As the title suggests, what needs to change to recruit and retain drivers we all know it’s not entirely about the money a great many other factors are at play here, I could rattle on all day about what needs doing but I’d rather ask the experts.
I’ll kick it off.
A maximum 12 hour day
Possibly divide it up then.
What needs done to recruit drivers?
What needs done to retain drivers?
I think these are distinct because new recruits know only from the outside looking in. What you imagine a job is like will rarely be what it is in reality and new recruits may not even know how bad things can be.
My particular opinion is that an employee’s market helps pay and conditions no end. At the moment across the work spectrum it is harder and harder to replace staff easily, so companies will need to stop treating staff so atrociously. I think what we are going to see is a workforce that is a lot more mobile and can literally leave one job with an expectation of getting another one more or less straightaway. It hasn’t been like that for a long time.
I say, bring it on, increase the wages and give people a chance of being able to actually afford to buy or rent a decent home. If you say to someone here is a job, paying x amount, and this is what you need to do to get it, it makes it a lot easier. If people don’t have that they can’t see the wood for the trees and go into a spiral of despair and hopelessness.
Hopefully it will get to a stage where all the minimum wage plus 10p outfits just get wiped out through drivers boycotting them.
Simplify WTD.
No reductions etc with the philosophy that a driver shouldn’t need to plan working hours beyond the week that they’re currently in.
12hr max shift would force that in a way.
mike68:
As the title suggests, what needs to change to recruit and retain drivers we all know it’s not entirely about the money a great many other factors are at play here, I could rattle on all day about what needs doing but I’d rather ask the experts.I’ll kick it off.
A maximum 12 hour day
Reduces pay… I’d rather see “All hours over 8 - paid at time and a half” - meaning that if the firm keeps you out on the road too long - THEY pay for it in cash whilst the driver pays for it in time.
There’s this thing with firms paying the top dollar (Pre-Covid) where the full timers sooo resent the differential agency are getting, they’ll make whatever moves necessasry to ensure a quick turnover of agency staff…
That firm - then doesn’t get a bad reputation, until and unless a number of other firms - then over-bid them for the drivers…
…Which is why (observation) firms like John Lewis, Royal Mail, and Asda - are drowned out of the jobs market by just above everyone else seriously trying to recruit overbidding them…
If you could get £20ph at a firm that leaves you alone to do the damned job, instead of watching you like hawks, or even had driver-facing cameras or full time staff watching your progress on the Isotrac/Microlise…
You’d take the Laissez-faire pound-for-pound over the Spanish Inquisition one - wouldn’t you?
Now… That time has come!
Meanwhile, in Supplier land - having now left that job, - I’d ask are they packing drivers back into those “cooler” waiting rooms again, where you once more - are not allowed to stay in your cab, and cannot take a break on the bay, even if it takes 3-4 hours to tip you… ?
You only have to look at the companies that used to have no recruitment issues, supermarkets fuel companies etc, and see how the contracts for drivers have changed for the worse as well as those companies that shifted the transport to contractors, which was another way of cheapening the driver’s contracts.
Those who offered good terms never had, don’t have, never will have, recruitment or staff retention issues.
Its pay, conditions, hours, enhanced rates for OT nights shifts etc, respect treatment and appreciation of staff, conditions of work, type of work, equipment maintenance and provision of etc , overall attitude within the company, are the drivers a necessary evil or part and parcel of what makes the company work well for the benefit of everyone whilst making a decent profit.
Also in successful operations drivers tend to get the jobs/routes which suit them and they enjoy, not necessarily just the easiest jobs, but jobs that suit the attitude and competence of each driver, but that means the company has to get to know their staff and their individual strengths and weaknesses.
All in all, at the best operations little needs to change, if anything, if it aint broke don’t fix it.
Other operations maybe should look back into the past to when they had no recruitment and retention issues, and see if they could learn something and start to put things right.
The other thing is, when an operator makes mistakes in recruitment and realise they’ve employed a few numpties who maybe don’t have much of future in the job and are of no benefit to the company overall, instead of immediate knee jerk reactions and dumbing down of the job because said numpties do what anyone could have predicted, maybe take the bull by the horns kick the numpties into touch and allow the majority of good staff to carry on as they always have done…ie skill the job up not deskill it, its better for the industry and everyone who should be in it.
As for agency, well they don’t like it but they will have to go back to picking up the left overs, full time permanent employees get first knockings and thats how it should be, if agency want the better work they can apply and go full time, some here keep telling everyone they’re on a better rate as agency (they’re not everywhere but don’t let the truth get in the way eh?) and that better rate comes with some penalties, get used to it, you ain’t doing the company a favour by turning in you’re filling in a temporary shortage.
Winseer:
mike68:
As the title suggests, what needs to change to recruit and retain drivers we all know it’s not entirely about the money a great many other factors are at play here, I could rattle on all day about what needs doing but I’d rather ask the experts.I’ll kick it off.
A maximum 12 hour day
Reduces pay… I’d rather see “All hours over 8 - paid at time and a half” - meaning that if the firm keeps you out on the road too long - THEY pay for it in cash whilst the driver pays for it in time.
I’m not for a drastic reduction in hours, this business where a driver is paid a day rate only to see that day extended to 12-15hrs regularly is one issue that needs addressing, legally binding contracted hours would be a benefit for many drivers.
The issue for employers with this system is you cannot be forced to work overtime.
The end of the average 55hr working week in the job.
The average working week in the UK has actually fallen over the past couple of years from 36.4hrs before the pandemic to 34.2hrs, meanwhile in the same time period ours is going up. You’re not going to attract people who leave education expecting to go into a job working normal hours or attract people working normal hours into a job that’s got 50% to 100% more. They already begrudge doing a couple of hours overtime IN A WEEK, they’re not going to want to bang in 11-12hr days on a daily basis. And the worst part about the hours we do is there’s absolutely no need for them in many cases. Take the fridge boys, it’s not uncommon for half their week to be spent just waiting. Hell even what I do which is own contract there’s an hour a day that could be removed if there was less waiting time.
Hell even many lorry drivers who’ve been driving for years don’t want it. Many are using the recent increases in the wages not to put more money in their pocket but to buy more of their time back. If they’re getting a 20% or more rise they’re wanting to do four days a week instead of the 5 they’re currently doing. The smarter companies are starting to figure this out…I saw an advert for Biffa doing hook loaders for council household waste sites and the job was advertised as “any start time in the morning to suit you”, “days to suit.” Even a local haulier who I once laughed down the phone at when I enquired about a job some time ago was advertising jobs with a considerable wage rise and “3,4 or 5 days to suit”. I’m seeing more and more jobs advertised as 4 day weeks, usually 4 on, 4 off which is a work pattern that is great for those without kids. Here’s another one doing animal feed…“Working 4 days/week on a Monday-Saturday 3 week rotating shift pattern, which offers 5 consecutive days off every 3 weeks and every 3rd Saturday off.” So some companies have figured it out and figured a way to make a 4 day working week work. I do 37-40hrs, the recent wage increases in the area mean I’m earning the same as I was doing 55-60hrs just a few years ago. You cannot believe how much of a difference it makes to the job doing a regular 35-40hr week, how much you get your life back.
Conor:
The end of the average 55hr working week in the job.The average working week in the UK has actually fallen over the past couple of years from 36.4hrs before the pandemic to 34.2hrs, meanwhile in the same time period ours is going up. You’re not going to attract people who leave education expecting to go into a job working normal hours or attract people working normal hours into a job that’s got 50% to 100% more. They already begrudge doing a couple of hours overtime IN A WEEK, they’re not going to want to bang in 11-12hr days on a daily basis. And the worst part about the hours we do is there’s absolutely no need for them in many cases. Take the fridge boys, it’s not uncommon for half their week to be spent just waiting. Hell even what I do which is own contract there’s an hour a day that could be removed if there was less waiting time.
Hell even many lorry drivers who’ve been driving for years don’t want it. Many are using the recent increases in the wages not to put more money in their pocket but to buy more of their time back. If they’re getting a 20% or more rise they’re wanting to do four days a week instead of the 5 they’re currently doing. The smarter companies are starting to figure this out…I saw an advert for Biffa doing hook loaders for council household waste sites and the job was advertised as “any start time in the morning to suit you”, “days to suit.” Even a local haulier who I once laughed down the phone at when I enquired about a job some time ago was advertising jobs with a considerable wage rise and “3,4 or 5 days to suit”. I’m seeing more and more jobs advertised as 4 day weeks, usually 4 on, 4 off which is a work pattern that is great for those without kids. Here’s another one doing animal feed…“Working 4 days/week on a Monday-Saturday 3 week rotating shift pattern, which offers 5 consecutive days off every 3 weeks and every 3rd Saturday off.” So some companies have figured it out and figured a way to make a 4 day working week work. I do 37-40hrs, the recent wage increases in the area mean I’m earning the same as I was doing 55-60hrs just a few years ago. You cannot believe how much of a difference it makes to the job doing a regular 35-40hr week, how much you get your life back.
Aye your almost right Conor. 3 weeks ago I saw a job advertised for 4 or 5 days a week you choose. I rang up and said I wanted to work 4 days. "Yes we can do that, come and have an interview " they said. So I get to the interview and all is going great until I asked what 4 days would they like me to work…oh no it was a 5 day week with every other week being a 6 day. FFS! I gave them both barrels and let them know why they cannot get drivers.
I’d trade easier work for longer hours and less hourly rate.
Although same hours in a day but less days makes a lot of sense combined with that.
12-13 hour shift max, 4 days a week, distance work only, no multi drop, no handball would cover all the bases for me at £12-15 per hour possibly less.
Unfortunately that’s not the plan which the government has in mind for the industry it’s then just a case of lipstick on a pig.Going by the government’s ‘plan for rail’ it’s game over.
mike68:
A maximum 12 hour day
+1…
12 on 12 off end of.
Scrap the Dcpc.
Better facilities.
Mo’ money.
Conor:
The end of the average 55hr working week in the job.The average working week in the UK has actually fallen over the past couple of years from 36.4hrs before the pandemic to 34.2hrs, meanwhile in the same time period ours is going up. You’re not going to attract people who leave education expecting to go into a job working normal hours or attract people working normal hours into a job that’s got 50% to 100% more. They already begrudge doing a couple of hours overtime IN A WEEK, they’re not going to want to bang in 11-12hr days on a daily basis. And the worst part about the hours we do is there’s absolutely no need for them in many cases. Take the fridge boys, it’s not uncommon for half their week to be spent just waiting. Hell even what I do which is own contract there’s an hour a day that could be removed if there was less waiting time.
Hell even many lorry drivers who’ve been driving for years don’t want it. Many are using the recent increases in the wages not to put more money in their pocket but to buy more of their time back. If they’re getting a 20% or more rise they’re wanting to do four days a week instead of the 5 they’re currently doing. The smarter companies are starting to figure this out…I saw an advert for Biffa doing hook loaders for council household waste sites and the job was advertised as “any start time in the morning to suit you”, “days to suit.” Even a local haulier who I once laughed down the phone at when I enquired about a job some time ago was advertising jobs with a considerable wage rise and “3,4 or 5 days to suit”. I’m seeing more and more jobs advertised as 4 day weeks, usually 4 on, 4 off which is a work pattern that is great for those without kids. Here’s another one doing animal feed…“Working 4 days/week on a Monday-Saturday 3 week rotating shift pattern, which offers 5 consecutive days off every 3 weeks and every 3rd Saturday off.” So some companies have figured it out and figured a way to make a 4 day working week work. I do 37-40hrs, the recent wage increases in the area mean I’m earning the same as I was doing 55-60hrs just a few years ago. You cannot believe how much of a difference it makes to the job doing a regular 35-40hr week, how much you get your life back.
The farce that is POA also needs looking at, as you say a good deal of drivers time is spent waiting if the job was planned and organised properly the working week in many cases could be greatly reduced nobody in this day and age needs to be at work for 60+ hours a week, I moved to days a couple of years ago and I try to keep overtime to around 10 hrs a week the difference it makes to my life style is huge.
yourhavingalarf:
mike68:
A maximum 12 hour day+1…
12 on 12 off end of.
Scrap the Dcpc.
Better facilities.
Mo’ money.
I would say the DCPC is a good idea in its current form its not fit for purpose, when you pass the rudimentary test that allows you to drive LGV’s you have not been taught anything else.
I couldn’t fill out a taco card and I knew absolutely bugger all about anything related to the job, it needs to be made relevant for the end user.
msgyorkie:
Conor:
The end of the average 55hr working week in the job.The average working week in the UK has actually fallen over the past couple of years from 36.4hrs before the pandemic to 34.2hrs, meanwhile in the same time period ours is going up. You’re not going to attract people who leave education expecting to go into a job working normal hours or attract people working normal hours into a job that’s got 50% to 100% more. They already begrudge doing a couple of hours overtime IN A WEEK, they’re not going to want to bang in 11-12hr days on a daily basis. And the worst part about the hours we do is there’s absolutely no need for them in many cases. Take the fridge boys, it’s not uncommon for half their week to be spent just waiting. Hell even what I do which is own contract there’s an hour a day that could be removed if there was less waiting time.
Hell even many lorry drivers who’ve been driving for years don’t want it. Many are using the recent increases in the wages not to put more money in their pocket but to buy more of their time back. If they’re getting a 20% or more rise they’re wanting to do four days a week instead of the 5 they’re currently doing. The smarter companies are starting to figure this out…I saw an advert for Biffa doing hook loaders for council household waste sites and the job was advertised as “any start time in the morning to suit you”, “days to suit.” Even a local haulier who I once laughed down the phone at when I enquired about a job some time ago was advertising jobs with a considerable wage rise and “3,4 or 5 days to suit”. I’m seeing more and more jobs advertised as 4 day weeks, usually 4 on, 4 off which is a work pattern that is great for those without kids. Here’s another one doing animal feed…“Working 4 days/week on a Monday-Saturday 3 week rotating shift pattern, which offers 5 consecutive days off every 3 weeks and every 3rd Saturday off.” So some companies have figured it out and figured a way to make a 4 day working week work. I do 37-40hrs, the recent wage increases in the area mean I’m earning the same as I was doing 55-60hrs just a few years ago. You cannot believe how much of a difference it makes to the job doing a regular 35-40hr week, how much you get your life back.
Aye your almost right Conor. 3 weeks ago I saw a job advertised for 4 or 5 days a week you choose. I rang up and said I wanted to work 4 days. "Yes we can do that, come and have an interview " they said. So I get to the interview and all is going great until I asked what 4 days would they like me to work…oh no it was a 5 day week with every other week being a 6 day. FFS! I gave them both barrels and let them know why they cannot get drivers.
Yup.
I phoned one up,who was advertising a 4 day week.
Was a load of ■■■■■■■■.
I think over the next maybe 5-10 years. i dont think there will be much more tramping as a role. I can see it getting less and less people. the younger gen just don’t seem intrested in sleeping in a layby in a truck all wèek.
I can personally see it changing to digs to attract the next generation
Themoocher:
I think over the next maybe 5-10 years. i dont think there will be much more tramping as a role. I can see it getting less and less people. the younger gen just don’t seem intrested in sleeping in a layby in a truck all wèek.
I can personally see it changing to digs to attract the next generation
Yes’n’no.
No nights out? Yes.
Digs? No.
.
Local day drivers do pick ups and take to depot. Night drivers take to hub. Long distance do trailer swops.
.
No-one will be away from their own bed…
.
.
Jobs are being split, broken down, specialised, Dumbed down, whatever?
.
A truck with a sleeping driver in it? Waste.
.
.
Doesn’t mean I’m in favour of it, just a thought.
Themoocher:
I think over the next maybe 5-10 years. i dont think there will be much more tramping as a role. I can see it getting less and less people. the younger gen just don’t seem intrested in sleeping in a layby in a truck all wèek.
I can personally see it changing to digs to attract the next generation
Didn’t stobarts finish 100,s of there trampers once , days & nights was the way to go , didn’t take long for them to realise it doesn’t work
Winseer:
There’s this thing with firms paying the top dollar (Pre-Covid) where the full timers sooo resent the differential agency are getting, they’ll make whatever moves necessasry to ensure a quick turnover of agency staff…That firm - then doesn’t get a bad reputation, until and unless a number of other firms - then over-bid them for the drivers…
…Which is why (observation) firms like John Lewis, Royal Mail, and Asda - are drowned out of the jobs market by just above everyone else seriously trying to recruit overbidding them…
If you could get £20ph at a firm that leaves you alone to do the damned job, instead of watching you like hawks, or even had driver-facing cameras or full time staff watching your progress on the Isotrac/Microlise…
You’d take the Laissez-faire pound-for-pound over the Spanish Inquisition one - wouldn’t you?
Now… That time has come!
Meanwhile, in Supplier land - having now left that job, - I’d ask are they packing drivers back into those “cooler” waiting rooms again, where you once more - are not allowed to stay in your cab, and cannot take a break on the bay, even if it takes 3-4 hours to tip you… ?
Does anyone understand Winseer?
Weve got drivers who want to know how they can do 6 days a week , 50/60 yr olds doing 5/6 , b/h , extra shifts , running in as they’d prefer that than getting home on a Friday , apparently now 4 /4 is the best shift going , much better than mon - fri ( years ago you had a list of drivers desperate to get off of weekends )
It’s too late , the idiots who do these things have ■■■■■■ the job , they’ve made 5/6 as the norm , W/end work as the norm , running in as the norm
You’ll never change it back as they don’t want it changed back , they might moan about the long hours & then they do 6 days , and while there out there they might as well do 15 hrs at ££££££ ph
You’d think with the new rates they’d cut back , but my 63 yr old mate is doing more days / weekends / he’s on about going tramping as the night money has gone up
I just can’t see any changes as the bosses don’t want it , and the vast majority of drivers don’t
Nb my last job I did 3 days , mon-wed , 45 hrs , apparently some drivers moaned to the agency why I was getting away with it , round the bloody twist , I’m doing 3 days because I waned to , there doing 6 days because they want too , but somehow there being hard done by
Franglais:
Long distance do trailer swops.
That’s exactly the type of work which the government intends to remove from the roads to put on rail.
The problem for the government is that few want to do the remaining local work which it intends to foist onto the road transport industry just like the 1920’s/30’s.