At a recent roundtable with one of the top bosses a driver brought up the subject. We started to use trains early last year initially it hit our depot significantly until we got thrown more work from another depot that was over stretched. I don’t know the in’s and outs of the contract but they take four heavy loads a day down south. Can’t increase this as all the places on the train are full to capacity which is good news for us drivers.
So the big bossman was asked which is cheaper road or rail, he said road although rail still gave them a slight profit. He said if they ever lost their subsidy from the government they would actually make a loss
But he then said the company would be prepared to absorb the loss to keep the green credentials it gets using rail.
How ■■■■■■■ stupid is that to make a loss to keep the tree huggers happy
Problem with trains is the freight will have to go on a wagon at some point, longggg distance yes it will be a good idea, but our rail network is crap so keep the work coming
dave:
i presume freight trains run on red diesel, and do they have tax, insurance and mots. genuine question
Of course they run on cheap fuel. They will be self insured like all large companies. Trains and engines (the train is the waggons behind the engine) will have a stricter service and inspection schedule than most trucks.
No “tax” as such, but they have to pay their share of the track costs - so, since there are far fewer trains than cars/trucks, that will be qite a lage part of the cost of a train.
One of the problems with the railway is capacity, as you realise you can only run one train at a time one way and there is a distance between trains for safety, plus some trains i,e fast passenger trains going at twice the speed of your average freight train have priority over the slower freight.
In the 70s/80s when I was a signalman, the British Rail management with the approval of the Tory government embarked on regime of corporate vandalism, they “identified” where savings could be made, part of these savings were ripping out any track, sidings/run rounds, any bit of track which in THEIRE opinion was not utilised efficiently. on the grounds that it cost (then) £5000 pound per track mile to maintain, this despite howls from the blokes on the job/unions, one of the bits they were going to rip out for instance was the Settle /Carlisle line, despite the fact that every time the West Coast main line shuts, its one of the few ways to keep trains moving, fortunately they were defeated on that one, but they did rip out hundreds and hundreds of miles of sidings etc, that is one reason that MORE stuff does not go by rail, no space.
On Friday night I parked in a layby near the back of Forton services as I had a spare 30 mins and wanted to top up on some shut-eye and a train went past literally every 5 minutes. That was about 1am, it won’t be any quieter during the day.
I’m sure railtrack used to transport loads of stuff by road because it was too expensive by rail even for them.
Sending a load by rail means using a truck to get to the raihead then a train then a truck at the other railhead.Take out subsidies and 1 truck has to be cheaper, unless its a very long distance.
This is how bright rail cargo is, firm I worked picked up the new points for potters bar from wales I think on way back to yard he had to go near potters bar ( had hi-ab too) so called in to deliver, sorry driver they supposed to go to peterborough, oh ok then off he toddles back to yard at sandy on A1, goes to peterborough next day, the guy said great been waiting for this it’s urgent has to be in potters bar asap!!! they loaded on a train boggey, our driver told them he took it there yesterday they sent it here, I think too many cheifs and not enough indians, HOW GREEN IS THAT
dave:
i presume freight trains run on red diesel, and do they have tax, insurance and mots. genuine question
I believe train operators have to pay Track Access Fees when they run trains, however these are set by the state and are used in such a way as to encourage freight onto the railway, i.e. they have a tendency to go down not up at times. As to whether they pay duty an their fuel I don’t know, or if their costs fully recover the “environmental cost” of the trains - pollution etc.
I do know that it’s very hard to alter a schedule tho. Rockware at Doncaster wanted to run an extra train a week for sand deliveries (a few years ago) and 12 months later this extra train had not been rosterred. As the only thing it did was Kings Lynn to Doncaster three days a week it wasn’t exactly overworked.
If they gave road transport some decent weight regs like just axle weight limits only with no gross weight limits,length limits which allow two 45 foot semis or a 6 or eight wheeler rigid pulling a 45 footer drawbar and no fuel tax like rail pays rail freight would probably be wiped out in 6 months.But even as things are now it’s only road fuel taxation and hours and speed regulations and so called ‘green’ subsidies which allows rail to even stand a chance in the market place.But the government have rigged the system against road transport for political reasons.
fuse:
Large quantities form Ato B rail can not be beeten,anything else you need trucks at each end to finish the journey
Large quantities from A to B anywhere in Europe at present being hauled by East European road transport operators which beats rail while British ones are taxed off the road to protect the rail freight interests which use trucks at each end to finish the journey which costs more than using one truck.
Why can’t we go back and use the canal system, it is there in good working order, exellent access between , London, Midlands, Manchester.
It could be used for all sorts of things but mainly things like Aggregates , bricks , blocks, coal etc.
People will say that it is slow, but for non time sensitive items it would be ideal, and it is very green.
The canal system goes into the very center of all our major cities, Birmingham has more canals than venice!
fuse:
I am talking about things like coal …ie from mine to power station and things of that nature
But the government also want general freight to be moved the same way which is the basis of intermodal type operations which would’nt be economical if there was a fair and level playing field between road and rail transport.But even bulk products like aggregates etc can be moved over long distances efficiently by road in cases where there are no rail heads at each end of the journey.
Deepinvet:
Why can’t we go back and use the canal system, it is there in good working order, exellent access between , London, Midlands, Manchester.
It could be used for all sorts of things but mainly things like Aggregates , bricks , blocks, coal etc.
People will say that it is slow, but for non time sensitive items it would be ideal, and it is very green.
The canal system goes into the very center of all our major cities, Birmingham has more canals than venice!
But they found out years ago that no product is that non time sensitive which is why canal transport became obsolete.
this is the reply i got from a question as to why if the railway is so good, heavy hauliers are contracted to take locomotives & rolling stock by road not rail ;
When freight is moved by rail its mainly in bulk,ie 2000 tonnes plus by train.The train company pays an access charge to network rail.which is a fraction of the revenue of the load being transported. One 3200hp loco can move 2500 to 3000 tonne in one go at a max speed of 60 to 75 mph.Just work out how many artics that would be needed to move such a load.On average a class 66 locomotive will do one mile per gallon flat out.Once up to speed they spend most of the time below that output or coasting. Moving shunting locos by road is faster but NOT cheaper.Network rail signaling is like air traffic control,Passenger and freight are timed to run so they do not cause each other delays,but putting a slown shunting loco on the MAIN LINE track it would cause untold delays.Like putting a Fordson major on the M4 The reason,the locos have a max speed of 15 to 27 mph.Due to the slow speed this would cause problems to rail operators due to slowing up services.Therefore its better for all that they are moved by road.Average cost would be £2000 per trip. ALL freight services are run to a very strict timetable as per passenger trains.A lot of people think freight just goes from a to b in its own time.In fact some freight are run to such a tight time table,penalties are incurred if late,ranging from £90 per minute to £400. Rail freight is increasing year on year.The firm I work for can transport item from Eastern Europe to the Uk faster than any other transport.Stobart have just signed up with us in recents months. Hope this explains how it works.
My interest in all things transport is well known and I see the complete intermodal system as a solution rather than always as a problem to drivers. It can and does work together especially in Europe. The trains run from the major ports and manufacturing areas alongside lorries and inland shipping. In Holland fresh Milk is carried by Barge as is sugar, wine, edible oils and fruit juice. The rail network is superb and most factories and transport companies have a rail link to the premises. Containers are carried by barge, tractors are backloaded to the major ports from Germany.
Of course they have the infrastructure built up over many years and a slightly larger drawing board to work with. Major rivers like the Danube, Schelde, Seine and the Rhine carry millions of tonnes of freight every year. Some of the Dutch cruisers are like floating palaces and operated as family businesses like owner operators. From the small container barges to the gargantuan deep sea ships.
Vlardingen Rotterdam.
Hamburg towards the Koelandbrucke
These are the 300 tonne barges we still operate on the Aire and Calder Navigation in the UK. The ports of britain are supplied by coasters and short sea vessels like operated by John H Whittaker Tankers. The major chemical manufacturers are supplied with feedstock carried in these vessels to terminals like Immingham, Seal Sands and Workington. Sometimes in a sensitive area, hundreds of lorry journeys are saved with carrying dangerous goods on ships, trains and barges but the manufactured finished product can then be carried on lorries safely.
Mentioned earlier the rail companies were selling off land and there is a lack of space to expand as real estate is worth more in the short term to greedy shareholders. The former carriage works in York, the wagon works in Derby are worth far more to David Lloyd, Duncan Bannatyne and B&Q etc. The Lib Dems have said they will cut spending on roads and put it into rail services. It is a dream gone wrong, everyone is too independent to wait for the 10.23 and too lazy to walk down the platform to the train.
Passenger Trains will always take priority over freight trains, passenger cars always take priority over lorries in the big plan, look at operation stack, the police can legally park millions upon millions of pounds worth of freight on a motorway for days on end so Joe and Josephine Public can nip over for their duty frees and to visit their holiday home. Look at the way the ferries companies act, a coachload of spotty chldren in June is worth far more to them than a fat lorry driver who uses the roro service every week.
We need trains and inland waterways to work alongside us, not against us. There is no secret agenda to put the haulage contractor out of business through low rates, high fuel tax and unfair competition. Trains and ships are designed to move huge weights, lorries are not, our current road infrastructure cannot cope with increased weights, more lorries or less expenditure on maintaining them. We have another problem in the world with the Just In Time mentality, but we are doing stock transfers between such short distances, the roads are congested with non important materials. Why else would a DIY chain or an electrical retailer need so many Regional Distribution Centres. lorries are moving goods between them so that a TV can be in a high street store within 4 hours.
There I think I touched most of the intermodal advantages
.jpg)
