Weekly rest payback

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
81

Hi tachograph

tachograph:
No Del you’re not right about that.
After six 24 hour periods you must start either a weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest, sorry but I’m a bit confused by your example but however it works there will need to be at least a 24 hour rest period after six 24 hour periods so you can’t possibly work 2 weeks with just 2 minutes rest falling within the two consecutive weeks :wink:

if you look at my example you will see i put the 24 hours in

delboytwo:
week 1 00.01 start work on sun takes 24 hours for 144 rule finishes work sun 23.59

total rest 90 hour but actual rest 2 mins in two consecutive weeks the 24 hours rest is not counted

as the 24 hours in the two week can not be used as you have already counted the 1 min as a 45 hour rest for that week the 24 hour as been put there for the 6x24 hour rule then when you finish at 23.59 that 1min count as rest for that week 45,but if you look at that all the actual rest in those two weeks was 2 mins cos you can’t count the 24 hours in either of those week as you have already count the rest for those weeks

tachograph:
You left this important bit out of your quotes :wink:

  1. A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be
    counted in either week, but not in both.

have a look at that bit then consider this
if you have to have at least a 45 and 45 or a 45 and a 24 in the two consecutive weeks

delboytwo:
In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least

two regular weekly rest periods, or

one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction
shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest
taken en bloc before the end of the third week following
the week in question.

this is telling me that in two consecutive week you must have at least 69 hours of rest or at least 90 hours rest

i will try and get across what my thinking is, sorry the way i put it but i am not the best writer

lest say you work a week and that week is and always going to be

Monday 6.00am till Saturday 9.00am when that drive does this he always get a 45 regular rest in

if you look at that you will see that in two consecutive weeks the driver will have 90 of rest in those week

but lets look at it that one week the boss asks him to do an extra 2 hours this Saturday till 11 am

those two consecutive week he as only had 88 hours of actual rest

now look at my first example

delboytwo:
week 1 00.01 start work on sun takes 24 hours for 144 rule finishes work sun 23.59

in these two week the amount of actual rest was only 24 hours and 2 mins

i know to have counted that as a full rest not disputing that but, if the regs say that IN two consecutive week does that not mean IN two weeks you must have at least 2x 45 or at least 1x 45 and 1x 24 which

cos if you think of it if you have any compensation that you owe from week 1 you have to pay that back by the end of the 3rd week following the week in question that would be 24.00 sun

so when the driver come back to work from paying the compensating rest back and the week starts at 6.00am and finishes an Saturday 9.00am then takes 45 off, starts again at 6 am Monday and the finishes on Saturday at 9.00am takes 45 of would mean that he only had 84 hours of rest, unless you can count the six hour at the start of the week other wise you will always be paying compensation back and if you look at that you would see that IN two consecutive week you have had A 84 hours actual rest or B as I see it 90 hours actual rest

i am not disputing the fact that you can use a rest in either week but you still must have 90 hours of rest in those two consecutive weeks unless you have take a reduction to a minimum of 69 hour rest

82

delboytwo:
i am not disputing the fact that you can use a rest in either week but you still must have 90 hours of rest in those two consecutive weeks unless you have take a reduction to a minimum of 69 hour rest

IN or WITHIN :question:

IN means it must be at least partially IN those fixed weeks
WITHIN means it must be fully contained inside those fixed weeks

83

delboytwo:
i will try and get across what my thinking is, sorry the way i put it but i am not the best writer

lest say you work a week and that week is and always going to be

Monday 6.00am till Saturday 9.00am when that drive does this he always get a 45 regular rest in

if you look at that you will see that in two consecutive weeks the driver will have 90 of rest in those week

You’re contradicting yourself here Del.

You seem to be arguing that all weekly rest must be taken within the fixed week, but in this example if that were the case the driver would have only had 39 hours not 45 (Saturday 09:00 to Sunday 24:00 = 39 hours) so according to your theory the driver in this case would have had only 78 hours weekly rest in the two consecutive weeks, and yet you concede that the driver has had 90 hours weekly rest :confused:

delboytwo:
i am not disputing the fact that you can use a rest in either week but you still must have 90 hours of rest in those two consecutive weeks unless you have take a reduction to a minimum of 69 hour rest

Again we go back to article 8.9

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be
counted IN either week, but not in both.

Nowhere in the regulations does it say that the whole of the weekly rest must be in the fixed week, in fact it makes it clear that it doesn’t have to be.

delboytwo:
so when the driver come back to work from paying the compensating rest back and the week starts at 6.00am and finishes an Saturday 9.00am then takes 45 off, starts again at 6 am Monday and the finishes on Saturday at 9.00am takes 45 of would mean that he only had 84 hours of rest, unless you can count the six hour at the start of the week other wise you will always be paying compensation back and if you look at that you would see that IN two consecutive week you have had A 84 hours actual rest or B as I see it 90 hours actual rest

Weekly rest has to be uninterrupted rest therefore you can’t add the 6 hours from the previous Monday onto the following Saturday/Sunday.
In your example It’s counted as Saturday 09:00 to Monday 06:00 then counted in either week but not both :wink:

84

Del until you realise IN and WITHIN mean different things and stop substituting WITHIN for IN when you read the regulations you will never understand this.

delboytwo:
i now would like you to explain something

Coffeeholic:
You’re doing it again, confusing in and within. Within a fixed week there is no defined minimum amount of hours required for weekly rest. In a fixed week you must have either a regular or reduced rest period, and a rest period can be in a fixed week by just 1 minute

if a driver was to follow that, that would mean in real terms the driver would have only 2 mins rest in 2 consecutive weeks

I didn’t mean the driver would only have 2 minutes WITHIN 2 weeks, or even WITHIN 1 week. I was pointing out for a rest period to be counted in a week it only has to be IN that week by 1 minute.

Example.

Week1
Work - Monday - Saturday. finish 18:00

Sunday - Rest

Week 2

Monday - Rest. This 60 hour rest period is for week 1, it is IN week 1, not WITHIN week 1.

Tuesday - Resume work 06:00

Although the 144 hour/6x24-hour period between rest periods would technically give the driver until 06:00 Monday before he would require a weekly rest period that would leave week 2 without a rest period IN it. Therefore he must start a weekly rest by latest 23:59 Sunday and if he does then that rest will meet the requirement for every week to have a rest period IN it, even though it was IN week 2 for just 1 minute and the remaining time in week 3. This rest period begins IN week 2 and ends in week 3 and as we know the regulations allow for a rest that straddles 2 weeks to be counted IN either but not both, and in the case it is counted IN week 2.

delboytwo:
so when the driver come back to work from paying the compensating rest back and the week starts at 6.00am and finishes an Saturday 9.00am then takes 45 off, starts again at 6 am Monday and the finishes on Saturday at 9.00am takes 45 of would mean that he only had 84 hours of rest, unless you can count the six hour at the start of the week other wise you will always be paying compensation back and if you look at that you would see that IN two consecutive week you have had A 84 hours actual rest or B as I see it 90 hours actual rest

This is exactly where you are going wrong, he has had 84 hours WITHIN the two fixed weeks but that is irrelevant as the regulations do not state anywhere that you must have a certain number of hours WITHIN two weeks, or one week, only that you must have two regular or one regular and one reduced IN any two consecutive weeks and as in the example above a rest period only has to be IN a week for 1 minute to count toward that week.

85

Coffeeholic:
This is exactly where you are going wrong, he has had 84 hours WITHIN the two fixed weeks but that is irrelevant as the regulations do not state anywhere that you must have a certain number of hours WITHINtwo weeks, or one week, only that you must have two regular or one regular and one reduced IN any two consecutive weeks and as in teh example above a rest period only has to be IN a week for 1 minute to count toward that week.

this is the bit that really confuses me, you say that

the regulations do not state anywhere that you must have a certain number of hours WITHINtwo weeks, or one week,

can i ask you this then and you probably no what i am going to say but this is to me that the reg do actually say you have to have a minimum amount of rest in one and in two weeks

you have to have at least a 45 hour rest or at least 24 hour rest in a week

a weekly rest is a regular rest of at least 45 hours or a reduced rest is at least 24

why at the end of 6x24 hours you must take a weekly rest and that rest must be either a regular weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest

and in the regs a regulur weekly rest is at least 45 hour

‘regular weekly rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 45 hours,

or a reduced weekly rest of

‘reduced weekly rest period’ means any period of
rest of less than 45 hours, which may, subject to the
conditions laid down in Article 8(6), be shortened
to a minimum of 24 consecutive hours;

OK lets come back to this bit

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both. However, a rest period of at least 69 hours in total may be counted as two back-to-back weekly rests (e.g. a 45-hour weekly rest followed by 24 hours), provided that the driver does not exceed 144 hours’ work either before or after the rest period in question.

as you say no where in the regs it says there a minimum rest requirement in two weeks well there it is again

the bit in red

so even the the back to back rest as said you must have at least 69 hours of rest

just to add the words at least means

not less than; "at least two hours studying the manual

86

delboytwo:
this is the bit that really confuses me, you say that

the regulations do not state anywhere that you must have a certain number of hours WITHIN two weeks, or one week,

can i ask you this then and you probably no what i am going to say but this is to me that the reg do actually say you have to have a minimum amount of rest in one and in two weeks

Do you see any difference in those words Del

delboytwo:
you have to have at least a 45 hour rest or at least 24 hour rest in a week

IN, not WITHIN. It’s been pointed out to you by myself, ROG and Tachograph where you are going wrong by confusing these two words but either you are not reading the replies properly or it’s just not sinking in, That’s not sinking in, as opposed to within.

delboytwo:
why at the end of 6x24 hours you must take a weekly rest and that rest must be either a regular weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest

and in the regs a regulur weekly rest is at least 45 hour

Ask yourself this Del. How, if the rest was required to all be within the week, would it be possible to do 6x24 hours and then take a regular rest period, there are not enough hours in a week. Even taking into consideration that at least 9 or maybe 11 hours of the last 24-hour period are part of the weekly rest it still doesn’t leave enough hours.

delboytwo:
OK lets come back to this bit

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both. However, a rest period of at least 69 hours in total may be counted as two back-to-back weekly rests (e.g. a 45-hour weekly rest followed by 24 hours), provided that the driver does not exceed 144 hours’ work either before or after the rest period in question.

as you say no where in the regs it says there a minimum rest requirement in two weeks well there it is again

I said no minimum rest requirement WITHIN two weeks, not IN two weeks, you’re changing the words again. There is a minimum rest requirement IN any two weeks and that is one regular and one reduced rest period however the hours which make up those two periods do not all have to be WITHIN the two week period.

delboytwo:
the bit in red

Eh? There what is again? The bit in red tells you the maximum time allowed between ending one weekly rest and commencing another, it says nothing about minimum rest requirements for a fixed week or fortnight.

delboytwo:
just to add the words at least means

not less than; "at least two hours studying the manual

That’s really funny you started to give the meaning of words yet the whole reason you are confused is because of your failure to grasp the different meaning of two words.

Understand the difference between IN and WITHIN, then stop substituting WITHIN for IN and you should see where you are going wrong.

in an earlier post I gave you an example and I’ll put it here again. Is it legal and is any compensation required?

Week 1
Start 00:00 Monday after full weekly rest, counting for week zero.
Finish 24:00 Saturday
Start 21:00 Monday after full weekly rest, counting for week 1
Finish 21:00 Sunday and take full weekly rest, counting for week 2

87

this is what in means

in1 definition

in (in)

  1. contained or enclosed by; inside; within in the room, in the envelope

English and it definitions are difficult for me but in the above quote from

yourdictionary.com/in

in is within or am i missing some thing

or the only way I can learn is by explaining to me in layman’s terms the meaning of the words

how you see them it may sound that i am a bit thick but that the only way i can learn

sorry for going on but that all i need is for someone to tell me how to interpret the meanings of certain words

88

ROG explained how in and within are used in the regulations a few posts back up this page.

Look at the regulation regarding daily rest.

Within each period of 24 hours after the end of the
previous daily rest period or weekly rest period a driver shall
have taken a new daily rest period.

And for weekly rest

In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least:
– two regular weekly rest periods, or
– one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
rest period of at least 24 hours.

See the difference? We all know and understand that our shift and our rest must all fall within (inside) 24 hours and if the intention was that all the weekly rest had to fall inside a week or two weeks the word within would be used for weekly rest in the regulations as well. Also if this was the case the option of having a rest period starting in one week and ending in the next would not be possible. They use within for daily rest and in for weekly rest and as far as the regulations go they mean different things. There are 30 odd definitions for in on that dictionary page you linked to so you have to realise the meaning within :wink: the context of the regulations.

89

OK am wrong i will leave this now

i don’t understand the regs or should i say the meaning of some words in there definition

sorry to all and sorry steve_24 for pinching your post and filling it with a load of rubbish on my part

i think the best course of action is for me to only post to what i actually know to be right and wait for someone else to answer and probably learn from them

90

Thanks for the replies guys…

But what’s the answer ? :blush:

91

steve_24v:
Thanks for the replies guys…

But what’s the answer ? :blush:

you do not need to payback the 2 houes in your original post as it is an EXTRA weekly rest that is needed only to stop you doing over the 144 hours without at least a minimum 24 hours rest.

And doing the 9am finish Saturdays for a 6am start Mondays gives you a 45 hours full weekly rest every week.
If in the future you do need to do a small amount of payback then try to attatch it to a DAILY rest

92

ROG:

steve_24v:
Thanks for the replies guys…

But what’s the answer ? :blush:

you do not need to payback the 2 houes in your original post as it is an EXTRA weekly rest that is needed only to stop you doing over the 144 hours without at least a minimum 24 hours rest.

Thanks ROG, don’t quite understand but I’ll take your word for it :smiley:

ROG:
And doing the 9am finish Saturdays for a 6am start Mondays gives you a 45 hours full weekly rest every week.
If in the future you do need to do a small amount of payback then try to attatch it to a DAILY rest

As in taking a 13 off to payback 2 ? might be able to fiddle that :laughing:

93

steve_24v:
As in taking a 13 off to payback 2 ? might be able to fiddle that

Or if you have a reduced daily rest available then take a 9 plus a 2 making 11 :bulb:

94

That’s the line drawn under this thread, another which was answered mostly in the third post with a minor correction at the bottom of page one yet somehow managed to get to 4 pages. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

95

ROG:

steve_24v:
As in taking a 13 off to payback 2 ? might be able to fiddle that

Or if you have a reduced daily rest available then take a 9 plus a 2 making 11 :bulb:

i said that in my very first post

96

Coffeeholic:

That’s the line drawn under this thread, another which was answered mostly in the third post with a minor correction at the bottom of page one yet somehow managed to get to 4 pages. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

that will be me then :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:

come on Coffeeholic and tachograph it must make your day, you can keep up with the regs cos someone on here does not know how to read them, :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :wink: :laughing: i wonder who that is cos i am sure i know him :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :wink: :laughing: :laughing: idea’s on a post card please :stuck_out_tongue: :laughing: :laughing: :wink: