Wet Nursing the new generation

[jakethesnake]

but I dont think the current issues we have on the road are due to the differences in training.

If you don’t think it’s the training, what do you think it is?

I tend to agree with you BTW however like Juddian I did my class one when the training took 10 days for the majority of drivers. In these days there was more time to spend teaching you to be a driver and not just teaching you to pass a test.

Now I won’t go into great detail as some think I live in a fantasy world and talk crap all the time but I can tell you I as involved with training during the transition period.
IE. when it changed from a straight box to a splitter (or range change) and also from flatback to box trailer. I also remember when the training time was reduced (cost related) and the main priority of an instructor was to get a trainee through a test asap rather than have the time to teach the proper driving techniques. Just to add when it was changed to the theory test it was found drivers did not learn their highway code to the same extent probably due to it all being done online.

However saying all that I don’t think it is down to just the training either. I think it’s more the quality of the training that’s the problem. The standard of instruction varies immensely and poor instruction is far too common. Any LGV instructor should have plenty LGV experience themselves and then be properly trained on how to intruct. There are to many ex lorry drivers teaching new drivers bad habits of their own. I have seen it first hand many times.

Until the whole process is better regulated and the training is more comprehensive nothing will change.

[nite_owl]

jakethesnake:
but I dont think the current issues we have on the road are due to the differences in training.

If you don’t think it’s the training, what do you think it is?

I tend to agree with you BTW however like Juddian I did my class one when the training took 10 days for the majority of drivers. In these days there was more time to spend teaching you to be a driver and not just teaching you to pass a test.

Now I won’t go into great detail as some think I live in a fantasy world and talk crap all the time but I can tell you I as involved with training during the transition period.
IE. when it changed from a straight box to a splitter (or range change) and also from flatback to box trailer. I also remember when the training time was reduced (cost related) and the main priority of an instructor was to get a trainee through a test asap rather than have the time to teach the proper driving techniques. Just to add when it was changed to the theory test it was found drivers did not learn their highway code to the same extent probably due to it all being done online.

However saying all that I don’t think it is down to just the training either. I think it’s more the quality of the training that’s the problem. The standard of instruction varies immensely and poor instruction is far too common. Any LGV instructor should have plenty LGV experience themselves and then be properly trained on how to intruct. There are to many ex lorry drivers teaching new drivers bad habits of their own. I have seen it first hand many times.

Until the whole process is better regulated and the training is more comprehensive nothing will change.

I took my dog to the pub with me the other night. The barman got a bit upset and told me he wasn’t allowed in. I explained he was a well behaved dog and besides, I’d spent a long time teaching him a few tricks. Intrigued, the barman asked to see them. “Roll over” I said to the dog, who just looked at me. “Play dead” I said, the dog just tilted his head to the side and carried on looking at me. “Give me your paw” I instructed, but the dog just stuck his tongue out and started drooling in the floor. “That was rubbish” said the barman, “I thought you’d taught him tricks”? “I did teach him tricks, I never said he’d learnt them”

[jakethesnake]

Nite Owl:

jakethesnake:
but I dont think the current issues we have on the road are due to the differences in training.

If you don’t think it’s the training, what do you think it is?

I tend to agree with you BTW however like Juddian I did my class one when the training took 10 days for the majority of drivers. In these days there was more time to spend teaching you to be a driver and not just teaching you to pass a test.

Now I won’t go into great detail as some think I live in a fantasy world and talk crap all the time but I can tell you I as involved with training during the transition period.
IE. when it changed from a straight box to a splitter (or range change) and also from flatback to box trailer. I also remember when the training time was reduced (cost related) and the main priority of an instructor was to get a trainee through a test asap rather than have the time to teach the proper driving techniques. Just to add when it was changed to the theory test it was found drivers did not learn their highway code to the same extent probably due to it all being done online.

However saying all that I don’t think it is down to just the training either. I think it’s more the quality of the training that’s the problem. The standard of instruction varies immensely and poor instruction is far too common. Any LGV instructor should have plenty LGV experience themselves and then be properly trained on how to intruct. There are to many ex lorry drivers teaching new drivers bad habits of their own. I have seen it first hand many times.

Until the whole process is better regulated and the training is more comprehensive nothing will change.

I took my dog to the pub with me the other night. The barman got a bit upset and told me he wasn’t allowed in. I explained he was a well behaved dog and besides, I’d spent a long time teaching him a few tricks. Intrigued, the barman asked to see them. “Roll over” I said to the dog, who just looked at me. “Play dead” I said, the dog just tilted his head to the side and carried on looking at me. “Give me your paw” I instructed, but the dog just stuck his tongue out and started drooling in the floor. “That was rubbish” said the barman, “I thought you’d taught him tricks”? “I did teach him tricks, I never said he’d learnt them”

You are quite correct Nite Owl, I just re read my post and it’s probably a little unfair but definitely true sometimes. There are plenty good instructors and plenty good drivers however as you say there are people who just struggle to be taught. I have encountered it many times.

It takes many things to make a good driver and some no matter how hard they try wil never make the grade. Firstly you need the correct attitude (instructor and driver) The driver needs to have a certain natural ability for driving and needs be completely aware that there is a constant learning process after passing the test. Unfortunately this rarely happens and the only things learned are bad habits and complacency.

What’s the solution?

[nite_owl]

jakethesnake:
You are quite correct Nite Owl, I just re read my post and it’s probably a little unfair but definitely true sometimes. There are plenty good instructors and plenty good drivers however as you say there are people who just struggle to be taught. I have encountered it many times.

It takes many things to make a good driver and some no matter how hard they try wil never make the grade. Firstly you need the correct attitude (instructor and driver) The driver needs to have a certain natural ability for driving and needs be completely aware that there is a constant learning process after passing the test. Unfortunately this rarely happens and the only things learned are bad habits and complacency.

What’s the solution?

Maybe the training is too good and people who shouldn’t really be driving trucks are dragged through their tests only to be let loose on the roads.

Mainly I think it’s the attitude of drivers that’s the biggest problem. Back in the “good old days”, driving was tough. No auto gearboxes, no mirrors that moved to keep the road in view as you turned and no bloody steps to get into the cab. That left us with people who wanted to be truck drivers driving trucks. Dare I say it, people who were proud to be truckers. Nowadays, these things are dead easy to drive. This has opened the profession to people who simply see it as a job, and a job that’s easy doesnt necessarily attract the same calibre of person. Low wages aren’t helping either. The sorts of people who we need to drive lorries simply arent attracted to the job because of it, this in turn reduces public opinion of us and young uns dont grow up wanting to be lorry drivers and the whole vicious circle continues.

No matter how much glitter you roll a turd in, it’s still a turd.

(Edit: ■■■■, I think I just agreed with you. Time for me to put the phone down before I do something really stupid!!)

[robroy]

Nite Owl:
people who shouldn’t really be driving trucks are dragged through their tests only to be let loose on the roads.
Nowadays, these things are dead easy to drive.
This has opened the profession to people who simply see it as a job, and a job that’s easy doesnt necessarily attract the same calibre of person.
.

Exactly this…,.the roads are awash with ‘Car drivers with Class 1s’ rather than ‘Proper drivers’
Hence the cluster ■■■■ of the ■■■■ poor quality of truck driving, tailgating, keeping you hanging in the middle lane after moving over, not letting you out, and the classic cutting in on you during an overtake.

[vid]

Got shouted down for this a few years ago, but my opinion remains that if you’re not taught to drive a car properly in the first place then you’re not likely to drive anything else properly later in life.

[jakethesnake]

Maybe the training is too good and people who shouldn’t really be driving trucks are dragged through their tests only to be let loose on the roads.

No the training is not always good. I have witnessed that. What I would say though is the actual test is too easy and luck usually plays a big part rather than skill.

[jakethesnake]

Vid:
Got shouted down for this a few years ago, but my opinion remains that if you’re not taught to drive a car properly in the first place then you’re not likely to drive anything else properly later in life.

Should not be the case because if you were not taught properly when doing your car test then any exsisting problems should be resolved when doing LGV.

[robroy]

Vid:
Got shouted down for this a few years ago, but my opinion remains that if you’re not taught to drive a car properly in the first place then you’re not likely to drive anything else properly later in life.

Hmmm not so sure.
From 17 to 20 I was the world’s if not worst, maddest car driver out.
Foot hard down all the time, screaming around bends, classic boy racer and a complete raving nutter … so much so that at 18 this bird’s Dad who I was crazy over (the girl not her Dad btw ) would not let her out with me, and he got me in a quiet corner and err…marked my card.

Took my Class 1 at 21, saw the light, and changed my ways, developing into the great (and modest ) supertrucker I am today.

[vid]

robroy:

Vid:
Got shouted down for this a few years ago, but my opinion remains that if you’re not taught to drive a car properly in the first place then you’re not likely to drive anything else properly later in life.

Hmmm not so sure.
From 17 to 20 I was the world’s if not worst, maddest car driver out.
Foot hard down all the time, screaming around bends, classic boy racer and a complete raving nutter … so much so that at 18 this bird’s Dad who I was crazy over (the girl not her Dad btw ) would not let her out with me, and he got me in a quiet corner and err…marked my card.

Took my Class 1 at 21, saw the light, and changed my ways, developing into the great (and modest ) supertrucker I am today.

So you learnt the important basics from somewhere then? Correct road positioning to take bends, handling your vehicle at 70+ on roads that are probably now 40 limits, keeping your eyes open? You gained absolutely nothing from your first 3-4 years of driving?

[robroy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Between the ages of 17 and 18 I only learned how to drive home with about 5 pints on board, and how to have ■■■ in a confined space.
In mitigation I always practiced safe ■■■ in the car…I kept the handbrake on at all times.

Seriously though, although I did not do it myself,.at that time you could go straight to Class 1 from a provisional car licence, so it kinda blows your theory bud.

[windrush]

The company I worked for at the time (Tilcon) put me through for my class 2 (we had no artics so a class 1 wasn’t needed) in 1976 when I was 25 years of age. It was two week course but shared with other students so it was only during the second week that I got intensive training while the other guy who had another week mostly watched. Three of us crammed into a 1968 Foden S34 cabbed eight wheeler tipper, one in each seat and one crouched on the engine cowling! It had the Foden 12 speed gearbox (but we only used the four main ones) and a hydraulic throttle that lost its pressure after a while so had to pump it up when in neutral to get the pressure back! What we were taught was to make progress, all the road work was done in Scarborough (in March so quiet) and we had a set route which was also the test route so we knew it backwards after two weeks. During the actual test I had an examiner that I was pre-warned liked to get a move and didn’t like time wasting. Well all went well until we came to a T junction where I knew that we would turn right and then turn left after just a few yards into an unmade road, but of course I couldn’t let him know that I knew that!
Over the brow of the hill came a car approaching from the left so I waited until it went past, the examiner glared at me and told me to get a move on. I turned right and then left and no more was said. After running through the Highway Code he informed me I had passed. He then asked why I had waited at the junction! I replied that I would have held the car up when turning left into the side road and he just replied “and, what about the three vehicles sitting behind you at the junction, you were holding them up as well. In a truck you will always hold somebody up so just get a move on and let them sort themselves out”. I didn’t agree and still don’t but that was how we were taught!

Then back at the quarry I had to learn how to avoid all the neutrals in a Foden gearbox!!

Pete.

[muckles]

Vid:
Got shouted down for this a few years ago, but my opinion remains that if you’re not taught to drive a car properly in the first place then you’re not likely to drive anything else properly later in life.

It maybe true to an extent, as in how can you do something properly if you don’t know how to do it properly, but you’d have to take in those lessons, not always easy when it comes to a ■■■■ sure 17 year old, they know it all, but the main thing is you continue to learn and improve after your test and actually it can be the boy/girl racer that improves, once they mature enough to know they don’t know it all and want to be better drivers because they have an interest in cars and don’t just see it as a mean to an end, it can be no coincidence that many of the people I know who’ve done advanced training were boy racers in their younger days.

[muckles]

Nite Owl:

jakethesnake:
You are quite correct Nite Owl, I just re read my post and it’s probably a little unfair but definitely true sometimes. There are plenty good instructors and plenty good drivers however as you say there are people who just struggle to be taught. I have encountered it many times.

It takes many things to make a good driver and some no matter how hard they try wil never make the grade. Firstly you need the correct attitude (instructor and driver) The driver needs to have a certain natural ability for driving and needs be completely aware that there is a constant learning process after passing the test. Unfortunately this rarely happens and the only things learned are bad habits and complacency.

What’s the solution?

Maybe the training is too good and people who shouldn’t really be driving trucks are dragged through their tests only to be let loose on the roads.

Mainly I think it’s the attitude of drivers that’s the biggest problem. Back in the “good old days”, driving was tough. No auto gearboxes, no mirrors that moved to keep the road in view as you turned and no bloody steps to get into the cab. That left us with people who wanted to be truck drivers driving trucks. Dare I say it, people who were proud to be truckers. Nowadays, these things are dead easy to drive. This has opened the profession to people who simply see it as a job, and a job that’s easy doesnt necessarily attract the same calibre of person. Low wages aren’t helping either. The sorts of people who we need to drive lorries simply arent attracted to the job because of it, this in turn reduces public opinion of us and young uns dont grow up wanting to be lorry drivers and the whole vicious circle continues.

No matter how much glitter you roll a turd in, it’s still a turd.

(Edit: ■■■■, I think I just agreed with you. Time for me to put the phone down before I do something really stupid!!)

I think looking for one reason for why driving standards appear to have reduced in recent years is impossible could be, more traffic, less police, people generally in more of a hurry, people possibly more selfish (no such thing as community, all about the individual) more publicity due to wider news coverage, everybody has a camera on them all the time, instantly uploading any incident for the World to see and share, years ago that bridge strike was just local news, it happened all the time in the town near me, that one truck doing something really dumb was just seen by those there at the time, now its captured on a dash cam and broadcast round the world within minutes.
And of course your point about pay and conditions of lorry drivers not attracting better entrants to the industry, also I would say many of us would have started in haulage companies where we had a chance to learn from the experienced drivers as opposed to now where the standard entrance to the industry seems to be getting on agencies and getting no support from other drivers.

[muckles]

jakethesnake:
but I dont think the current issues we have on the road are due to the differences in training.

If you don’t think it’s the training, what do you think it is?

I tend to agree with you BTW however like Juddian I did my class one when the training took 10 days for the majority of drivers. In these days there was more time to spend teaching you to be a driver and not just teaching you to pass a test.

But is this not still the case for many drivers going from a car licence to artic?

jakethesnake:
Now I won’t go into great detail as some think I live in a fantasy world and talk crap all the time but I can tell you I as involved with training during the transition period.
IE. when it changed from a straight box to a splitter (or range change) and also from flatback to box trailer. I also remember when the training time was reduced (cost related) and the main priority of an instructor was to get a trainee through a test asap rather than have the time to teach the proper driving techniques. Just to add when it was changed to the theory test it was found drivers did not learn their highway code to the same extent probably due to it all being done online.

Many of us who trained straight to artics, trained on a straight box and with a 30ft empty tandem axle flatbed trailer pulled by a little cabbed Unit with windows behind the cab, the first truck I passed after passing my test was a Volvo F12, pulling a fully freighted 45ft tri-axle tilt trailer, although luckily for me I had my brother in the passenger seat to guide me.

I didn’t know there was a minimum amount of hours for training, when my brother took his assessment drive about 30 year ago, he was told he could get his artic licence in 5 days, as it was all he ever wanted to do and had saved up for it since he started work, he took the 2 week course.

jakethesnake:
However saying all that I don’t think it is down to just the training either. I think it’s more the quality of the training that’s the problem. The standard of instruction varies immensely and poor instruction is far too common. Any LGV instructor should have plenty LGV experience themselves and then be properly trained on how to intruct. There are to many ex lorry drivers teaching new drivers bad habits of their own. I have seen it first hand many times.

Until the whole process is better regulated and the training is more comprehensive nothing will change.

But even in those days many instructors were just HGV drivers without an instructor’s qualification and in many cases (not just driving) being good at something yourself doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be good at teaching those skills to somebody else.
The truth is 2 weeks training, whether that is straight to artics or rigids then artics, will never be long enough to train somebody to a high level, but the industry would never want to pay for proper on the job training scheme and the obvious rise in wages that a more skilled workforce would expect.

[juddian]

Your last point Muckles, arguably the industry is paying through the nose anyway or rather the customer is, whether that be the client manufacturer/retailer or joe public, for the results of poor quality staff in terms of damage accidents neglect etc, not to mention the way over the top numbers of managers and admin now seemingly required to staff a transport operation, more chiefs than indians is the new norm.

[alamcculloch]

If you take things back to the time of National Service you could go straight to class one without doing cars. At that time the ordinary bloke wouldn’t be driving a car any way. Even now pass your C+E you haven’t earned a bean with a commercial vehicle so have no real knowledge of the industry. Is this why new passes have trouble finding their first job?

[jakethesnake]

alamcculloch:
If you take things back to the time of National Service you could go straight to class one without doing cars. At that time the ordinary bloke wouldn’t be driving a car any way. Even now pass your C+E you haven’t earned a bean with a commercial vehicle so have no real knowledge of the industry. Is this why new passes have trouble finding their first job?

Yes and military drivers could do the same until mid 90’s.

[jakethesnake]

muckles:

jakethesnake:
but I dont think the current issues we have on the road are due to the differences in training.

If you don’t think it’s the training, what do you think it is?

I tend to agree with you BTW however like Juddian I did my class one when the training took 10 days for the majority of drivers. In these days there was more time to spend teaching you to be a driver and not just teaching you to pass a test.

But is this not still the case for many drivers going from a car licence to artic? I don’t completely understand what you mean but I would say definitely no.

jakethesnake:
Now I won’t go into great detail as some think I live in a fantasy world and talk crap all the time but I can tell you I as involved with training during the transition period.
IE. when it changed from a straight box to a splitter (or range change) and also from flatback to box trailer. I also remember when the training time was reduced (cost related) and the main priority of an instructor was to get a trainee through a test asap rather than have the time to teach the proper driving techniques. Just to add when it was changed to the theory test it was found drivers did not learn their highway code to the same extent probably due to it all being done online.

Many of us who trained straight to artics, trained on a straight box and with a 30ft empty tandem axle flatbed trailer pulled by a little cabbed Unit with windows behind the cab, the first truck I passed after passing my test was a Volvo F12, pulling a fully freighted 45ft tri-axle tilt trailer, although luckily for me I had my brother in the passenger seat to guide me.

I didn’t know there was a minimum amount of hours for training, when my brother took his assessment drive about 30 year ago, he was told he could get his artic licence in 5 days, as it was all he ever wanted to do and had saved up for it since he started work, he took the 2 week course.

Yes, I did the same, straight non synchro box and flat trailer. There are no minimum hours. I know drivers that have completed in 3 days.

jakethesnake:
However saying all that I don’t think it is down to just the training either. I think it’s more the quality of the training that’s the problem. The standard of instruction varies immensely and poor instruction is far too common. Any LGV instructor should have plenty LGV experience themselves and then be properly trained on how to intruct. There are to many ex lorry drivers teaching new drivers bad habits of their own. I have seen it first hand many times.

Until the whole process is better regulated and the training is more comprehensive nothing will change.

But even in those days many instructors were just HGV drivers without an instructor’s qualification and in many cases (not just driving) being good at something yourself doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be good at teaching those skills to somebody else.
The truth is 2 weeks training, whether that is straight to artics or rigids then artics, will never be long enough to train somebody to a high level, but the industry would never want to pay for proper on the job training scheme and the obvious rise in wages that a more skilled workforce would expect.

Yes you are quite correct but my only answer to that is maybe everybody was more interested in what they were doing and took more pride in it.

[star_down_under]

Harry Monk:
The poster the OP referred to is a new driver asking about what he might need to go tramping.

OK, so the question has been asked before and it will no doubt be asked again, but there’s no harm in a poster starting a new thread where replies can be tailored to his individual circumstances.

I see a lot of threads in which I have no worthwhile contribution to make, my solution is to move on without making snide comments to a thread in which I can post something of help.

You Harry are a true gentleman, none of us were born or entered this industry with all the knowledge. We aquired it from those who went before us. It’s now out turn to repay the favours by passing our learning on.
Those who are too stingy to repay their debt should just keep walking by.
If you’ve got nothing positive to offer, don’t bother posting.
To BLT, sorry my experience is probably not relevant to your situation, but don’t be discouraged. All the best young fella.