Question— did Tom ever run Coil Carriers ? I can recall plenty of the heavy flat stuff but can’t recall ever seeing any Coilers ! Cheers Dennis
Bewick:
Question— did Tom ever run Coil Carriers ? I can recall plenty of the heavy flat stuff but can’t recall ever seeing any Coilers ! Cheers Dennis
Yes he had 28 in total.
One Crane Fruehauf two M & G and 25 Municipal
All except the Fruehauf were converted 40 footers with tri-axle bogeys.
It probably was a silly question asking in the first place but of all the shots of Tom’s motors I’ve looked at on TNUK I can’t recall seeing a Coiler ! Then Bingo MML produces one ! Cheers Dennis.
The mention of Municipal Trailers jogged my memory so does the name James Walmsley ( a.k.a. “Pugwash”) ring any bells with Tom. Jim Walmsley was in earlier years, I understand, Sales Director at BTC who mainly built 4 in lines. I’m not just sure when Municipal started off at Bamber Bridge but Jim used to call on us in Milnthorpe but I never fancied their product though. IIRC he left Municipal and started flogging , and fitting , supplementary oil filters supposedly to extend oil changes by improving filtration which was alien to my idea of oil changes but I did try a couple on two ■■■■■■■ 220’s but took them off after a while as I had no confidence in the idea ! Cheers Dennis.
Bewick:
The mention of Municipal Trailers jogged my memory Cheers Dennis.
1972 registered Atkinson Borderer 4X2 tractor unit Reg No GTC 30K Fleet No 79 ‘Faithful’ was powered by a standard Gardner 180 engine.
Pictured above while parked up in Keighley West Yorkshire it spent its first four years of service coupled to a Crane Fruehauf powder tank after which time it was relegated to the general haulage fleet were it is seen here coupled up to a tandem axle Municipal coil carrier.
Thanks for that Dean,
Atkinson Borderer 4x2 tractor unit Reg No RTJ 640M Fleet No 4 ‘Unapproachable’ was powered by a Gardner 240 engine in line with an eight speed range change David Brown gearbox and Kirkstall D85 hub reduction axle.
Registered new by Riding’s on the 1st of December 1973 at a cost of £7,665.50p plus vat it was driven from new by Ted Bamber and spent its life running daily between Lancashire and the North East.
In June 1983, after ten years service, RTJ 640M was withdrawn broken up and scrapped but it is more than likely that, today, the reliable Gardner engine is still powering a junk somewhere in Hong Kong harbour.
moomooland:
Thanks for that Dean,Atkinson Borderer 4x2 tractor unit Reg No RTJ 640M Fleet No 4 ‘Unapproachable’ was powered by a Gardner 240 engine in line with an eight speed range change David Brown gearbox and Kirkstall D85 hub reduction axle.
Registered new by Riding’s on the 1st of December 1973 at a cost of £7,665.50p plus vat it was driven from new by Ted Bamber and spent its life running daily between Lancashire and the North East.
In June 1983, after ten years service, RTJ 640M was withdrawn broken up and scrapped but it is more than likely that, today, the reliable Gardner engine is still powering a junk somewhere in Hong Kong harbour.
It had been in a minor skirmish before this photo was taken, I think!
I always thought the Atkinson looked better with the double bumper fitted
Cheers Gary
240 Gardner:
It had been in a minor skirmish before this photo was taken, I think!
Yes Chris front n/side.
Tom says the picture was taken in 1983 and it was taken off the road not long after and was broken up.
Question---- How did Tom rate the DB 8 speed box compared to the Fuller 9509, I personally wouldn’t touch the DB 8 speed as I’d had enough of the DB 6:600 behind the ■■■■■■■ 220 although the DB 6:600 was fine behind the LXB 180 and the 150 LX never had a moments trouble. Cheers Dennis.
Our first Sed Ak 400 (P reg) had the DB eight speed box and it never gave any problems apart from an airchange issue on the rangechange. I phoned the factory and spoke to the Technical Officer asking what the problem could be; his answer was “No idea, when you find out let us know” which helped a lot! 
The truck actually came new with a DB six speed but the eight speed was soon fitted presumably under warranty, why I know not unless the six speed gave poor performance at 30 tonne behind a 6LXB? The change wasn’t as good as the rest of the fleet with Fuller boxes though, you had to be absolutely spot on with your changes whereas you could ‘feel’ the Fuller in.
Pete.
windrush:
Our first Sed Ak 400 (P reg) had the DB eight speed box and it never gave any problems apart from an airchange issue on the rangechange. I phoned the factory and spoke to the Technical Officer asking what the problem could be; his answer was “No idea, when you find out let us know” which helped a lot!Pete.
You know my opinion of it Pete, always thought it was the worst box I ever used. But forgot the syncromesh box in a Merc 7 1\2 tonner ,if that was a good example they can keep em.
Bewick:
Question---- How did Tom rate the DB 8 speed box compared to the Fuller 9509, I personally wouldn’t touch the DB 8 speed as I’d had enough of the DB 6:600 behind the ■■■■■■■ 220 although the DB 6:600 was fine behind the LXB 180 and the 150 LX never had a moments trouble. Cheers Dennis.
Here’s an in-depth reply Dennis courtesy of Tom Riding…
"Hi Dennis,
Your question is easy to answer but I think the answer demands some explanation.
The 9509 was in the long run a much better gearbox than the Brown 8 speed and subsequently the 11609 with its different gear profile was even better.
The 9509 would eventually get worn after big mileages and would need repair but we never had any trouble with the 11 series.
However in early 1973 when our first 8cyl Gardner was delivered i had the choice of the 8 speed Brown or the Fuller 9509 gearbox.
Because of my support for British industry I chose the Brown, it was simpler and lighter, but we were soon in trouble.
The spool valve was controlled from the gear stick by a single wire which soon broke and the air valve used to come loose and stop working.
We changed all this and fitted Fuller switches and this problem was over.
The selector forks were a complete reversal of normal Brown practice and these failed regularly with a part that could fall off and create disaster. The combined shaft and pinion had very small teeth on the gearbox side and this could cause drive failure. I seem to remember (this was a long time ago) that the syncromesh cone in the range change unit at the back of the gearbox could also fail.
I developed a good understanding with the man in charge of gearbox design at Browns and he assured me that they would sort out the problems and he supplied me with a spare gearbox.
When one failed we just put it in the ■■■■■■ van and took it to Huddersfield where it was repaired free of charge.
This went on for a while until because of lack of sales they decided to stop making them.
I then of course bought new tractors with the Fuller box.
We eventually replaced the Browns with Fuller boxes as they failed but used the usable parts out of the old units as spares.
In my humble opinion ,with the will and desire, the box could have been sorted from the start but this episode was typical of the British disease at the time.
The whole country was going to hell in a handcart at this time and has continued this way ever since not least in this Brexit ■■■■ up.
Regarding the 6 speed Brown box, this wasn’t bad, but did fail on the overdrive gear and bush after considerable miles.
However, it didn’t fail on the road and once removed it was normally reasonably quick and easy to repair.
I was never really a fan of overdrive gearboxes and would rather have a 3.7 :1 rear axle with a direct top gearbox but this arrangement wasn’t available until much later.
I trust I have answered your question but I do waffle on a bit because there are many factors that affect decision making and they need an explanation".
Regards Tom.
Thank you Tom for the comprehensive and informative explanation you are still “The man” ! Kindest regards Dennis.
moomooland:
Bewick:
Question---- How did Tom rate the DB 8 speed box compared to the Fuller 9509, I personally wouldn’t touch the DB 8 speed as I’d had enough of the DB 6:600 behind the ■■■■■■■ 220 although the DB 6:600 was fine behind the LXB 180 and the 150 LX never had a moments trouble. Cheers Dennis.Here’s an in-depth reply Dennis courtesy of Tom Riding…
"Hi Dennis,
Your question is easy to answer but I think the answer demands some explanation.
The 9509 was in the long run a much better gearbox than the Brown 8 speed and subsequently the 11609 with its different gear profile was even better.
The 9509 would eventually get worn after big mileages and would need repair but we never had any trouble with the 11 series.
However in early 1973 when our first 8cyl Gardner was delivered i had the choice of the 8 speed Brown or the Fuller 9509 gearbox.
Because of my support for British industry I chose the Brown, it was simpler and lighter, but we were soon in trouble.
The spool valve was controlled from the gear stick by a single wire which soon broke and the air valve used to come loose and stop working.
We changed all this and fitted Fuller switches and this problem was over.
The selector forks were a complete reversal of normal Brown practice and these failed regularly with a part that could fall off and create disaster. The combined shaft and pinion had very small teeth on the gearbox side and this could cause drive failure. I seem to remember (this was a long time ago) that the syncromesh cone in the range change unit at the back of the gearbox could also fail.
I developed a good understanding with the man in charge of gearbox design at Browns and he assured me that they would sort out the problems and he supplied me with a spare gearbox.
When one failed we just put it in the ■■■■■■ van and took it to Huddersfield where it was repaired free of charge.
This went on for a while until because of lack of sales they decided to stop making them.
I then of course bought new tractors with the Fuller box.
We eventually replaced the Browns with Fuller boxes as they failed but used the usable parts out of the old units as spares.
In my humble opinion ,with the will and desire, the box could have been sorted from the start but this episode was typical of the British disease at the time.
The whole country was going to hell in a handcart at this time and has continued this way ever since not least in this Brexit ■■■■ up.
Regarding the 6 speed Brown box, this wasn’t bad, but did fail on the overdrive gear and bush after considerable miles.
However, it didn’t fail on the road and once removed it was normally reasonably quick and easy to repair.
I was never really a fan of overdrive gearboxes and would rather have a 3.7 :1 rear axle with a direct top gearbox but this arrangement wasn’t available until much later.
I trust I have answered your question but I do waffle on a bit because there are many factors that affect decision making and they need an explanation".Regards Tom.
I wonder if Tom Riding ever considered fitting along with the 5 speed David Brown box an Eaton 2 speed axle , or was it that Eaton did not produce an axle which could take the torque loading with the higher powered engines ?.
shugg:
I wonder if Tom Riding ever considered fitting along with the 5 speed David Brown box an Eaton 2 speed axle , or was it that Eaton did not produce an axle which could take the torque loading with the higher powered engines ?.
Here’s Toms reply…
Hi Shugg,
Short answer is that I did not consider fitting an Eaton 2 speed axle behind the Gardner 150 or 180
engine.
I don’t recall if the option was available at this time however, in 1966 when we were buying the Atkinson
Mark 1 with the 150 engine an alternative to the Brown 6/500 gearbox became available.
From memory this was a David Brown 10 speed splitter gearbox TR5/500 ( I think this is the correct name).
It wasn’t without its faults but it did help the performance of the 6LX engine at the time.
I think we operated perhaps half a dozen of these but with the arrival of the 6LXB engine in early 1967 I didn’t think it was necessary any more.
We did however operate about 20 Comets and Super Comets with both the 16 and 18 series two speed axles with great success.
regards.
Tom Riding…
Leyland Comet four wheeler Reg No 6350 TF Fleet No 30.
Registered new in 1963 this 12C model was powered by a Leyland 370 engine, had an Eaton two speed axle along with a full air brake system.
May I ask Mr Riding a question
I’m a big Gardner fan I served my time as a apprentice on them also when I started working the fleet was still approximately 80% Gardner powered
All gave sterling service except the odd bad egg
We ran a a mixture of 6LXB/C 6 and 8LXCTs 6LXDTs and a handful of 6LYTs
Does Mr Riding have any recollections of any major failings with the above engines
We had 2 6 LYTs which were terrible but the other 3 were very reliable
Thanks Gary
moomooland:
Bewick:
Question---- How did Tom rate the DB 8 speed box compared to the Fuller 9509, I personally wouldn’t touch the DB 8 speed as I’d had enough of the DB 6:600 behind the ■■■■■■■ 220 although the DB 6:600 was fine behind the LXB 180 and the 150 LX never had a moments trouble. Cheers Dennis.Here’s an in-depth reply Dennis courtesy of Tom Riding…
"Hi Dennis,
Your question is easy to answer but I think the answer demands some explanation.
The 9509 was in the long run a much better gearbox than the Brown 8 speed and subsequently the 11609 with its different gear profile was even better.
The 9509 would eventually get worn after big mileages and would need repair but we never had any trouble with the 11 series.
However in early 1973 when our first 8cyl Gardner was delivered i had the choice of the 8 speed Brown or the Fuller 9509 gearbox.
Because of my support for British industry I chose the Brown, it was simpler and lighter, but we were soon in trouble.
The spool valve was controlled from the gear stick by a single wire which soon broke and the air valve used to come loose and stop working.
We changed all this and fitted Fuller switches and this problem was over.
The selector forks were a complete reversal of normal Brown practice and these failed regularly with a part that could fall off and create disaster. The combined shaft and pinion had very small teeth on the gearbox side and this could cause drive failure. I seem to remember (this was a long time ago) that the syncromesh cone in the range change unit at the back of the gearbox could also fail.
I developed a good understanding with the man in charge of gearbox design at Browns and he assured me that they would sort out the problems and he supplied me with a spare gearbox.
When one failed we just put it in the ■■■■■■ van and took it to Huddersfield where it was repaired free of charge.
This went on for a while until because of lack of sales they decided to stop making them.
I then of course bought new tractors with the Fuller box.
We eventually replaced the Browns with Fuller boxes as they failed but used the usable parts out of the old units as spares.
In my humble opinion ,with the will and desire, the box could have been sorted from the start but this episode was typical of the British disease at the time.
The whole country was going to hell in a handcart at this time and has continued this way ever since not least in this Brexit ■■■■ up.
Regarding the 6 speed Brown box, this wasn’t bad, but did fail on the overdrive gear and bush after considerable miles.
However, it didn’t fail on the road and once removed it was normally reasonably quick and easy to repair.
I was never really a fan of overdrive gearboxes and would rather have a 3.7 :1 rear axle with a direct top gearbox but this arrangement wasn’t available until much later.
I trust I have answered your question but I do waffle on a bit because there are many factors that affect decision making and they need an explanation".Regards Tom.
An extremely knowledgeable n comprehensive answer! I just thought they were a sod. Cheers Coomsey 
Bewick:
The mention of Municipal Trailers jogged my memory so does the name James Walmsley ( a.k.a. “Pugwash”) ring any bells with Tom. Jim Walmsley was in earlier years, I understand, Sales Director at BTC who mainly built 4 in lines. I’m not just sure when Municipal started off at Bamber Bridge but Jim used to call on us in Milnthorpe but I never fancied their product though. IIRC he left Municipal and started flogging , and fitting , supplementary oil filters supposedly to extend oil changes by improving filtration which was alien to my idea of oil changes but I did try a couple on two ■■■■■■■ 220’s but took them off after a while as I had no confidence in the idea ! Cheers Dennis.
Hi Dennis, sorry this reply is late but here goes.
I knew Jim Walsley well but didn’t like the BTC four in line trailers that he sold, especially the angle iron frame.
However I did buy two new 26’ Boden trailers with BTC running gear and Rubery Owen pressed steel frame.
These two were the 3rd and 4th trailers we added to the fleet in the early days of articulation.
I never liked the four in line idea but needs must when the devil drives and we bought about 20 Crane trailers with this layout soon after.
These were used on the inter factory job to carry a pay load of 16 tons between ICI Ltd Wilton works and ICI Ltd Carrickfergus Northern Ireland a movement that carried on for many years, first through Preston Dock and latterly through Stranraer.
No tandem axle trailer was light enough.
Pictured below are two occasions on which our Crane Fruehauf four in line trailers came to grief in Northern Ireland
while being pulled by Northern Ireland Road Transport Board Leyland Beaver tractor units which were on contract to ICI Ltd.
Regarding Jim Walsley’s next venture I reluctantly added one of his filtration systems to a new unit HCK 800N ( Supreme) fitted with an 8 cyl Gardner 240 engine number 193595.
A few months in service I received an urgent call from Patricroft as to the where abouts of this unit.
It was travelling home from Scotland loaded with steel plates at the time “Get it back here A S A P” was the request.
It transpired that a manufacturing tolerance had not been met on the bore of the oil pump drive gear where it should have been an interference fit on the camshaft.
This caused the oil pressure to occasionally fall. (Surprise and disbelief is ok after all we are talking about a Gardner engine.)
No harm was done and Jim’s filtration system was in no way to blame but nevertheless we immediately took it off.
Such is life.
Kind regards
Tom Riding.