Weekly rest payback

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:
Now you are making up regulations. Nowhere does it say you must have 90 hours, or any amount of hours in a fixed week or fortnight, a rest period only has to begin or end in a week to be able to count toward it.

no i am not if you read what a weekly rest is in the regs see below

– ‘regular weekly rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 45 hours,

‘reduced weekly rest period’ means any period of
rest of less than 45 hours, which may, subject to the
conditions laid down in Article 8(6), be shortened
to a minimum of 24 consecutive hours;

‘a week’ means the period of time between 00.00 on
Monday and 24.00 on Sunday;

6. In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least:
   – two regular weekly rest periods, or
   – one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
   rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction
   shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest
   taken en bloc before the end of the third week following
   the week in question.
   A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
   24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
   period.

so if you read 6 above it does say you have to at least 45 hours a week or 24 hours a week which is 69 hours rest in a two consecutive weeks

or 45 in week 1 and 45 in week 2 is 90 hours so the is a minimum number of hour over a fixed two week period

and that minimum is 69 hour from 00.00 Monday till 14days 24.00 Sunday and in that time you must have a minimum of 69 hours rest and if you took in that two weeks that amount of rest compensation would be required

it says it in the regs mate so i have not made them up

[delboytwo]

week one start at 6am fin at 9 am sat
week two start at 6 am fin at 9 am sat

total rest for the two weeks is 90 hours

6 hours from Mon 00.00 am till 6 am

45 hours rest from 9am sat till 6am mon

39 hours rest from 9am sat till 24.00 sun

total hour for the two fixed weeks is 90 hours

just like it say in the regs you have to have at least a minimum rest of 69 hour in two fixed weeks and there would be compensation required of 21 hours

but as the above took the fully rest no compensation required

[delboytwo]

have a look at this bit in the regs mate
you will see this bit

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
period.

lest say you start work at 00.00 Mon and finish at 24.00 sat you would have to have a rest of 24 hours. there a minimum rest requirement so when you come back to work on Mon at 00.00 you would have to finish by no later than 03.00 Saturday to for fill you two consecutive weeks rests of 69 hours which is the minimum amount of rest required in two consecutive weeks

(i) ‘a week’ means the period of time between 00.00 on
Monday and 24.00 on Sunday;

rest is and always was be worked on a fixed week

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:
Now you are making up regulations. Nowhere does it say you must have 90 hours, or any amount of hours in a fixed week or fortnight, a rest period only has to begin or end in a week to be able to count toward it.

no i am not if you read what a weekly rest is in the regs see below

– ‘regular weekly rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 45 hours,

‘reduced weekly rest period’ means any period of
rest of less than 45 hours, which may, subject to the
conditions laid down in Article 8(6), be shortened
to a minimum of 24 consecutive hours;

‘a week’ means the period of time between 00.00 on
Monday and 24.00 on Sunday;

6. In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least:
   – two regular weekly rest periods, or
   – one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
   rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction
   shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest
   taken en bloc before the end of the third week following
   the week in question.
   A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
   24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
   period.

so if you read 6 above it does say you have to at least 45 hours a week or 24 hours a week which is 69 hours rest in a two consecutive weeks

No Del, that tells you what the rest requirements are and there is no dispute about that. The problem is you are reading more into it than is there. Please point out to me the exact wording which states that the rest hours must be contained within the fixed week. It doesn’t say that and bearing in mind that it not possible to split weekly rest it would be impossible to have a rest period beginning in one week and ending in another if what you say was correct. We know that is possible because it says so in the bit of the regulations you chose not to quote.

Article 8 (9). A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week, but not in both.

delboytwo:
or 45 in week 1 and 45 in week 2 is 90 hours so the is a minimum number of hour over a fixed two week period

and that minimum is 69 hour from 00.00 Monday till 14days 24.00 Sunday and in that time you must have a minimum of 69 hours rest and if you took in that two weeks that amount of rest compensation would be required

it says it in the regs mate so i have not made them up

Sorry Del nowhere in the regs does it say the rest hours of between 69 and 90 hours must all fall within the two week fixed period. Read them again and please point out to me where it says that. I thought you had a grasp on these regulations but from what you are saying here you are failing to grasp some of the most basic points these days. I feel you have gone backwards in your understanding.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
week one start at 6am fin at 9 am sat
week two start at 6 am fin at 9 am sat

total rest for the two weeks is 90 hours

6 hours from Mon 00.00 am till 6 am

45 hours rest from 9am sat till 6am mon

39 hours rest from 9am sat till 24.00 sun

total hour for the two fixed weeks is 90 hours

just like it say in the regs you have to have at least a minimum rest of 69 hour in two fixed weeks and there would be compensation required of 21 hours

but as the above took the fully rest no compensation required

Yes that is legal, so what about this?

Week 1

Start 00:00 Monday after full weekly rest, counting for week zero.

Finish 24:00 Saturday

Start 21:00 Monday after full weekly rest, counting for week 1

Finish 21:00 Sunday and take full weekly rest, counting for week 2

Each week has a regular weekly rest in it, which complies fully with Article 8 of Regulation (EC) No 561/2006. No rest period is less than 45 hours so no compensation is required. The fixed two week period contains only 48 hours weekly rest, are you going to try to tell me this is illegal?

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
have a look at this bit in the regs mate
you will see this bit

A weekly rest period shall start no later than at the end of six
24-hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest
period.

lest say you start work at 00.00 Mon and finish at 24.00 sat you would have to have a rest of 24 hours. there a minimum rest requirement so when you come back to work on Mon at 00.00 you would have to finish by no later than 03.00 Saturday to for fill you two consecutive weeks rests of 69 hours which is the minimum amount of rest required in two consecutive weeks

No you wouldn’t, there is no requirement to have a minimum of 69 hours rest in two consecutive weeks, that is the bit you are making up. If you resume work at 00:00 Monday you are not required to commence your weekly rest until 24:00 Saturday, 6x24-hour periods or 144 hours from when you resumed work.

delboytwo:
(i) ‘a week’ means the period of time between 00.00 on
Monday and 24.00 on Sunday;

rest is and always was be worked on a fixed week

Only in so far as each fixed week must have a weekly rest period in it, and a weekly rest can be in a week by as little as one minute, not that there is a set amount of rest hours which must fall within that week.

===============================================================================================

Advice on where you are going wrong as previously requested.

1. Stop reading the word 'in’ and replacing it in your head with the word ‘within’ each time it appears in Article 8.

In and Within mean different things.

[rog]

delboytwo:
just like it say in the regs you have to have at least a minimum rest of 69 hour in two fixed weeks and there would be compensation required of 21 hours

In any two consecutive ‘fixed’ weeks a driver must take at least:

• two regular weekly rests; or
• one regular weekly rest and one reduced weekly rest.

Does it say that the weekly rest must fit into those two fixed weeks
Had it said - WITHIN any two consecutive ‘fixed’ weeks…

That seems to be the word (in) that has you perplexed I think

[coffeeholic]

ROG:
Does it say that the weekly rest must fit into those two fixed weeks
Had it said - WITHIN any two consecutive ‘fixed’ weeks…

That seems to be the word (in) that has you perplexed I think

Bloody hell ROG, you and I agree on something. We can both see where Del is going wrong, just 4 letters make all the difference.

[rog]

Coffeeholic:
just 4 letters make all the difference.

And they are are not the usual 4 letters that you think of when I post on here

curious - did you add that last bit about the wording at the same time I posted mine

[coffeeholic]

ROG:

Coffeeholic:
just 4 letters make all the difference.

And they are are not the usual 4 letters that you think of when I post on here

You mean [zb]?

ROG:
curious - did you add that last bit about the wording at the same time I posted mine

A couple of minutes before, probably just as you started to type your reply. Great minds think alike eh? Or is it fools seldom differ?

Del has gone awfully quiet, I am the only one who gets a feeling of dread when that happens?

[rog]

Coffeeholic:
You mean [zb]?

More… [ZBZB]

Del has gone awfully quiet, I am the only one who gets a feeling of dread when that happens

He is probably composing a very long reply which could go either way - oooh, the anticipation is killing me

Am only playin’ with you Del

[delboytwo]

i still stand by my answer and its week 7 and as long as you pay it back if you owe it that’s all that matters.

if the driver did not have an holiday and owed those two hours in week 4 it would be required to be paid back by week 7 i for one would not take or use a back to back rest before i start work, it would and does confuse the issue of rest and when compensation as to be paid back

the best way for this would be when you come back of your holiday you count that week as week 1 that then least clears up the week the reduction as to be paid back week by the end of the 3rd week following the week in question

can i ask you something please in the regs what is the minimum rest you have to have in a fixed week

and how much rest would you be required to have in two consecutive weeks

when does a two consecutive weeks start and end and how much rest in those weeks would be needed.

Next headache

so lest look something

in the OP post he was on holiday in week 3 starts work in week 4 as had a rest for week 4 before he starts work so that one rest for that week then on sat he takes 43 hours rest which he do not use for rest in week 4 cos he had a rest

does he count it as week 5 rest or
does he have a rest on sat of week 5 which is the one he uses
the rest in the middle is not used only for the 144 rule and therefore no counted in either week

is this what you lot are on about

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
i still stand by my answer and its week 7 and as long as you pay it back if you owe it that’s all that matters.

And there’s the thing, in this case he doesn’t owe it as that rest does not require compensation. So in this case the answer is neither week 7, week 8 or any other week as those 2 hours do not need to be compensated for.

delboytwo:
if the driver did not have an holiday and owed those two hours in week 4 it would be required to be paid back by week 7

Correct, before the end of week 7 but the driver did have a holiday and that can be used, if he so wishes, to avoid having to make the compensation.

delboytwo:
i for one would not take or use a back to back rest before i start work, it would and does confuse the issue of rest and when compensation as to be paid back

That’s your choice but it doesn’t really complicate things, it in fact removes the requirement for compensation which actually simplifies things. The OP asked for advice about his situation, not a general question on when compensation must be made, and that is an option open to him.

delboytwo:
the best way for this would be when you come back of your holiday you count that week as week 1 that then least clears up the week the reduction as to be paid back week by the end of the 3rd week following the week in question

If you choose not to use the back to back option it doesn’t matter what you call it, you compensate for it before the end of the third week following. If you choose to use the back to back option it doesn’t matter what you call that week, there is nothing to pay back.

delboytwo:
can i ask you something please in the regs what is the minimum rest you have to have in a fixed week

You’re doing it again, confusing in and within. Within a fixed week there is no defined minimum amount of hours required for weekly rest. In a fixed week you must have either a regular or reduced rest period, and a rest period can be in a fixed week by just 1 minute.

delboytwo:
and how much rest would you be required to have in two consecutive weeks

Two regular rest periods or one regular and one reduced. A figure in terms of hours (how much) is not defined in the regulations

delboytwo:
when does a two consecutive weeks start and end and how much rest in those weeks would be needed.

Starts 00:00 Monday and ends 14 days later at 24:00 Sunday. No amount of hours (how much) defined in the regulations. I gave you an example in a previous post where there were just 48 hours weekly rest within the two fixed week period and it could be a little less or a lot more. It will vary considerably depending when rest periods start and finish and whether regular or reduced periods are taken.

delboytwo:
Next headache

Oh goody.

delboytwo:
so lest look something

in the OP post he was on holiday in week 3 starts work in week 4 as had a rest for week 4 before he starts work so that one rest for that week then on sat he takes 43 hours rest which he do not use for rest in week 4 cos he had a rest

Correct

delboytwo:
does he count it as week 5 rest

No, he doesn’t need to

delboytwo:
or
does he have a rest on sat of week 5 which is the one he uses

He does.

delboytwo:
the rest in the middle is not used only for the 144 rule and therefore no counted in either week

Correct, it is only to prevent the driver working more than 144 hours, 6x24-hour periods, between weekly rests. It serves no other purpose, isn’t required for either week as there are other rest periods and requires no compensation because of that.

delboytwo:
is this what you lot are on about

It is.

[delboytwo]

well i got there then only took me 2000 post if i had read the post from tachograph correctly in the first place

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
well i got there then only took me 2000 post if i had read the post from tachograph correctly in the first place

Which if I recall correctly was the third post on page 1.

Strikes me reading things correctly could save you a lot of grief over the regulations.

[delboytwo]

i now would like you to explain something

Coffeeholic:
You’re doing it again, confusing in and within. Within a fixed week there is no defined minimum amount of hours required for weekly rest. In a fixed week you must have either a regular or reduced rest period, and a rest period can be in a fixed week by just 1 minute

if a driver was to follow that, that would mean in real terms the driver would have only 2 mins rest in 2 consecutive weeks

week 1 00.01 start work on sun takes 24 hours for 144 rule finishes work sun 23.59

total rest 90 hour but actual rest 2 mins in two consecutive weeks the 24 hours rest is not counted

am i right in that

also why do the say that you have to have you daily rest within 24 hours but not the weekly seams strange to me

also

we look at this bit

In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least

two regular weekly rest periods, or

one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction
shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest
taken en bloc before the end of the third week following
the week in question.

the word here is at least

so is that not saying you have to have at least a regular weekly rest and there say that a regular weekly rest is at least 45 hours

so if you took 1 min in to your week and count that as your rest for that week rest you did not have at least 45 hours rest IN that week you have only had 1 min

so you have not fore filled you rest requirements

[rog]

I don’t think you need to worry about the total weekly rest in any two consecutive weeks Del as there must be at least 48 because the max that can be worked in any fixed week is 6 X 24 hours periods (144 hours).

[delboytwo]

ROG:
I don’t think you need to worry about the total weekly rest in any two consecutive weeks Del as there must be at least 48 because the max that can be worked in any fixed week is 6 X 24 hours periods (144 hours).

Rog
in two consecutive weeks you must have a 48 hour rest and a 24 hour rest you can’t have to 24 in two consecutive weeks

[rog]

delboytwo:

ROG:
I don’t think you need to worry about the total weekly rest in any two consecutive weeks Del as there must be at least 48 because the max that can be worked in any fixed week is 6 X 24 hours periods (144 hours).

Rog
in two consecutive weeks you must have a 48 hour rest and a 24 hour rest you can’t have to 24 in two consecutive weeks

I was not referring to the regs - just pointing out the ACTUAL minimum rest that WILL be in any two consecutive fixed weeks

There – I made the mistake – I should have said WITHIN and not IN

[tachograph]

delboytwo:
if a driver was to follow that, that would mean in real terms the driver would have only 2 mins rest in 2 consecutive weeks

week 1 00.01 start work on sun takes 24 hours for 144 rule finishes work sun 23.59

total rest 90 hour but actual rest 2 mins in two consecutive weeks the 24 hours rest is not counted

am i right in that

No Del you’re not right about that.
After six 24 hour periods you must start either a weekly rest or a reduced weekly rest, sorry but I’m a bit confused by your example but however it works there will need to be at least a 24 hour rest period after six 24 hour periods so you can’t possibly work 2 weeks with just 2 minutes rest falling within the two consecutive weeks

delboytwo:
also why do the say that you have to have you daily rest within 24 hours but not the weekly seams strange to me

Because you can’t fit a 45 hour weekly rest into the 24 hour period

delboytwo:
also

we look at this bit

In any two consecutive weeks a driver shall take at least

two regular weekly rest periods, or

one regular weekly rest period and one reduced weekly
rest period of at least 24 hours. However, the reduction
shall be compensated by an equivalent period of rest
taken en bloc before the end of the third week following
the week in question.

the word here is at least

so is that not saying you have to have at least a regular weekly rest and there say that a regular weekly rest is at least 45 hours

so if you took 1 min in to your week and count that as your rest for that week rest you did not have at least 45 hours rest IN that week you have only had 1 min

so you have not fore filled you rest requirements

Del you really are an expert at selective quoting

You left this important bit out of your quotes

9. A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be
   counted in either week, but not in both.

In other words if a weekly rest or reduced weekly rest starts on Saturday or Sunday and finishes at 00:01 Monday then the whole of that weekly rest or reduced weekly rest can be counted for either week.