Waiting for a Truck - What Tacho Mode?

Dieseldoforme:

dieseldave:
This is exactly what happens when people make stuff up as they go along. :unamused:

The Regs say . . .available AND the period must be known in advance.

There’s nothing about whether a truck is available, because the Regs are regulating the driver, NOT a truck.

:bulb: Regs only become complicated once folk start adding their own stuff to them. :wink:

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So what are you saying the mode should be ā– ā– ?
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Answering this, I’m imagining a normal scenario at a normal yard.

You’ve already indicated your presence on site by clocking-on or simply by sticking your head through the traffic office window and saying ā€œhi boss, I’m here.ā€ So, the driver has booked on-duty and is waiting for a vehicle to become available.
Therefore it cannot be ā€œrestā€ because you’re on-duty.

(The definition of rest is being freely available to dispose of your own time, which you can’t be because you’re on duty.)

It cannot be ā€œdriving,ā€ because you’re not driving.

It could be POA, because you’re available, but to obey the letter of the law, the period must be known in advance.

It could be break, because you can use that time for recuperation.
ā€œBreakā€ is defined differently when compared to ā€œRest.ā€
Whether you need recuperation or whether there’s a canteen ISN’T the issue, nor is whether you’re being paid or what colour socks you’re wearing at the time. The price of fish is also irrelevant.
The simple and inescapable fact is that you’re waiting for a vehicle.

Break is available as an option because you must have done some ā€˜other work’ to have booked on duty in the first place.

Therefore, the answer to the question as asked is, either POA, or break.
If you were asked to do some yard duties whilst you wait, then it would be ā€˜other work.’

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Well thanks for the clarification.
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ROG:
Does the driver know how long the wait will be? = no = cannot be POA

The OP ha said that drivers were given an idea of how long until the truck was available, therefore POA is still an option.

rip em art and bring back log books :smiley:

m1cks:
The OP has said that drivers were given an idea of how long until
the truck was available, therefore POA is still an option.

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Let me play the Devil’s Advocate . . .

The Transport Manager managed to get hold of the incoming Driver and asked
him how long he would be.

ā€œHow long’s a piece of stringā€ came the reply ā€œthere’s been an accident and
I’m gridlocked just 5 miles from base.ā€

ā€œLet me know when you start movingā€ said the frustrated TM.
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stobarttrucker:
rip em art and bring back log books :smiley:

talk proper INGERLAND please :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing:

instead of a thousand what if’s i think they should make the working day a max of 12 hours from the second you get to work and you can do as much drive work rest as you want between start and finish but must have an hour compulsary rest somewhere in the middle.

ā€˜Other Work’ gets my vote and your manager is doing you a favour.
Course if you don’t get your wagon till 3 hours then it might be worth planning a break of 15mins after a couple of hours driving to cover the WTD.

Im probably wrong but its what I would do.

ROG:
As other have stated the answer to what mode is simple …

Was the driving working? = no = cannot be other work

Does the driver know how long the wait will be? = no = cannot be POA

That only leaves break mode which can be used

At least 1 minute other work would be expected to be recorded at the start of the shift

(a) ā€˜working time’ shall mean…

the times during which he cannot dispose freely of
his time and is required to be at his workstation,
ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks
associated with being on duty, in particular during
periods awaiting loading or unloading where their
foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is
to say either before departure or just before the
actual start of the period in question, or under the
general conditions negotiated between the social
partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of
the Member States

Source…

eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 039:EN:PDF

Dieseldoforme:
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Let me play the Devil’s Advocate . . .

The Transport Manager managed to get hold of the incoming Driver and asked
him how long he would be.

ā€œHow long’s a piece of stringā€ came the reply ā€œthere’s been an accident and
I’m gridlocked just 5 miles from base.ā€

ā€œLet me know when you start movingā€ said the frustrated TM.
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Doesn’t matter - the waiting driver knows that the truck is about 5 miles away, so the next 10 minutes will be POA anyway (because that’s how long it would take for the truck to get back to base even without traffic).

At the end of 10 minutes, the waiting driver asks himself ā€œIs the truck back yet?ā€ If the answer is ā€œnoā€ then the next 5 minutes will be POA, because he knows that’s how long it will take for the returning driver to uncouple, complete his paperwork etc and hand over the keys even if he drove in the gate right now. The waiting driver can repeat this every five minutes until the answer is ā€œyesā€, at which point he knows roughly how long it will be before he can start doing his checks etc and switch to Other Work.

Even if the returning driver cannot be contacted, the waiting driver can still use this ā€œfive minute ruleā€ for as long as it takes for the vehicle to return.

fules not full about POA,must be changed.but i do to may time when i waiting for truck.when i get truck enter start time-5 minut other job and POA.IF vosa STOP me you it is was POA. i can answer somebody said waiting 3 hours.but if waiting was less what said first it can count for POA…FULL LEGALY. in this rules we cant see who is must talk to you about waiting duration-planners,shift managers or security.all this is just verbal.but for verbal instruction no evidence.I think VOSA not against POA in the bay for one reason.because rules not full.if Vosa start check and give penalty about POA in the bay.when drivers come to DC.Tesco or any any company security will talk -you waiting time 2 hours.Legaly can press POA .but if you leaving after 40 minut -40 minut POA LEGALY .

Rules about POA must change for more simple.
my project -any POA for less 10 minut count for other job.
2.drivers can use POA if he not involled in any job or attendace,but first 5 minute and last 5 minute from long POA count for other job.because first and last 5 minute driver somethink do.can be much more simple for drivers and much more simple to VOSA.

Dipper_Dave:
ā€˜Other Work’ gets my vote and your manager is doing you a favour.

Course if you don’t get your wagon till 3 hours then it might be worth planning a break of 15mins after a couple of hours driving to cover the WTD.

Im probably wrong but its what I would do.

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Poor sod hasn’t got many votes so he’ll love you !!!

Now for his second rule: YOU MUST SHOW 20 MINUTES OF OTHER WORK
ON YOUR TACHO FOR YOUR DAILY CHECKS AND EVERY TIME YOU DO
A TRAILER SWAP. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL INCURR DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
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I might be wrong, but I read on here a few months back that during break times you must be free to dispose of your time as you see fit. This means you can go and do your weekly shop at Asda if you so wish. By telling you to sit in a canteen until your boss shouts you then surely that would be classed as work as you cannot use that time to do what you like ā– ā– ?

Definitely an interesting topic. And if I were paid by the hour or salary paid where my company sails me as close to 48 hours as poss I’d be snapping his arm off for other work.

Dieseldoforme:
Now for his second rule: YOU MUST SHOW 20 MINUTES OF OTHER WORK
ON YOUR TACHO FOR YOUR DAILY CHECKS AND EVERY TIME YOU DO
A TRAILER SWAP. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL INCURR DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
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Blimey he shouts it as well.

Nothing wrong with that, 20 minutes is a good length of time to check round a trailer and for that I would definately have it on ā€˜other work’, then once completed maybe pop it on break for a sneaky 15 minute cup of tea to relax & chill, powder my nose, quick tug etc and if I’m really sneeky program my next destination into my sh@t nav. (seriously sh@t is on the zb list).

Sounds like you have a great manager any jobs going.

Terry T:
I might be wrong, but I read on here a few months back that during break times you must be free to dispose of your time as you see fit. This means you can go and do your weekly shop at Asda if you so wish. By telling you to sit in a canteen until your boss shouts you then surely that would be classed as work as you cannot use that time to do what you like ā– ā– ?

Definitely an interesting topic. And if I were paid by the hour or salary paid where my company sails me as close to 48 hours as poss I’d be snapping his arm off for other work.

dude, that’s rest, the same symbol on the tacho, but 2 different things

Dieseldoforme:

Dipper_Dave:
ā€˜Other Work’ gets my vote and your manager is doing you a favour.

Course if you don’t get your wagon till 3 hours then it might be worth planning a break of 15mins after a couple of hours driving to cover the WTD.

Im probably wrong but its what I would do.

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Poor sod hasn’t got many votes so he’ll love you !!!

Now for his second rule: YOU MUST SHOW 20 MINUTES OF OTHER WORK
ON YOUR TACHO FOR YOUR DAILY CHECKS AND EVERY TIME YOU DO
A TRAILER SWAP. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL INCURR DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
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it sounds like it’s company policy, he’s not saying you’ll get an infringement, or vosa will be on your ā– ā– ā– , he’s saying disciplinary. if they want you to spend 20 minutes checking a trailer over, then 20 minutes my tacho would show :wink: :laughing: :laughing:

Mike-C:

(a) ā€˜working time’ shall mean…

the times during which he cannot dispose freely of
his time and is required to be at his workstation,
ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks
associated with being on duty, in particular during
periods awaiting loading or unloading where their
foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is
to say either before departure or just before the
actual start of the period in question, or under the
general conditions negotiated between the social
partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of
the Member States

Source…

eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 039:EN:PDF

That seems quite clear to me. If you don’t know when the truck will arrive and you must sit in a canteen and be ready then it should be other work surely ?

2.3 What is a period of availability?
Generally speaking a period of availability (PoA) is waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance by the mobile worker. Under the Regulations, these periods have to meet the following criteria:
a mobile worker should not be required to remain at their workstation;
(but) they must be available to answer calls to start work or resume driving on request;
the period and the foreseeable duration should be known in advance by the mobile worker, either before departure or just before the start of the period in question.
Like breaks and rest periods, a PoA can be taken at the workstation. Providing the mobile worker has a reasonable amount of freedom (e.g. they can relax and read), for a known duration, this would satisfy the requirements for a PoA. Where the mobile worker knows about a delay in advance, but it is deemed prudent that they should remain in the cab for reasons of security or safety, this should not in itself, disqualify this delay being recorded as a PoA. Typical examples might include waiting at a site that is unsafe for pedestrians or staying in a vehicle carrying high value goods or cash.
Mobile workers do not need to be formally notified about a PoA and its duration in advance. It is enough that they know about it (and the foreseeable duration), in advance either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question. A PoA would be deemed to be known in advance by a mobile worker if, for example:
someone (who does not have to be their employer) has told them, or
they have arrived too early for their allocated slot, or
they always experience a delay at one of their regular customers.
A PoA does not apply to delays where the mobile worker has to continue working. For example, where a driver is diverted due to a road closure, he/she would still be driving. Normally, delays due to congestion would also count as working time because the driver would be stopping and starting the vehicle. If a mobile worker is monitoring a discharge from the vehicle (e.g. petrol at filling station), this time will also count as working time.
There are no requirements as to the minimum and maximum length of a PoA.
Examples of a PoA:
Situations when a period of time could be recorded as a PoA (provided the ā€œknown in advanceā€ pre-condition is met)
Time when accompanying a vehicle being transported by boat or train.
Time spent waiting at frontiers.
Periods of waiting due to traffic prohibitions. Traffic prohibitions would include where the police have delayed the movement of an abnormal load for a set period of time, or where vehicles are banned from city centres during specified hours, and the driver has to park the vehicle and wait.
When driving or travelling as part of a team, time spent sitting next to the driver while the vehicle is in motion, unless the mobile worker is taking a break or performing any other work (e.g. navigation). This time (or a part of it) could also be counted as a break - but would need to be recorded as such. Other travelling staff may also count travelling time as a PoA, provided they are not performing any other work.
When a mobile worker experiences a delay at a regional distribution centre or depot, waiting for someone to load or unload their vehicle, if they know about the length of the delay at the start of the period (because someone has told them; because they have arrived too early for their slot; or because they always experience a delay at one of their regular customers).
If a mobile worker typically experiences a 1 hour delay at one of their regular customers, then this would count as a PoA. However, if they were to unexpectedly experience a 2 hour delay, then the second hour would count as working time. Unless the mobile worker was notified, before the end of the first hour, that a further hours delay was expected, in which case the second hour would also count as a PoA.
Where a mobile worker reports for work, is informed that they are not required to undertake any duties for a specified period (albeit, they need to remain on site to answer calls and be ready to take up work), but is free to wait in the canteen or rest facility.
If the vehicle breaks down and the mobile worker is told how long it will take to be rescued.
Situations when a period of time should not be recorded as a PoA
Where a driver is diverted due to a road closure, he/she would still be driving so the period could not be counted as a PoA.
Delays due to congestion (i.e. stuck in a traffic jam) would not count as a PoA because the driver would be stopping and starting the vehicle.
If a mobile worker is monitoring activity by others, (e.g. petrol at filling station, or the unloading of the lorry), this time would count as working time rather than a PoA.
Frequently moving up within a queue (e.g. waiting within a queue to load or unload) every other minute would not qualify as a PoA.
When the duration of the PoA is not known in advance, for example if a mobile worker was told to arrive at 9am and then leave at any time up to 1pm this would not be a PoA as the duration is not known.

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. … nce?page=4

A break is any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation. A break may be taken in a moving vehicle, provided no other work is undertaken.

businesslink.gov.uk/Transpor … hicles.pdf

is it still clear that it must be working time terry? :laughing: :laughing:

Terry T:
I might be wrong, but I read on here a few months back that during break times you must be free to dispose of your time as you see fit. This means you can go and do your weekly shop at Asda if you so wish. By telling you to sit in a canteen until your boss shouts you then surely that would be classed as work as you cannot use that time to do what you like ā– ā– ?

Definitely an interesting topic. And if I were paid by the hour or salary paid where my company sails me as close to 48 hours as poss I’d be snapping his arm off for other work.

follow you main any drivers must sent to prison ready.because if drivers stop at lay by for break.from one side road,from another privat land ,trees ,so so can t go to any side you must stay at truck.and follow Eu rules-we can t see-who break time need be near shopping centre or coffee machine,or anythink else.-follow rules drivers must just not work.realy full free dispose of time during break time -no possible.for me sometime better taked break in the bay.,but not at lay by at A-14.much better can rest