Hi Carl,
I remember this Bedford TK when it was brand new, just a chassis cab and watch it and others like it, having the body work built, painted and sign written. Many a happy day as a boy spent with my dad at Green Lane and before that at Marmaduke Street!
Mark
Hi, Mark,
Thanks for adding that photo. It looks like PPT which was first body we built, except it was Plymax panels and I cannot see the moulding on the sides where the panels join, and looks more like an aluminium body by the gouges in the side.
I suppose it must have been replaced by one of the 6 Mercedes 16 ton GVW in Thorn’s new white livery and parked there for cannibalisation by the state of it. No headlights etc, and the body looks a mess, beyond economic repair.
If it was PPT it was a TK delux cab, which we paid extra for. god knows why because it wasn’t that much better than the standard cab. but one of our first with 466cu.in engine. Colin Watson drove it from new and it was originally cream & brown. By the looks when it was repainted it must have been the period when we briefly were using vinyl letters & illustrates why we returned to Peter Butler’s signwriting.
Hope you’re keeping well
Carl
Hi Carl ,your comment on the cost of purchasing “the goodwill” of an “A” licence reminded me of when I was starting as a 21 year old O/D in '68 when I paid £1500 for the first one and the same for the second, the third one I obtained the hard way, and was granted the third after attending the Public Enquiry with all the supporting evidence in the form of earnings statements and two letters of support from my, then, main customers Henry Cooke Ltd. ( Paper Mill) and Libbys .The " normal user" I acquired when the first two licences were transferred bore no resemblance to the much curtailed one I acquired at the end of the Public enquiry ! But I got what I wanted i.e. Goods as required throughout GB for Henry Cooke Ltd and Libby Mc Neil & Libby. Bingo ! The objectors got what they wanted 
NO carriage of livestock, NO Furniture or Household removals, NO Builders requisites and NO Agricultural produce or requites !!! Cheers Dennis.
Carl Williams:
Hi, Mark,Thanks for adding that photo. It looks like PPT which was first body we built, except it was Plymax panels and I cannot see the moulding on the sides where the panels join, and looks more like an aluminium body by the gouges in the side.
I suppose it must have been replaced by one of the 6 Mercedes 16 ton GVW in Thorn’s new white livery and parked there for cannibalisation by the state of it. No headlights etc, and the body looks a mess, beyond economic repair.
If it was PPT it was a TK delux cab, which we paid extra for. god knows why because it wasn’t that much better than the standard cab. but one of our first with 466cu.in engine. Colin Watson drove it from new and it was originally cream & brown. By the looks when it was repainted it must have been the period when we briefly were using vinyl letters & illustrates why we returned to Peter Butler’s signwriting.
Hope you’re keeping well
Carl
Hi Carl,
You were right, it is PPT, here is another view.
We are all well, hope you are too.
Mark
Bewick:
Hi Carl ,your comment on the cost of purchasing “the goodwill” of an “A” licence reminded me of when I was starting as a 21 year old O/D in '68 when I paid £1500 for the first one and the same for the second, the third one I obtained the hard way, and was granted the third after attending the Public Enquiry with all the supporting evidence in the form of earnings statements and two letters of support from my, then, main customers Henry Cooke Ltd. ( Paper Mill) and Libbys .The " normal user" I acquired when the first two licences were transferred bore no resemblance to the much curtailed one I acquired at the end of the Public enquiry ! But I got what I wanted i.e. Goods as required throughout GB for Henry Cooke Ltd and Libby Mc Neil & Libby. Bingo ! The objectors got what they wanted
Hi, Dennis,
I bet you were gutted that they did not let you carry livestock, especially on a flat trailer. I often hear you giving advise on roping & sheeting nut even you would have had difficulty roping & sheeting a load of live sheep!
LR Man:
Carl Williams:
Hi, Mark,Thanks for adding that photo. It looks like PPT which was first body we built, except it was Plymax panels and I cannot see the moulding on the sides where the panels join, and looks more like an aluminium body by the gouges in the side.
I suppose it must have been replaced by one of the 6 Mercedes 16 ton GVW in Thorn’s new white livery and parked there for cannibalisation by the state of it. No headlights etc, and the body looks a mess, beyond economic repair.
If it was PPT it was a TK delux cab, which we paid extra for. god knows why because it wasn’t that much better than the standard cab. but one of our first with 466cu.in engine. Colin Watson drove it from new and it was originally cream & brown. By the looks when it was repainted it must have been the period when we briefly were using vinyl letters & illustrates why we returned to Peter Butler’s signwriting.
Hope you’re keeping well
Carl
Hi Carl,
You were right, it is PPT, here is another view.
We are all well, hope you are too.
Mark
Hi, Mark,
Thanks for that photo. PPT must have been about 12 years old then & done in excess of 600,000 miles so had it not been cannibalised it had stood the test of time quite well
Hope you find more photos
Carl
Paul took this one on the London to Brighton run.
DEANB:
Paul took this one on the London to Brighton run.0
Thanks Dean for putting it on & thanks Paul for taking the photo
Our 1938 Bedford taken about 35 years ago on the London-Brighton run And looking closely I can see me driving (My glasses give me away). If I wasn’t so young now, it would make me feel old
The Syd Abram advert brought back many memories & can trace its DNA way back to 1952.
In 1952 my dad saw an advert in Commercial Motor for a new Bedford SB(Petrol Passenger chassis) for sale. It was Blakes the Bedford dealership who had it. Although the cab design & bodywork left a lot to be desired he bought it as it was so large (The max overall length of Buses & Cvs had just been increased to 27ft 6in) and offered a lot bigger van that our Bedford OBs which were our biggest vans at the time
When NUP was put on the road it was probably the biggest van in County Durham & gave us an advantage on large removals where others needed 2 vans (three for Pickfords). CDJ & HTH soon followed with CDJ having a body by Mardens Of Warrington which was the start of a business relationship with them where we operated well over 100 van bodies built by them In fact 40% of all vehicles 1919-1986 had Marsden bodies. Marsdens built vans for us on Bedford, seddon, Dodge, Commer, Morris, BMC, Leyland & Ford.
In about 1959 Hills who were then Bedford Main Agents in Manchester had a weekly advert were they offered Bedford SB Marsden Pantechnicons with Quick delivery. Although we never bought off Hills & buying Chassis from Adams & Gibbon our local Bedford agents and dealing directly with Marsden to build bodies, they sold quite a few.
Then Hills stopped advertising but Abrahams had a weekly advert in Commercial Motor but with Bedford SBs with bodies by Bowyer Bros Congleton who eventually changed their name to Boalloy & made fame with the Tautliner curtainsiders.
As a teenager visiting Marsdens which still was run by Old Mr Marsden his son Ken who was with his younger brother Geoff working under their father told my dad of their dealings with Syd Abram. Marsdens had been approached by Abram to supply 100 vans per year 2 a week but at a cut price. At the time Marsdens on full capacity could only build 3 vans a week & so they would not have been able to supply all their smaller customers but also to achieve Abrams price they would have needed to cut quality. They turned down the order
Abrams went to Bowyer Bros and for some time advertised Bedford SBs with Bowyer bodies.
When plating & testing came along even with modifications we could only get the SBs to 9.5 ton GVW & with diesel tanks full etc they weighed over 4.5 ton unladen So the answer was Bedford KF chassis scuttles at 11.15GVW. Because of Marsdens slow delivery VPT828F our last SB arrived when we found out their days were numbered & our next Bedford built by Marsdens BUP312F was on the Bedford KF chassis. BUP cost us £2,800
About the same time Abrams switched to using the KF chassis scuttles and the advert shown shows one of their first. In G Reg we had 6 vans from Marsdens and we got two G reg Abram Bedfords with Bowyer Bros bodies., because slow delivery from Marsden (Chassis could stand in Longshaw Street warrington for 3 to 4 months before they even started building)
The first van in the line up in the photo was our BUP312F then aged 17 years old and still running on average at 1000 miles per week with the body in very good condition. Marsdens had offered full Fibreglass bodies since 1965 where as Bowyer Bros had managed to build front cab & roof in fibreglass but not for side panels. Our two G reg Abram Bedfords only lasted about 8 years with us before we sold them. Both had major cracks in the cabs (Through vibration) & in one case a windscreen had become detached & almost fallen out & water was coming into the bodies through where the roofs joined the body sides. Much of that was explained in the price. Presumably £1620 was for 7.5 ton Bedfords & I’m not sure what the KFs cost but even after Abrams had added on their profit margins they were considerably cheaper than we were buying from Marsden, but as the 1986 photo shows every penny we spent with Marsden was worth the money.
That’s not saying Bowyer Bros could build better quality. In 1971 Seddon introduced their Pennine Pantechnoicon at 13 ton GVW built confusingly on their Pennine Passenger Chassis by their own Company Pennine coachworks and made these available at all Seddon Agents. As Seddon found they needed the space occupied in this production for chassis building Bowyer Bros bought the glass fibre moulds and produced the Seddon Pennine Pantechnicon under licence for Seddon. They also adopted the front to Bedford & Ford We had about 5 but none had the lifespan of our Bedford Marsdens.
I wonder if anyone from the Manchester area know of the links from Bedford agents Blakes to Hills to Syd Abram were there buyouts or were the three working in competition or was it just a clever salesman that passed from one dealership to another taking his idea of off the peg Bedford Pantechnicons & customer base with him
Carl Williams:
The Syd Abram advert brought back many memories & can trace its DNA way back to 1952.In 1952 my dad saw an advert in Commercial Motor for a new Bedford SB(Petrol Passenger chassis) for sale. It was Blakes the Bedford dealership who had it. Although the cab design & bodywork left a lot to be desired he bought it as it was so large (The max overall length of Buses & Cvs had just been increased to 27ft 6in) and offered a lot bigger van that our Bedford OBs which were our biggest vans at the time
When NUP was put on the road it was probably the biggest van in County Durham & gave us an advantage on large removals where others needed 2 vans (three for Pickfords). CDJ & HTH soon followed with CDJ having a body by Mardens Of Warrington which was the start of a business relationship with them where we operated well over 100 van bodies built by them In fact 40% of all vehicles 1919-1986 had Marsden bodies. Marsdens built vans for us on Bedford, seddon, Dodge, Commer, Morris, BMC, Leyland & Ford.
In about 1959 Hills who were then Bedford Main Agents in Manchester had a weekly advert were they offered Bedford SB Marsden Pantechnicons with Quick delivery. Although we never bought off Hills & buying Chassis from Adams & Gibbon our local Bedford agents and dealing directly with Marsden to build bodies, they sold quite a few.
Then Hills stopped advertising but Abrahams had a weekly advert in Commercial Motor but with Bedford SBs with bodies by Bowyer Bros Congleton who eventually changed their name to Boalloy & made fame with the Tautliner curtainsiders.
As a teenager visiting Marsdens which still was run by Old Mr Marsden his son Ken who was with his younger brother Geoff working under their father told my dad of their dealings with Syd Abram. Marsdens had been approached by Abram to supply 100 vans per year 2 a week but at a cut price. At the time Marsdens on full capacity could only build 3 vans a week & so they would not have been able to supply all their smaller customers but also to achieve Abrams price they would have needed to cut quality. They turned down the order
Abrams went to Bowyer Bros and for some time advertised Bedford SBs with Bowyer bodies.
When plating & testing came along even with modifications we could only get the SBs to 9.5 ton GVW & with diesel tanks full etc they weighed over 4.5 ton unladen So the answer was Bedford KF chassis scuttles at 11.15GVW. Because of Marsdens slow delivery VPT828F our last SB arrived when we found out their days were numbered & our next Bedford built by Marsdens BUP312F was on the Bedford KF chassis. BUP cost us £2,800
About the same time Abrams switched to using the KF chassis scuttles and the advert shown shows one of their first. In G Reg we had 6 vans from Marsdens and we got two G reg Abram Bedfords with Bowyer Bros bodies., because slow delivery from Marsden (Chassis could stand in Longshaw Street warrington for 3 to 4 months before they even started building)
The first van in the line up in the photo was our BUP312F then aged 17 years old and still running on average at 1000 miles per week with the body in very good condition. Marsdens had offered full Fibreglass bodies since 1965 where as Bowyer Bros had managed to build front cab & roof in fibreglass but not for side panels. Our two G reg Abram Bedfords only lasted about 8 years with us before we sold them. Both had major cracks in the cabs (Through vibration) & in one case a windscreen had become detached & almost fallen out & water was coming into the bodies through where the roofs joined the body sides. Much of that was explained in the price. Presumably £1620 was for 7.5 ton Bedfords & I’m not sure what the KFs cost but even after Abrams had added on their profit margins they were considerably cheaper than we were buying from Marsden, but as the 1986 photo shows every penny we spent with Marsden was worth the money.
That’s not saying Bowyer Bros could build better quality. In 1971 Seddon introduced their Pennine Pantechnoicon at 13 ton GVW built confusingly on their Pennine Passenger Chassis by their own Company Pennine coachworks and made these available at all Seddon Agents. As Seddon found they needed the space occupied in this production for chassis building Bowyer Bros bought the glass fibre moulds and produced the Seddon Pennine Pantechnicon under licence for Seddon. They also adopted the front to Bedford & Ford We had about 5 but none had the lifespan of our Bedford Marsdens.
I wonder if anyone from the Manchester area know of the links from Bedford agents Blakes to Hills to Syd Abram were there buyouts or were the three working in competition or was it just a clever salesman that passed from one dealership to another taking his idea of off the peg Bedford Pantechnicons & customer base with him
My dad always considered the SBs to be like the London Routemasters and would have run & run for ever, and yet when you consider BUP312Fon that photo was 17 years old & still doing the work it did when it was new and all the other Bedford Marsden & Vanplan TK integerals were there with it, they lasted even longer than the SBs.
I have read a lot of complaints of the difficulty in removing Bedford TK engines with calls of removing cabs axles etc. I don’t pretend to have much mechanical knowledge or ability myself but did employ some of the best mechanics in the business.
Obviously in the case of our TK integral pantechnicons removing the cab was not an option, but even with a box-van like the one in the photo (With a young Terry Fullard one of our ex drivers posing with his daughter) our mechanics used the same process.
First of all I should explain that from experience the American throw away principles which were engraved in Bedford’s DNA did not lend itself to engine reconditioning, rebuilds etc so we only used replacement Genuine Bedford short motors. In their day they were relatively cheap and we found ourselves with a new engine, that usually achieved the same engine mileage as the original.
The work was carried out not over a pit but in a solid floor work bay. We paid our mechanics on ‘Bedford recommended time’ so they clocked off at the start and were paid set hours no matter how long it took, and they took Bedford engine changes on a rota basis as it was a good earner.
The first job was to remove the head, then the sump and what was left was basically the short motor which was lowered with the aid of an engine lift onto the floor. Edging from side to side this was then pulled out to the side of the cab. The new short motor was pulled back & lifted with an engine lift (through the side TK bonnet cover).
Unless there had been any overheating in nearly every case after checking over there was very rarely any wear on the cylinder head, and obviously with new gaskets it was put back onto the new short motor and although I have greatly simplified the process the work was complete
TK engines were a doddle to remove compared to many BMC models that required cab removal, however integral vans were obviously different as the engine had to come out from below. On ‘standard’ TK models the cab was off easily within an hour (even with a Luton body provided there was a three inch clearance) and everything was laid out in front of you. You could run the engine with the cab off as well.
Pete.
Tale of two vans
On the left Albion Victor (Passenger Chassis) Chassis supplied and body built by Arlington in light Alloy. Engine Albion Diesel
On Right Bedford SB Passenger chassis. Chassis supplied by Adams & Gibbon Ltd Main Bedford Agents Durham City Body built & supplied by Marsden Coachbuilders Ltd body, cab & roof in glass fibre. Engine Bedford 330 cu in diesel 5 speed David Brown Gearbox Single speed axle
Albion new 1965 Bedford 1966 about 8 months apart. Neither involved in any accidents lasting natural lifespan.
Both pantechnicon bodies 1800 cu ft
Cost New: Bedford aprox 2/3 of Albion.
Road fund Licence: As Bedford was lighter Unladen weight aprox £50 per year cheaper
Fuel Consumption: Bedford 12 mpg Albion 10 mph
Reliability: Bedford excellent Albion Fair
Maintenance costs Bedford aprox 2/3 of Albion.
Lifespan before joining Scrapyard in the sky. Albion 7 years Bedford 12 years with us then sold for further unknown use to other removal Contractor
Mileage achieved in working life: Albion aprox 250,000 miles Bedford 650,000 plus plus.
There was a lot of snobbery about Bedford’s being the poor cousins of more Premium trucks but many of us made a lot of money out of the reliabilty & quality of Bedfords
Bedfords did good work for many operators without a doubt Carl. Many complained about poor brakes across the range but they always got though the annual test OK so couldn’t have been too bad? Gearbox overhauls on Bedfords own 4 speed box was something we did regularly at the dealership, 3rd gear synchromesh seemed a weak point, but the Turner 5 speed was quite reliable. The rear crankshaft oil seal on the 330 engine, just an old fashioned ‘rope’ in a groove, was another regular task as they worked lose and spun in the crankcase allowing oil to leak onto the clutch. An engine out task to do them properly, and we also had a few that chucked con rods through the block (sometimes knocking the compressor off in the process) which was exciting but then many other makes of diesel engines did that including Gardners! I preferred the 330 engine to the 381 and 466 engines, they never seemed to run as smoothly.
Pete.
The Commercial Motor Show was held at Earls Court London every other year and always opened by Royalty. The last by Princess Anne
From about the age of five I went to everyone
Over the years we had 2 vehicles Exhibited.
1948 Spurlings of Edgware Road London stand Bedford Livestock carrier seen on the photo as my father was bringing it from London home to Spennymoor. We had a photo sadly lost of it after it had arrived & been sign-written & then lo & behold this one turned up on Ebay. Dad said pulling out of London near Swiss Cottage he was pulled in by a police man who said he just stopped him to admire the van. This photo must have been taken somewhere where he stopped to eat, sadly my dad had died about three years before I got the photo as he would have been so surprised & would have known where it was taken. The rocker cover on the Bedford engine had all been chromed plated by Bedford for the show and so had the dip stick. Dad said when he stopped he tried to dip the oil & found the dip stick was also chrome so he had to stop another Bedford driver to borrow his dip stick.
1980 Marsden (Coachbuilders) Ltd Warrington stand (I think was the final London show) Bedford-Marsden pantechnicon on the Marsden stand. Once again about a year before the show we were invited to order a vehicle that would be exhibited in the show and once again the Bedford KG chassis scuttle was a special show order from Bedford. On this occasion we could subsequently find nothing special from Bedford. Presumably their effort must have been into seeing it was to their most recent specification and checked over to ensure no faults had been overlooked. I went to Earls Court & saw the vehicle but foolishly never took a photo
windrush:
Bedfords did good work for many operators without a doubt Carl. Many complained about poor brakes across the range but they always got though the annual test OK so couldn’t have been too bad? Gearbox overhauls on Bedfords own 4 speed box was something we did regularly at the dealership, 3rd gear synchromesh seemed a weak point, but the Turner 5 speed was quite reliable. The rear crankshaft oil seal on the 330 engine, just an old fashioned ‘rope’ in a groove, was another regular task as they worked lose and spun in the crankcase allowing oil to leak onto the clutch. An engine out task to do them properly, and we also had a few that chucked con rods through the block (sometimes knocking the compressor off in the process) which was exciting but then many other makes of diesel engines did that including Gardners! I preferred the 330 engine to the 381 and 466 engines, they never seemed to run as smoothly.Pete.
Hi Pete…interesting reading your post…my old man ran four bedfords… two 7.5ton with 4 speed 330 engines and two 12 ton with 5 speed turners 500 engines…the problem leaking at the crankshaft only happened with both the 12 ton 500 engines…we always put it down to the propshaft lenth !
Or would this not have been the case ?
We had two restored Bedfords 1937 2 tonner & 1938 30 cwt. Neither had originated from our fleet, however We had several Pre war Bedford 2 tonners similar to the one we restored and a 1938 Bedford 30 cwt very similar & they were both painted authentically as our originals, so were as near to the truth as possible. Over the time we ran these two they attracted lots of photos probably because so many people attending Vintage rallies had camera at hand.
Strangely when I gathered my thoughts together & started writing on the Trucknet thread I myself had few photos. I suppose being surrounded by all our vans every day I never thought of photographing myself. But as the years progress more and more photos come to light, mostly on the internet.
I can illustrate this with the photos below, all from different sources that record one particular day with the 30cwt 1938 Bedford on the London-Brighton run. First arriving at Battersea getting ready to unload off lowloader pulled by one of our ERFs 2nd En route to Brighton. 3rd Arriving at Brighton 4th Lined up on dislay
Have you seen this before Carl ■■
Even after all these years there are so many things that I miss about running our haulage business.
Stupid as it seems I think the stress is probably the most. I here many people saying that they have stress at work, & I suppose they really think they have, but only those of us in Haulage can imagine the stress we suffered. From worries of getting payment from customers, always with the thought that they may go bankrupt & you’ll end up loosing in some cases 10’s of thousands to problems with drivers and vehicles and when like us on anyone day you have 100 out there on the road, things do go wrong from time to time.
Although I was involved in our business all of my life, I worked there 20 years, and during that time I only took about 10 weeks holiday, which in my mind were weeks wasted as I really enjoyed my life. I did take the odd couple of days away each year usually at London & I tended to travel by train unless I needed my car to visit customers outside the West End.
Whenever I went away it seemed something always went wrong that I had to sort out when I came back and it was on one of my London trips I will recall today. David Dalrymple was our Removal estimator at the time and as he lived in Darlington and had a company car had drawn the short straw to meet me at Bank Top Station Darlington.
Getting into the car he said would I mind if he quickly nipped round home for a minute or two and his wife would make me a cup of tea. At the time I thought nothing about it but I suppose it was the equivelant of a Police Officer coming to your door and asking can we sit down, before giving bad news.
He told me Bob Pinkney (I apologise if I’ve got the first name wrong as we had a Bob & a George (Not related) had had an accident earlier that day and was dead. Its wrong to think you get hardened but experience makes you think of practical issues instead of becoming overcome with grief and all wanted to know was the circumstances what had happened.
At that time we hadn’t found out entirely of the facts, however we did have some information as one of our female drivers, Christine Oliver had been following and although very shook up she had told my father what we knew.
George had been driving one of our Bedford Marsdens Passenger chassis which by then were longish in the teeth, FUP145C which was virtually identical to the one below in the picture, and Christine was following in one of our Leyland Super Comet tractor units with a forty foot trailer, which at the time was about one year old.
George was approaching a road junction and went straight across just missing a line of people standing at a bus stop and ploughing into a stone church wall which the Bedford demolished. George was found dead in his driving seat.
Although our maintenance standards were very high, at that stage you cannot help wondering had the brakes failed.
Whenever I’ve heard of a coach crashing & passengers and or the driver being killed, particularly if its in our area of the North East, how I feel for the coach owner, because there is often a few days before you hear of the results of the tests that establish the cause of the accident , and so it was over the next two or three days with my dad & myself at Spennymoor.
The results eventually come that George had suffered a heart attack and had managed to steer the van enough to avoid in killing anyone standing at the bus stop but was most probably dead at the time of impact with the wall.
FUP145C was a right-off and our usual course of action would have been to arrange to buy the salvage off the insurer and repair and put it back on the road, but in this instance we didn’t and the van never returned to Spennymoor
DEANB:
Have you seen this before Carl ■■0
No thanks Dean,
Presumably it was an article in Motor Transport Magazine?
Thank you very much.
