

Offences; the easy one to prove, fail to keep record in Magistrates Court the maximum fine is £ 5 000 per offence. May also lead to a trip for tea and biscuits with the Traffic Commissioner.
The much more serious offence is ‘false record,’ which may be dealt with in either the Magistrates or Crown Court (harsher sentences). Maximum fine is again £ 5 000 and free accommodation for up to 2 years, at the end of which you may find the TC still invites you for tea and biscuits, just don’t expect to leave with your HGV licence intact.

11

ROG:
‘end of duty time’

What the hell are you meant to be doing at the end of duty?? Anotehr walk around check to make sure your lights are still working before you go to bed??

12

scottishcruiser:

ROG:
‘end of duty time’

What the hell are you meant to be doing at the end of duty?? Anotehr walk around check to make sure your lights are still working before you go to bed??

OK, you take out tacho and walk 5 mins to the clock off machine or go to traffic office to hand in paperwork - if that time is not mentioned and is checked with the clock card or your TM, when asked, says that this or that was done after you got out the cab - how you gonna explain that ?

13

ROG:

scottishcruiser:

ROG:
‘end of duty time’

What the hell are you meant to be doing at the end of duty?? Anotehr walk around check to make sure your lights are still working before you go to bed??

OK, you take out tacho and walk 5 mins to the clock off machine or go to traffic office to hand in paperwork - if that time is not mentioned and is checked with the clock card or your TM, when asked, says that this or that was done after you got out the cab - how you gonna explain that ?

What about when you pull into a parking space, stick the handbrake on, kill the engine and turn tacho to rest to commence your daily rest period? Keys are staying in the ignition so you know where they are in the morning when you fall out the bunk so no need to record any other work at the end of the shift.

14

In our yard we dont use POA. Salaried so hours dont matter.

Turn up for shift at say 4am, lorry not loaded so go sit in canteen- dont know how long it will take!

Then sit and do paperwork when loaded in canteen, then go find lorry, do checks /fit tacho - leave ( if it isnt defective!!!) :unamused:

Return to yard - fuel up, vehicle check, canteen to sort paperwork, walk to transport office to debrief- argue with muppets in office, clock out

I know that most drivers dont fill in their tacho to show start time or finish time, so how deep in the brown stuff are they gonna be??
Plus our company continually route you out for over 13hrs and expect you to just do it, therefore forcing you to reduce rest!!

Reducing is drivers choice is it not■■?

So if all the drivers turned arund and said they wont work over 13 hrs as they need the full daily rest the company cant force you to drive tired as it is dangerous!Their usual answer is " oh but you can work 15 hrs!!"
Yes i can…but i dont have to!!

What do you think?

15

demonbiker:
In our yard we dont use POA. Salaried so hours dont matter.

Turn up for shift at say 4am, lorry not loaded so go sit in canteen- dont know how long it will take!

Then sit and do paperwork when loaded in canteen, then go find lorry, do checks /fit tacho - leave ( if it isnt defective!!!) :unamused:

Return to yard - fuel up, vehicle check, canteen to sort paperwork, walk to transport office to debrief- argue with muppets in office, clock out

I know that most drivers dont fill in their tacho to show start time or finish time, so how deep in the brown stuff are they gonna be??

See post from geebee45 above. 5 shifts in a week, 5 false records at £5000 a pop, £25,000. That’s pretty deep for a week, for a month or 6 that’s gotta plumb new depths. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: Probably wouldn’t be that much but if it is happening every day then they aren’t just going to get a slap on the wrist, more likely a smaller fine and a short suspension of their licence.

demonbiker:
Plus our company continually route you out for over 13hrs and expect you to just do it, therefore forcing you to reduce rest!!

Reducing is drivers choice is it not■■?

No, as far as the tacho rules go it is not. The company only have to schedule the work so it can be completed within the confines of the regulations. If you have a reduced rest available they are within their right to schedule the work accordingly.

However, that’s the legal aspect from the point of view of the EU Hours Rules and if you said you felt 9 hours rest was not enough to make you feel fit to drive it would be a big risk for the company to still send you out in these days of “Blame ‘n’ Claim.”

16

Coffeeholic:

demonbiker:
Reducing is drivers choice is it not■■?

No, as far as the tacho rules go it is not. The company only have to schedule the work so it can be completed within the confines of the regulations. If you have a reduced rest available they are within their right to schedule the work accordingly.

SURLEY THIS IS FORCING A REDUCTION? THE REGS SAY 11HRS IN A 24 HR PERIOD, ANYTHING ELSE I WOULD SAY IS FORCING ME TO REDUCE UNLESS I AGREE BEFORE HAND?

However, that’s the legal aspect from the point of view of the EU Hours Rules and if you said you felt 9 hours rest was not enough to make you feel fit to drive it would be a big risk for the company to still send you out in these days of “Blame ‘n’ Claim.”

IF I SAID I WAS TOO TIRED TO DRIVE THEY WOULD SAY WHY TURN UP THEN? OR TRY TO DISCIPLINE ME FOR REFUSING A REASONBLE REQUEST OR TRY TO SEND ME HOME UNPAID OR TRY TO FORCE ME TO GO ANYWAY, THEY WOULD SEE IT AS TRYING TO GET OUT OF DOING ROUTE, WOULD BE A MINEFIELD! :frowning:

AS FOR TACHO’S THEY SHOULD BE SHOWING E.O.D AND S.O.D ON TACHO ,WITH TIME OF CLOCKING IN/OUT ,BEFORE MOVING TRUCK AS OTHER WORK

17

demonbiker:

Coffeeholic:

demonbiker:
Reducing is drivers choice is it not■■?

No, as far as the tacho rules go it is not. The company only have to schedule the work so it can be completed within the confines of the regulations. If you have a reduced rest available they are within their right to schedule the work accordingly.

SURLEY THIS IS FORCING A REDUCTION? THE REGS SAY 11HRS IN A 24 HR PERIOD, ANYTHING ELSE I WOULD SAY IS FORCING ME TO REDUCE UNLESS I AGREE BEFORE HAND?

However, that’s the legal aspect from the point of view of the EU Hours Rules and if you said you felt 9 hours rest was not enough to make you feel fit to drive it would be a big risk for the company to still send you out in these days of “Blame ‘n’ Claim.”

IF I SAID I WAS TOO TIRED TO DRIVE THEY WOULD SAY WHY TURN UP THEN? OR TRY TO DISCIPLINE ME FOR REFUSING A REASONBLE REQUEST OR TRY TO SEND ME HOME UNPAID OR TRY TO FORCE ME TO GO ANYWAY, THEY WOULD SEE IT AS TRYING TO GET OUT OF DOING ROUTE, WOULD BE A MINEFIELD! :frowning:

It is a minefield but they aren’t doing anything illegal by scheduling a 9 hour daily rest if the driver has one available.

demonbiker:
AS FOR TACHO’S THEY SHOULD BE SHOWING E.O.D AND S.O.D ON TACHO ,WITH TIME OF CLOCKING IN/OUT ,BEFORE MOVING TRUCK AS OTHER WORK

EOD and SOD or SDR and EDR are not legal requirements, that is just a company rule. Time spent away from the vehicle should be recorded by filling in the grid thing on the back of the chart or by manual entry on a digi tacho.

18

I can bet that 90 % of our drivers dont fill in the back of the chart!! :cry:

This could get expensive!