Carryfast:
No if you’d read what I wrote you’d have seen that I actually know all of that however the bit that’s relevant to us is our part of the chain.Assuming that we’re a subby or a haulage contractor the VAT,and the duty paid on the diesel used to get the freight to where it’s going,has to be passed on to the next link in the chain.But those next links in the chain are’nt in business to pass on those taxation costs to the end VAT paying customer if they can find a more competive way of getting the job done because the end customer is only interested in what the goods are going to cost inclusive of VAT,which included the VAT paid on the fuel,if the goods are shipped by road,and that pricing pressure gets passed back down the chain in just the same way that the tax gets sent up it.In which case it takes someone with a lot more intelligence than the average Eton educated politician to understand that if you can get the goods transported for cheaper costs (inclusive of all taxes) that’s what you’ll do.But Joe Public obviously is’nt as stupid as our leaders because you won’t find many elections where the total vote,for all of the parties combined,exceeded the amount of voters who did’nt bother to vote for any of the idiots and stayed at home.But if you’re right then it would’nt matter to the North American road transport industry if they subjected it to the same type of fuel taxation regime as the British one is having to deal with.
geezzus what a jumble to sort through. Its like seeing a raw stream of conciousness. Can’t you put your POV over in smaller chunks? Makes life easier. TIA
If you are VAT registered you get the extra VAT back when you send off your VAT return. It couldn’t be any easier!
Anyway, if we are talking about goods being delivered in the UK to end consumers then they, the end consumer, end up paying the final bill including the VAT. Everyone else has been able to offset the VAT they paid against what they charged. Everyone but Mr End User pays HMRC the added bit of tax after deducting the input bit, each stage increasing the final delivery price inclusive of VAT. I can’t see many of the goods being moved now by truck transfering to other modes. The only effect I foresee is a bit of ■■■■■■■■ when the extra 2.5% goes on all consumer goods, maybe a temporary drop in sales for a while but not for long as people still want their stuff delivered. ■■■■■■■■ about foreign transport companies is looking for a scapegoat.
You seem to have a hangup about Eton. Is there a reason beyond prejudice or class warfare?
As for North America, they don’t have VAT but they do have sales taxes. Gas is cheap but they still ■■■■■ about the price there too.
Carryfast:
But would you still say that if you won the lottery and at what point do all of those so called intelligent bankers and politicians decide that all of the country’s economy is,at present,based on nothing but worthless paper just like Germany’s before Hitler came to power and then lost the war which got their wealth creating industrial powerhouse back on it’s feet at our expense.But in the modern world it’s having natural rescources like gas and oil to power our industries which should be king.But what did our government do ?.Like our industries they flogged it all off for more worthless zb paper.
If i won the lottery it would be a flaming miracle as I don’t buy tickets. The lottery is a tax on the innumerate. If I did win the lottery though, you could still send me any useless money. You know you want to…
What makes you think our economy isn’t based on worthless paper? How much gold and silver do you think is sitting in the Bank of England? I can tell you. Very Little! Our worthless paper is simply a promise to pay non-existant sterling silver in exchange for this shiity scrap of paper. You already know the promise won’t be kept therefore paper money and coins are just tokens in a barter system. The money only has value for as long as everyone agrees there is a value. When they decide the value is just an empty promise, all bets are off.
The UK doesn’t seem to make much stuff anymore. We import cheap tatty crap from China and India et al instead. We have very few natural resources so we have become a service economy.
Trouble is you can only make money from services by doing it better or cheaper than everyone else so a service based economy is always vulnerable to competition. When times are hard services get curtailed. Raw materials will still be in the ground after the hard times have passed. Services that didn’t happen can’t be recovered.
All money is an illusion — it is just numbers in an account somewhere. What else could it be?
If you have £100 in the bank (that is your statement has +1000 on it) and you pay me £500, then my account goes up and yours goes down. Nothing else happens; no one takes anything from your bank to mine. You can invest your money — that is you give it to someone else for them to use and they pay you for the benefit. In theory the risk will determine how much they will pay, and overall the good balances the bad; but that is what has gone wrong. Banks were lending large amounts to high risk people at low rates. In Ireland the rate was set by someone else (The EU) so they had no control and now they can’t afford the repayments.
The world runs on this illusion called money and there is no viable alternative (think cowrie shells or gold). If you want to buy a car or a litre of petrol then you need some way of paying for it. You could barter — maybe a chicken would be worth a couple of litres but it would make the accounts a bit difficult.
When we go to work we sell our labour for money; then we use that money to buy stuff. If you are in business then you sell your goods or services for money.
Carryfast:
No if you’d read what I wrote you’d have seen that I actually know all of that however the bit that’s relevant to us is our part of the chain.Assuming that we’re a subby or a haulage contractor the VAT,and the duty paid on the diesel used to get the freight to where it’s going,has to be passed on to the next link in the chain.But those next links in the chain are’nt in business to pass on those taxation costs to the end VAT paying customer if they can find a more competive way of getting the job done because the end customer is only interested in what the goods are going to cost inclusive of VAT,which included the VAT paid on the fuel,if the goods are shipped by road,and that pricing pressure gets passed back down the chain in just the same way that the tax gets sent up it.In which case it takes someone with a lot more intelligence than the average Eton educated politician to understand that if you can get the goods transported for cheaper costs (inclusive of all taxes) that’s what you’ll do.But Joe Public obviously is’nt as stupid as our leaders because you won’t find many elections where the total vote,for all of the parties combined,exceeded the amount of voters who did’nt bother to vote for any of the idiots and stayed at home.But if you’re right then it would’nt matter to the North American road transport industry if they subjected it to the same type of fuel taxation regime as the British one is having to deal with.
geezzus what a jumble to sort through. Its like seeing a raw stream of conciousness. Can’t you put your POV over in smaller chunks? Makes life easier. TIA
If you are VAT registered you get the extra VAT back when you send off your VAT return. It couldn’t be any easier!
Anyway, if we are talking about goods being delivered in the UK to end consumers then they, the end consumer, end up paying the final bill including the VAT. Everyone else has been able to offset the VAT they paid against what they charged. Everyone but Mr End User pays HMRC the added bit of tax after deducting the input bit, each stage increasing the final delivery price inclusive of VAT. I can’t see many of the goods being moved now by truck transfering to other modes. The only effect I foresee is a bit of ■■■■■■■■ when the extra 2.5% goes on all consumer goods, maybe a temporary drop in sales for a while but not for long as people still want their stuff delivered. ■■■■■■■■ about foreign transport companies is looking for a scapegoat.
You seem to have a hangup about Eton. Is there a reason beyond prejudice or class warfare?
As for North America, they don’t have VAT but they do have sales taxes. Gas is cheap but they still ■■■■■ about the price there too.
In the real world what often happens with fuel tax increases is that it’s the haulage contractor who has to absorb the extra costs by having to cut the rate for the job because the market won’t stand a price increase in the final delivery price.The simple fact is that more road fuel taxation means more road haulage operations going out of business.As for Eton it’s not prejudice it’s just that many of our politicians seem to need that education as part of their CV to get the job.The results for the British economy speak for themselves .But that did’nt answer my question as to what would happen to North the American road transport industry if it was subjected to a diesel price the same as here and then tried to pass those costs on to the final user assuming that other modes of transport like rail and air remain the same .
Carryfast:
But would you still say that if you won the lottery and at what point do all of those so called intelligent bankers and politicians decide that all of the country’s economy is,at present,based on nothing but worthless paper just like Germany’s before Hitler came to power and then lost the war which got their wealth creating industrial powerhouse back on it’s feet at our expense.But in the modern world it’s having natural rescources like gas and oil to power our industries which should be king.But what did our government do ?.Like our industries they flogged it all off for more worthless zb paper.
What makes you think our economy isn’t based on worthless paper? How much gold and silver do you think is sitting in the Bank of England? I can tell you. Very Little! Our worthless paper is simply a promise to pay non-existant sterling silver in exchange for this shiity scrap of paper. You already know the promise won’t be kept therefore paper money and coins are just tokens in a barter system. The money only has value for as long as everyone agrees there is a value. When they decide the value is just an empty promise, all bets are off.
The UK doesn’t seem to make much stuff anymore. We import cheap tatty crap from China and India et al instead. We have very few natural resources so we have become a service economy.
Trouble is you can only make money from services by doing it better or cheaper than everyone else so a service based economy is always vulnerable to competition. When times are hard services get curtailed. Raw materials will still be in the ground after the hard times have passed. Services that didn’t happen can’t be recovered.
That’s exactly what I was saying.Anyone with any intelligence knows that the British economy has zb all to back the currency up with.But the politicians don’t have much intelligence as I said.
Santa:
All money is an illusion — it is just numbers in an account somewhere. What else could it be?
If you have £100 in the bank (that is your statement has +1000 on it) and you pay me £500, then my account goes up and yours goes down. Nothing else happens; no one takes anything from your bank to mine. You can invest your money — that is you give it to someone else for them to use and they pay you for the benefit. In theory the risk will determine how much they will pay, and overall the good balances the bad; but that is what has gone wrong. Banks were lending large amounts to high risk people at low rates. In Ireland the rate was set by someone else (The EU) so they had no control and now they can’t afford the repayments.
The world runs on this illusion called money and there is no viable alternative (think cowrie shells or gold). If you want to buy a car or a litre of petrol then you need some way of paying for it. You could barter — maybe a chicken would be worth a couple of litres but it would make the accounts a bit difficult.
When we go to work we sell our labour for money; then we use that money to buy stuff. If you are in business then you sell your goods or services for money.
But the relevant bit for this industry is that the service that it provides here is’nt considered of sufficient value,either in money value,or barter,to cover all the costs and taxation involved in providing the service.
Carryfast, you really do need to STFU. I know you post on here to wind people up and you confuse them by using schoolgirl punctuation.
VAT could be 94% and it would not affect the haulier, it would affect the consumer who’s TV was suddenly £300 + VAT and now cost £582.
OK the haulier may have less work, but the manufacturer sells the TV, the store pays the VAT, the store claims the VAT back, the haulier charges the manufacturer VAT etc. etc. etc and at the end of the day they all get that VAT back, except the consumer who is very happy with her new TV
Harry Monk said as much before you started to confuse the issue.
The United Kingdom at the moment has the 3rd lowest standard VAT rate out of 27 countries in the EU
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast, you really do need to STFU. I know you post on here to wind people up and you confuse them by using schoolgirl punctuation.
VAT could be 94% and it would not affect the haulier, it would affect the consumer who’s TV was suddenly £300 + VAT and now cost £582.
OK the haulier may have less work, but the manufacturer sells the TV, the store pays the VAT, the store claims the VAT back, the haulier charges the manufacturer VAT etc. etc. etc and at the end of the day they all get that VAT back, except the consumer who is very happy with her new TV
Harry Monk said as much before you started to confuse the issue.
The United Kingdom at the moment has the 3rd lowest standard VAT rate out of 27 countries in the EU
But that 3 rd lowest standard rate does’nt translate into the 3 rd lowest price of diesel out of 27 countries.But you should stand as an MP if you really think that the economy and/or the road transport industry could withstand a 94% VAT rate.
Paragraphs Carryfast, jesus H ■■■■■ ■■■■■■■ christ use paragraphs.
In the computer world, it is generally accepted that you press the return key twice to end a paragraph and start anew. If you want any chance of people reading what you say, or more importantly paying any attention to it.
If anyone has any doubt as to how much trouble the UK is in, it is time to wake up a little. The cuts promised by the current coalition government count for absolutely nothing. We are bailing a sinking ship, and unless drastic action is taken it will not be recoverable.
The UK public sector stands at over 50% of GDP. That is, the private sector (the productive sector) of the economy is propping up everyone else through taxation, but nowhere near enough. Which leads us on to the monumental amount of borrowing that is currently going on, and of course the monumental interest that goes with that.
If you can spare 70 minutes of your time (most people can’t, in favour of the X factor, or “i’m a nobody, get me back to my sofa”), the following is well worth a watch.
WildGoose:
Paragraphs Carryfast, jesus H ■■■■■ [zb] christ use paragraphs.
In the computer world, it is generally accepted that you press the return key twice to end a paragraph and start anew. If you want any chance of people reading what you say, or more importantly paying any attention to it.
BJD hit the nail on the head, money as we know it is just an illusion, if everyone in the country turned up at their branch to clear out their money and put it under the bed, the banks would run out of the stuff within 20mins, then there would be a right old mess in the streets
VAT is a bad idea, sort of…
The idea of a tax on purchases would mean that we could eliminate all over taxes, like PAYE, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, corporation tax etc etc etc, just have a single ‘consumption tax’ and tax revenue to the government would increase as companies pour into the country to make stuff again, they wouldn’t have to pay any tax, business to business transactions would be exempt, more people would be employed, more jobs means more goods are bought in the shops, ergo more tax to the government, even people working in the black economy, like drugs/prostitution/illegal gambling etc would then be paying tax on the proceeds of their ill gotten gains
The tax system is far too complicated, tax on this, tax on that, what can we tax next? A single tax would be a winner for everybody, even those tossers in Westminster
To be entirely fair, the VAT increase will affect small business if they do not turn over enough in the year to be VAT registered. Everything they buy- product or service- will be more expensive. And the truth is that an increase which will affect the end consumer is bad news in the current climate.
Sadly, the only way the government can gather money right now is by service cuts. The UK is already taxed to death so they can hardly increase income tax anymore.
Curlyfist, the return key is arrowed in the pic… If you read what you type, then every time you need to take a breath tap this key twice… We will have a much better grasp of your nonsense then…
bobthedog:
To be entirely fair, the VAT increase will affect small business if they do not turn over enough in the year to be VAT registered. Everything they buy- product or service- will be more expensive.
You don`t have to reach the VAT threshold to be VAT registered. As you probably know you can still register for VAT and charge it to clients, and claim back the VAT on items you buy for your business.
As for the augument about fuel duty, its not about the VAT aspect on fuel, its the additional levy at source applied by HMRC on behalf of the Government thats causing the confusion.
I know that if I fill up at the pumps and put say £50s worth in the tank, Im effectively paying £7.45ish less than the person next to me, putting the equivelent amount in the tank. Due to claiming the VAT aspect back.
bobthedog:
To be entirely fair, the VAT increase will affect small business the truth is that an increase which will affect the end consumer is bad news in the current climate.
Curlyfist, the return key is arrowed in the pic… If you read what you type, then every time you need to take a breath tap this key twice… We will have a much better grasp of your nonsense then…
I
think
I
get
it
now.But all of those
pontless gaps just seem like waste of time to me. But look on the bright side we’ve found
bobthedog:
To be entirely fair, the VAT increase will affect small business if they do not turn over enough in the year to be VAT registered. Everything they buy- product or service- will be more expensive.
You don`t have to reach the VAT threshold to be VAT registered. As you probably know you can still register for VAT and charge it to clients, and claim back the VAT on items you buy for your business.
As for the augument about fuel duty, its not about the VAT aspect on fuel, its the additional levy at source applied by HMRC on behalf of the Government thats causing the confusion.
I know that if I fill up at the pumps and put say £50s worth in the tank, Im effectively paying £7.45ish less than the person next to me, putting the equivelent amount in the tank. Due to claiming the VAT aspect back.
But if you put £500 worth of diesel in the tank of a truck that’s £500 which you’ve got to pass on to the customer/s one way or another and that’s before you’ve added all of the other costs of running 800 miles.Which in the real world means that the customer will look for another way of sending and collecting a truckload of freight from London to Glasgow return (foreign cabotage operation for example running on cheaper foreign diesel) or the customer won’t transport it by road at all because it’s not economically viable.
Which usually means that if the British road transport industry wants to survive it has to absorb the most of that criminal level of taxation not pass it on to the customer.Which in the real world means more small haulage outfits going broke eventually because the overheads exceed the incomes and a lot of others go under because of lack of work.Which actually means that high fuel taxes result in less revenue not more and more money having to be spent on dole payments to unemployed British drivers etc.
Carryfast:
But if you put £500 worth of diesel in the tank of a truck that’s £500 which you’ve got to pass on to the customer/s
No, that’s £425.53 you have to include in your costs for the job and ensure that the rate you are charging covers this amount, your other costs and still gives a profit. The other £74.47 you get back via your VAT return. When working out your rates you do all your costs at the ex VAT price.
Carryfast:
But if you put £500 worth of diesel in the tank of a truck that’s £500 which you’ve got to pass on to the customer/s
No, that’s £425.53 you have to include in your costs for the job and ensure that the rate you are charging covers this amount, your other costs and still gives a profit. The other £74.47 you get back via your VAT return. When working out your rates you do all your costs at the ex VAT price.
No it’s £500 worth of diesel which the end customer has to pay for.
But most of that is tax.
Which the end customer has to pay for.
But which the customer would’nt have to pay as much for (in the context of fuel costs) if the freight went on a foreign truck running on cheaper fuel bought somewhere else.Or if the load went by plane or by train.In which case less work for British drivers which means more dole payments and less tax or,no tax at all,for the greedy,stupid,zb’s who run the government.
Put it in simple terms the vat increase is not to much of a problem for hauliers as most hauliers will be vat registerd due to the high cash turnover due to the sheer costs of running trucks. Also the majority of hauliers work will be business to business transactios for example you own a factory and i move a load for you i charge say £1000 plus vat so the bill is £1117.50 you claim the vat back on your vat return and me the haulier has to pay the vat to the government on my return so over the three months of the vat quarter ive collected say £10000 in vat on my invoices but ive paid out £5000 in vat on fuel spare parts etc i pay the government £5000.
Its different if you are doing something like house removals as the user of your service is probbaly not a business so you charge vat but the customer has no way to claim the money back.
In my opinion the best tax system would be as newmercman says a direct tax we pay no income or stealth taxes but every item of goods or service we use has a blanket tax of say 20% on the price and there is no way of avoiding as we al have to buy things and drugs and criminal money is been taxed and the rich pay more as the more income we have the more likley we are to spend more.
Carryfast:
But if you put £500 worth of diesel in the tank of a truck that’s £500 which you’ve got to pass on to the customer/s
No, that’s £425.53 you have to include in your costs for the job and ensure that the rate you are charging covers this amount, your other costs and still gives a profit. The other £74.47 you get back via your VAT return. When working out your rates you do all your costs at the ex VAT price.
No it’s £500 worth of diesel which the end customer has to pay for.
No it’s not. If the pump shows £500 for fuel to do a particular job it is fuel which has cost you £425.53, so when you are working out the rate to charge the person you are doing the job for you include that cost of £425.53. You invoice that customer the rate for the job and he pays that invoice which covers, among other costs, your fuel cost of £425.53.
Carryfast:
But if you put £500 worth of diesel in the tank of a truck that’s £500 which you’ve got to pass on to the customer/s
No, that’s £425.53 you have to include in your costs for the job and ensure that the rate you are charging covers this amount, your other costs and still gives a profit. The other £74.47 you get back via your VAT return. When working out your rates you do all your costs at the ex VAT price.
No it’s £500 worth of diesel which the end customer has to pay for.
But most of that is tax.
Which the end customer has to pay for.
But which the customer would’nt have to pay as much for (in the context of fuel costs) if the freight went on a foreign truck running on cheaper fuel bought somewhere else.Or if the load went by plane or by train.In which case less work for British drivers which means more dole payments and less tax or,no tax at all,for the greedy,stupid,zb’s who run the government.
I agree about the high tax on fuel but to be fair thats a whole different argument than what we are talking about here.
.But that did’nt answer my question as to what would happen to North the American road transport industry if it was subjected to a diesel price the same as here and then tried to pass those costs on to the final user assuming that other modes of transport like rail and air remain the same 
.
