Hi everyone, keeping it brief for now, our lass is screaming to get on Facebook or Farmville or some other nonsense or another 
I will expand on the question later if needs be. My question is: If I work to Domestic Hours and the bosses say they want me to start using my card is it ok NOT to put the tacho to Out of Scope, surely you need to put it to Out of Scope otherwise tacho will assume I am working to EU rules and get very cross when Idont stop for a break at four and a half hours, am I correct with that. Thanks for any feedback.
Highwayhero:
Hi everyone, keeping it brief for now, our lass is screaming to get on Facebook or Farmville or some other nonsense or another
All you are doing is putting a flag onto your days records, saying you are working out of scope.
So your digitacho will get very cross with you if whether you flag it as âOut of Scopeâ. or not
Youâll get a yellow warning at 4.15 hrs driving and your tacho will start flashing. You can clear these by pressing OK on your tacho and whatever buttons you might need to press on your truck. At 4.30 hrs driving youâll get a red warning, same again to clear it.
Every time you switch off and restart, youâll get a warning again, same again to clear it, until you get 45 minutes break in.
A minor point, why would you want to drive for more than 4.30 without a 45 minute break? You can easily take 15 minutes getting a pee and a cuppa and then, later, half an hour putting your feet up and eating your butties. Domestic hours rules can only used in certain, quite limited, circumstances. It can be quite difficult to actually drive for 4.30 without any breaks in driving altogether. Iâd see if I could get my breaks to fit into EU rules to save constantly having my dashboard and tacho flashing lights at me. Itâs also supposed to be a safety thing, allowing drivers sufficient rest to remain alert.
Highwayhero:
Hi everyone, keeping it brief for now, our lass is screaming to get on Facebook or Farmville or some other nonsense or another
As Simon said putting the tachograph out of scope wonât stop the tachograph â â â â â â â â at you to have a break ecât but it will mark on the records that the vehicle was out of scope of EU regulations.
As far as Iâm aware thereâs no legal requirement to use out of scope when yourâe on domestic regulations, but unless youâre always driving to domestic rules how will anyone know what regulations you were working to if you get stopped and itâs not marked on the records 
Apart from that if you donât use out of scope, any tachograph analysis will assume that youâre working to EU regulations which could potentially give you a few infringements.
Out of Scope, Domestic Hours and POA is all â â â â â â â â , if âDriving makes you Tiredâ and Speed Kills, it is ALL speed that kills and ALL driving makes you tired or none of it.
The RTD should have no place in EU rules, the EU rules should be enough, they allow for enough breaks from driving, and therefore stop the driver from becoming tired.
Since 1989 the legislation has been moving towards agreeing work, rest and play time as well as driving
EC Directive 93/104 started this in 1993 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠104:en:pdf
followed by EC Directive 2002/15 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠039:EN:PDF which interestingly says;
(1) Council Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 of 20 December
1985 on the harmonisation of certain social legislation
relating to road transport (4) laid down common rules
on driving times and rest periods for drivers; that Regulation
does not cover other aspects of working time for
road transport.(2) Council Directive 93/104/EC of 23 November 1993
concerning certain aspects of the organisation of
working time (5) makes it possible to adopt more
specific requirements for the organisation of working
time. Bearing in mind the sectoral nature of this
Directive, the provisions thereof take precedence over
Directive 93/104/EC by virtue of Article 14 thereof.
(6) The scope of this Directive covers only mobile workers
employed by transport undertakings established in a
Member State participating in mobile road transport
activities covered by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or,
failing that, by the European agreement concerning the
work of crews of vehicles engaged in international road
transport (AETR).
and finally EC Directive 561/2006 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠013:EN:PDF which states;
(2) Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament and of
the Council of 11 March 2002 on the organisation of the
working time of persons performing mobile road
transport activities (5) requires Member States to adopt
measures which limit the maximum weekly working
time of mobile workers.(3) Difficulties have been experienced in interpreting,
applying, enforcing and monitoring certain provisions
of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 relating to driving time,
break and rest period rules for drivers engaged in
national and international road transport within the
Community in a uniform manner in all Member States,
because of the broad terms in which they are drafted.
At the top and bottom of EC 561/2006 it also states that;
Article 28
Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 is hereby repealed and replaced
by this Regulation. Notwithstanding, paragraphs 1, 2 and 4 of Article 5 of
Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 shall continue to apply until the
dates set out in Article 15(1) of Directive 2003/59/EC.
EC Regulation 3820/85 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠007:EN:PDF
All this mention of precedence and repeal has caused me to revisit the four linked documents and has now got me wondering whether we as âmobile workersâ and the roadside patrols, managers etc. are reading too much from old legislation.
Thanks very much Simon and tachograph for your feedback, I will tell you my concern:The Transport Manager has asked to download everyones Digicards, some of us have never ever used them so he cannot take a download from my card.
On Monday he wants me to use my card, just the once, to put some data on so he can take a download, but upon asking him whether I should set tacho to Out of Scope he says he has spoke to Vosa and I do not need to bother!
That started alarm bells ringing in my head and thought it sounded a bit odd as for all the reasons you have just raised tachograph, my thoughts exactly. I do not think I was at crossed wires with the TM but as you suggest, what happens if I get a tug by Vosa in say 18 months time, all they will see is that I may have done a six hour shift with no breaks and without the âflagsâ there will automatically assume I will have been working to EU rules and therefore give me an infringement for not having a break! I was wondering whether they would do me for incorrect tacho use or something if upon discovering although legally under Domestic Rules I did not require the break, I had committed some kind of offence for wasting their time and not having the tacho set correctly in the first place?
Regarding the breaks issues Simon I am quite fortunate that my employment with the local council obviously means we work to Domestic Rules and although we do take breaks there are lots of instances where the length of time of the shift means they are not necessary. Please take a look at my previous post âMixing Domestic Hours with EU rulesâ dated Sat Oct 27 2012 if you have time to see my predicament with all this.
Regards
Wheel Nut:
Out of Scope, Domestic Hours and POA is all â â â â â â â â , if âDriving makes you Tiredâ and Speed Kills, it is ALL speed that kills and ALL driving makes you tired or none of it.The RTD should have no place in EU rules, the EU rules should be enough, they allow for enough breaks from driving, and therefore stop the driver from becoming tired.
Since 1989 the legislation has been moving towards agreeing work, rest and play time as well as driving
EC Directive 93/104 started this in 1993 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠104:en:pdf
followed by EC Directive 2002/15 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠039:EN:PDF which interestingly says;
(1) Council Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 of 20 December
1985 on the harmonisation of certain social legislation
relating to road transport (4) laid down common rules
on driving times and rest periods for drivers; that Regulation
does not cover other aspects of working time for
road transport.(2) Council Directive 93/104/EC of 23 November 1993
concerning certain aspects of the organisation of
working time (5) makes it possible to adopt more
specific requirements for the organisation of working
time. Bearing in mind the sectoral nature of this
Directive, the provisions thereof take precedence over
Directive 93/104/EC by virtue of Article 14 thereof.(6) The scope of this Directive covers only mobile workers
employed by transport undertakings established in a
Member State participating in mobile road transport
activities covered by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or,
failing that, by the European agreement concerning the
work of crews of vehicles engaged in international road
transport (AETR).and finally EC Directive 561/2006 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠013:EN:PDF which states;
(2) Directive 2002/15/EC of the European Parliament and of
the Council of 11 March 2002 on the organisation of the
working time of persons performing mobile road
transport activities (5) requires Member States to adopt
measures which limit the maximum weekly working
time of mobile workers.(3) Difficulties have been experienced in interpreting,
applying, enforcing and monitoring certain provisions
of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 relating to driving time,
break and rest period rules for drivers engaged in
national and international road transport within the
Community in a uniform manner in all Member States,
because of the broad terms in which they are drafted.At the top and bottom of EC 561/2006 it also states that;
Article 28
Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 is hereby repealed and replaced
by this Regulation. Notwithstanding, paragraphs 1, 2 and 4 of Article 5 of
Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 shall continue to apply until the
dates set out in Article 15(1) of Directive 2003/59/EC.EC Regulation 3820/85 - eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ⌠007:EN:PDF
All this mention of precedence and repeal has caused me to revisit the four linked documents and has now got me wondering whether we as âmobile workersâ and the roadside patrols, managers etc. are reading too much from old legislation.
Thanks for your response Wheel Nut, shall take a look once I have my head back, must have taken me half an hour getting distracted at home, whilst trying to reply to Simon and tachographs posts, yours came through whilst I was replying to them.
Highwayhero:
Thanks very much Simon and tachograph for your feedback, I will tell you my concern:The Transport Manager has asked to download everyones Digicards, some of us have never ever used them so he cannot take a download from my card.
On Monday he wants me to use my card, just the once, to put some data on so he can take a download, but upon asking him whether I should set tacho to Out of Scope he says he has spoke to Vosa and I do not need to bother!
That started alarm bells ringing in my head and thought it sounded a bit odd as for all the reasons you have just raised tachograph, my thoughts exactly. I do not think I was at crossed wires with the TM but as you suggest, what happens if I get a tug by Vosa in say 18 months time, all they will see is that I may have done a six hour shift with no breaks and without the âflagsâ there will automatically assume I will have been working to EU rules and therefore give me an infringement for not having a break! I was wondering whether they would do me for incorrect tacho use or something if upon discovering although legally under Domestic Rules I did not require the break, I had committed some kind of offence for wasting their time and not having the tacho set correctly in the first place?
Regarding the breaks issues Simon I am quite fortunate that my employment with the local council obviously means we work to Domestic Rules and although we do take breaks there are lots of instances where the length of time of the shift means they are not necessary. Please take a look at my previous post âMixing Domestic Hours with EU rulesâ dated Sat Oct 27 2012 if you have time to see my predicament with all this.
Regards
I canât really see the point of using the tachograph once but if thatâs what they want you to do I donât see a problem, the fact that your TM has said that you donât need to use out of scope doesnât really stop you using it, so personally I would.
Using out of scope doesnât affect the records on your driver card nor will affect the download, it just marks the start and end of the vehicle being out of scope, on a printout it just shows as a line across the printout with the symbol for out of scope which if I remember correctly is â- - - - - - - OUT Begin - - - - - - -â and â- - - - - - - OUT End - - - - - - -â when you put it back in scope.
Like I say personally I would use out of scope regardless of what your TM has said 
Wheel Nut:
Out of Scope, Domestic Hours and POA is all â â â â â â â â , if âDriving makes you Tiredâ and Speed Kills, it is ALL speed that kills and ALL driving makes you tired or none of it.The RTD should have no place in EU rules, the EU rules should be enough, they allow for enough breaks from driving, and therefore stop the driver from becoming tired.
~snip~
I donât necessarily agree that domestic regulations are a load of â â â â â â â â , in fact the OPs case is a classic case where domestic rules can sometimes be used to the workers advantage, and âout of scopeâ is merely a way of marking the record to show that the vehicle was out of scope of EU regulations.
As for POA, well as far as I know most people can choose whether or not they use it so I donât see a problem, personally I choose not to use POA so I donât, that doesnât mean I would want to stop others from using it if it benefits them.
âThe RTD should have no place in EU rulesâ, I suspect most people would agree, as would I, nevertheless itâs what we have to live with but has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs issue, especially as he wonât be under the RT(WT)R whilst on domestic regulations
tachograph:
Highwayhero:
Thanks very much Simon and tachograph for your feedback, I will tell you my concern:The Transport Manager has asked to download everyones Digicards, some of us have never ever used them so he cannot take a download from my card.
On Monday he wants me to use my card, just the once, to put some data on so he can take a download, but upon asking him whether I should set tacho to Out of Scope he says he has spoke to Vosa and I do not need to bother!
That started alarm bells ringing in my head and thought it sounded a bit odd as for all the reasons you have just raised tachograph, my thoughts exactly. I do not think I was at crossed wires with the TM but as you suggest, what happens if I get a tug by Vosa in say 18 months time, all they will see is that I may have done a six hour shift with no breaks and without the âflagsâ there will automatically assume I will have been working to EU rules and therefore give me an infringement for not having a break! I was wondering whether they would do me for incorrect tacho use or something if upon discovering although legally under Domestic Rules I did not require the break, I had committed some kind of offence for wasting their time and not having the tacho set correctly in the first place?
Regarding the breaks issues Simon I am quite fortunate that my employment with the local council obviously means we work to Domestic Rules and although we do take breaks there are lots of instances where the length of time of the shift means they are not necessary. Please take a look at my previous post âMixing Domestic Hours with EU rulesâ dated Sat Oct 27 2012 if you have time to see my predicament with all this.
RegardsI canât really see the point of using the tachograph once but if thatâs what they want you to do I donât see a problem, the fact that your TM has said that you donât need to use out of scope doesnât really stop you using it, so personally I would.
Using out of scope doesnât affect the records on your driver card nor will affect the download, it just marks the start and end of the vehicle being out of scope, on a printout it just shows as a line across the printout with the symbol for out of scope which if I remember correctly is â- - - - - - - OUT Begin - - - - - - -â and â- - - - - - - OUT End - - - - - - -â when you put it back in scope.
Like I say personally I would use out of scope regardless of what your TM has said
Mmm, my thoughts exactly, thanks for that, just one more question then: On Monday if I set it to Out of Scope, do I need to take it out of Out of Scope before I set tacho to rest and take my keys out.
I dont know why just had a feeling that once tacho is put to bed and keys are out, the next time anyone gets in it will automatically be set back to EU rules anyway?
Highwayhero:
Mmm, my thoughts exactly, thanks for that, just one more question then: On Monday if I set it to Out of Scope, do I need to take it out of Out of Scope before I set tacho to rest and take my keys out.
I dont know why just had a feeling that once tacho is put to bed and keys are out, the next time anyone gets in it will automatically be set back to EU rules anyway?
I believe youâre spot on with that, as far as Iâm aware once the card is withdrawn the out of scope will be cancelled.
I probably over complicated the issue by also showing the printout marking for when the tachograph was put back in-scope ⌠sorry 
tachograph:
Highwayhero:
Mmm, my thoughts exactly, thanks for that, just one more question then: On Monday if I set it to Out of Scope, do I need to take it out of Out of Scope before I set tacho to rest and take my keys out.
I dont know why just had a feeling that once tacho is put to bed and keys are out, the next time anyone gets in it will automatically be set back to EU rules anyway?I believe youâre spot on with that, as far as Iâm aware once the card is withdrawn the out of scope will be cancelled.
I probably over complicated the issue by also showing the printout marking for when the tachograph was put back in-scope ⌠sorry
Ha ha thats ok, just trying to keep the amount of button pressing down to an absolute minimum if I can, dinnertime now, then You Tube tacho demos and simulators this afternoon, what a dedicated local authority employee I am! 
tachograph:
Wheel Nut:
Out of Scope, Domestic Hours and POA is all â â â â â â â â , if âDriving makes you Tiredâ and Speed Kills, it is ALL speed that kills and ALL driving makes you tired or none of it.The RTD should have no place in EU rules, the EU rules should be enough, they allow for enough breaks from driving, and therefore stop the driver from becoming tired.
~snip~I donât necessarily agree that domestic regulations are a load of â â â â â â â â , in fact the OPs case is a classic case where domestic rules can sometimes be used to the workers advantage, and âout of scopeâ is merely a way of marking the record to show that the vehicle was out of scope of EU regulations.
As for POA, well as far as I know most people can choose whether or not they use it so I donât see a problem, personally I choose not to use POA so I donât, that doesnât mean I would want to stop others from using it if it benefits them.
âThe RTD should have no place in EU rulesâ, I suspect most people would agree, as would I, nevertheless itâs what we have to live with but has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs issue, especially as he wonât be under the RT(WT)R whilst on domestic regulations
Sorry this has come up in the newbie thread, it is much deeper than that. I agree it has nothing to do with the OP question
Tachograph.
The reason I say that the domestic hours are â â â â â â â â is because you can drive for ten hours without a break unless you are driving a bus 
If driving makes you tired when you are on EU Rules, then how can it be safe to drive for 10 hours or even 5.5 hours with passengers?
Like I mentioned there are many parts which should be repealed, but were they overlooked or are we still using old Legislation?
Wheel Nut:
Tachograph.
The reason I say that the domestic hours are â â â â â â â â is because you can drive for ten hours without a break unless you are driving a busLike I mentioned there are many parts which should be repealed, but were they overlooked or are we still using old Legislation?
I agree that the domestic regulations are far from perfect, but if you take the situation in this thread where someone is driving a vehicle that most likely will be moving no more than a few yards at a time at-least for parts of the day, the domestic regulations allow a great deal of flexibility and it seems unlikely that road safety would be much of an issue.
Having said that Iâve never done the job so I could be well off the mark.
But yes, where youâre talking about being able to do 10 hour drives without a break that is a strange law in this day and age, I donât really understand why the domestic regulations for goods vehicle drivers were made quite so lenient
Were the domestic regs made back in the 60s ?
ROG:
Were the domestic regs made back in the 60s ?
The last traffic act that the domestic regulations are part of came into force in 68 I believe, they were then modified for goods vehicle drivers in 86.
tachograph:
ROG:
Were the domestic regs made back in the 60s ?The last traffic act that the domestic regulations are part of came into force in 68 I believe, they were then modified for goods vehicle drivers in 86.
TA 
The UK Domestic Regs are not something Iâve paid much attention to, so Iâm not really up on them at all. But I seem to remember something about keeping a log book or other method of keeping records of your working time. Iâm guessing that youâll have to carry some back records with you. If you do, your concern about 6 months down the line is covered.
Firstly even we only have to carry 28 days records.
Secondly VOSA canât go further back than 28 days and issue us with an immediate infringement for a 6 month old âmistakeââŚ
If, when checking back in your 28 days records, they find quite a few infringements they can look further back to see if this is a pattern of regular rule infringement. They can then use this âevidenceâ if they feel itâs warranted and âraidâ the yard.
All of any records you are carrying would show you are working to UK Domestic Regs, so you wonât have any problems on that score. Even if you donât have to carry records, County Council on the door would give them a clue and directing them to the council yard so they can conduct an investigation would almost certainly clinch it.
If youâre concerned about working for another employer, on EU Regs, some time in the future. Then the same applies. The council will have records of your employment with them to support you.
Thanks for that Simon, you could obviously see where I was coming from with my concern, the only thing I can assume may be an issue is the fact that I will very rarely use my card ie, never on the bins but now and again for the gritters through the bad weather period. This, as I understand it means it will take a lot longer for the info on the card to get full, then start overwriting itself, I assume with not many entries on the card, the actual information that can be seen at a glance would go back possibly a few years if I hardly ever use it? Having said all that, even if a couple of years down the line I did get a tug , and I had actually put the âflagsâ on previously suggesting Out of Scope driving, a Vosa officer may or may not take that at face value anyway and do some digging regardless. My problem is I tend to look too deeply into some things, everywhere you look nowadays are people trying to take your money,fines for this and fines for that, I could just imagine getting fined for not programming the tacho properly in the first place even if further investigation confirmed I did not have to follow EU regs! Ps, another one of my problems is waffling!
Highwayhero:
Thanks for that Simon, you could obviously see where I was coming from with my concern, the only thing I can assume may be an issue is the fact that I will very rarely use my card ie, never on the bins but now and again for the gritters through the bad weather period. This, as I understand it means it will take a lot longer for the info on the card to get full, then start overwriting itself, I assume with not many entries on the card, the actual information that can be seen at a glance would go back possibly a few years if I hardly ever use it? Having said all that, even if a couple of years down the line I did get a tug , and I had actually put the âflagsâ on previously suggesting Out of Scope driving, a Vosa officer may or may not take that at face value anyway and do some digging regardless. My problem is I tend to look too deeply into some things, everywhere you look nowadays are people trying to take your money,fines for this and fines for that, I could just imagine getting fined for not programming the tacho properly in the first place even if further investigation confirmed I did not have to follow EU regs! Ps, another one of my problems is waffling!
It will take many years to overwrite info on your card, but it doesnât matter how far back they can see âat a glanceâ. They canât âdoâ you on the spot, for something that happened more than 28 days ago.
Whatever youâve been reading, VOSA, the Police, etc are NOT out to âDoâ you for every little thing.
Simon:
Highwayhero:
Thanks for that Simon, you could obviously see where I was coming from with my concern, the only thing I can assume may be an issue is the fact that I will very rarely use my card ie, never on the bins but now and again for the gritters through the bad weather period. This, as I understand it means it will take a lot longer for the info on the card to get full, then start overwriting itself, I assume with not many entries on the card, the actual information that can be seen at a glance would go back possibly a few years if I hardly ever use it? Having said all that, even if a couple of years down the line I did get a tug , and I had actually put the âflagsâ on previously suggesting Out of Scope driving, a Vosa officer may or may not take that at face value anyway and do some digging regardless. My problem is I tend to look too deeply into some things, everywhere you look nowadays are people trying to take your money,fines for this and fines for that, I could just imagine getting fined for not programming the tacho properly in the first place even if further investigation confirmed I did not have to follow EU regs! Ps, another one of my problems is waffling!It will take many years to overwrite info on your card, but it doesnât matter how far back they can see âat a glanceâ. They canât âdoâ you on the spot, for something that happened more than 28 days ago.
Whatever youâve been reading, VOSA, the Police, etc are NOT out to âDoâ you for every little thing.
And it will get easier when the new police commissioner realises he has to save another 75k from his budget just to pay his own wages 