Terrible for the victims and the families of the deceased, people lost limbs as the coach dragged along the ground on it’s side. The driver is looking at 14 years in prison if convicted.
we don’t know the driver was speeding 
only tacho analysis can prove/disprove that
eyewitness attempts at guessing speeds are usually wrong!!
It’s a driver doing his job, lets not hang him until the facts are known 
Hear hear
I went passed this yesterday morning, when it was coned off.
I was joining off the M4 to go anti clockwise and the speed limit on that slip is 30MPH.
My heart goes out to the victims of this accident.
One thing puzzles me tho’
I’ve been following this on the t.v news and it seems from the footage (and commentary) that the coach was joining the M25 northbound from the eastbound M4
If the driver was going from London to Aberdeen why was he on the London bound carriageway?
Also I may be wrong but my understanding of tacho law says that if a bus or coach is on a sheduled route running to a timetable the a tachograph dosn’t have to be fitted.
Terrible accident, my condolences to the bereaved families, and best wishes to the injured.
Having driven double decker coaches in the past (although never on that bit of road) I can say they can be a real handful, especially in the wind and rain.
You have good reason to be concerned Jammy, I have driven the 16 footers on the motorway in high winds and believe me they can be lethal!
As for N2N’s comment regarding who was pushing him to make up the time. Well, I personally have never worked for National Express but I know quite a few who have, and they were always complaining that the traffic managers were always ringing them up if they were late, trying to get them to get back on schedule, says a lot eh…
After saying that, we just don’t know the cause yet, we’ll have to wait for the outcome of the investigation.
north surrey haulage:
If the driver was going from London to Aberdeen why was he on the London bound carriageway?
He had just left Heathrow and had come from the M4 westbound. The slip roads from the M4 west and eastbound merge before they actually join the M25 northbound and I think by the time it crashed it was at the point were the two slips merge.
north surrey haulage:
Also I may be wrong but my understanding of tacho law says that if a bus or coach is on a sheduled route running to a timetable the a tachograph dosn’t have to be fitted.
As far as I am aware, buses running on LOCAL routes less than 50km need not use a tacho as this would make it UK domestic rules?
The long distance coaches run on the EU rules, at least that’s my understanding anyway. So in this case the driver will have been using his tachograph.
Slighty off topic but i I have also been required to use a tacho when doing a contract for Metro in West Yorks a few months ago. And their runs were only local in a Merc mini-bus, I was told it was in case of accidents etc…who knows, we just do what they ask eh?
Regarding the slips…
The emergency services refer to slips
on a basis of where the vehicle has come
from and where it was going…
For instance if you were travelling on the
M40 East bound and left to join the M25
North bound they would refer to this slip
as the West North slip.
Because you came from the West and
you’re heading North.
Try working out which is the South West
slip at 3 in the morning.
It aint easy.
Coffeeholic:
north surrey haulage:
If the driver was going from London to Aberdeen why was he on the London bound carriageway?He had just left Heathrow and had come from the M4 westbound. The slip roads from the M4 west and eastbound merge before they actually join the M25 northbound and I think by the time it crashed it was at the point were the two slips merge.
National Express said the coach was the 592 service from London Victoria to Aberdeen, via Heathrow, Carlisle, Hamilton, Glasgow and Dundee. It left London at 10:30 p.m. and was due to arrive in Scotland at 10:25 a.m.
jammymutt:
Coffeeholic:
north surrey haulage:
If the driver was going from London to Aberdeen why was he on the London bound carriageway?He had just left Heathrow and had come from the M4 westbound. The slip roads from the M4 west and eastbound merge before they actually join the M25 northbound and I think by the time it crashed it was at the point were the two slips merge.
National Express said the coach was the 592 service from London Victoria to Aberdeen, via Heathrow, Carlisle, Hamilton, Glasgow and Dundee. It left London at 10:30 p.m. and was due to arrive in Scotland at 10:25 a.m.
That’s what I said jammy, he had not long left the Heathrow stop.
Just saw the pictures for the first time today, it is plain to see that the coach tipped onto its left hand side at the point where the bend kinks much tighter to the right(as has been previously stated). It is plain to see the kink in the road from the photo, a quick over correction to the right and the outcome is clear.
One interesting point raised on another forum was relating to double decker coaches allowing passenger ticket allocation. If 90% of the passengers want to sit on the top deck for the view or the quieter ride coupled to the amount of luggage weight being carried in the hold the simple laws of gravity say that it will turn over. If this is the case and it is the drivers responsibility to ensure safe weight distribution and the safety of his passengers then how can the coach companies pre-allocate tickets. It is surely up to the driver to tell people where they can and can’t sit, not such a problem on a normal coach but on Double deckers deadly.
The interesting point would be to see how old he is and how much experiance he has, another point to note is the old bill dont arrest someone unless they have reasonable doubt of suspicion.
All we can do is watch this space and see what happens and hope the bus was at fault as i personally hate double deckers whether they be buses or trailers.
i dont really know … i thinks its hard to pass judgement, the driver was obviously speeding on the junction and got caught out ( that is how accidents happen )… to be fair a 12 hour journey from london to aberdeen does seem a bit keen, but he would be through the worst bits of the m25 and birmingham at night when it would have been dead 
so what do you think can you do it. 
ive done huntingdon to leeds then loaded and onto aberdeen in a 10 hour drive. so i think personally london to aberdeen 2 drivers so no breaks apart from stops to pick up and drop passengers its just about on the limit at 62 ish ( a little bit more than an ish ).
paul261267:
north surrey haulage:
Also I may be wrong but my understanding of tacho law says that if a bus or coach is on a sheduled route running to a timetable the a tachograph dosn’t have to be fitted.As far as I am aware, buses running on LOCAL routes less than 50km need not use a tacho as this would make it UK domestic rules?
The long distance coaches run on the EU rules, at least that’s my understanding anyway. So in this case the driver will have been using his tachograph.
Slighty off topic but i I have also been required to use a tacho when doing a contract for Metro in West Yorks a few months ago. And their runs were only local in a Merc mini-bus, I was told it was in case of accidents etc…who knows, we just do what they ask eh?
The bus company i work for has buses that run under 50km,s and as you say they are not required to use tachos and work to the domestic hrs regs,but we also have runs that are over 50km,and although we dont have tachos we do work to the eu regs on drivers hrs,i can only assume that as someone else has said it is down to been set to a timetable,condolences to all involved in the above,
jammymutt:
The interesting point would be to see how old he is and how much experiance he has, another point to note is the old bill dont arrest someone unless they have reasonable doubt of suspicion.
.
I must admit that i feel the same as you, especialy as they didnt arrest him until about 11.30am, nearly 12hrs after the event. To me that says intial investigations throw up some questioned to be answered. I thought they said he was in his 40’s.
Obviously you feel sympathy to the nearest and dearest of those killed or injured. But i do feel a sympathy to the Coach driver, he may or may not have been the architect of this calamity, but he will still have this with him for the rest of his life, and like us he was just doing his job.
N2N Transport:
Just saw the pictures for the first time today, it is plain to see that the coach tipped onto its left hand side at the point where the bend kinks much tighter to the right(as has been previously stated). It is plain to see the kink in the road from the photo, a quick over correction to the right and the outcome is clear..
I was just going by what was said on the BBC London tv news on the morning of the crash.You could see over the journalists shoulder (who was standing on a bridge over the M4 carriageway) the slip road that was closed and it was the left hand lane (of the 2 on the slip road) that was closed only.
If the coach was going westbound from Heathrow then I would assume it would’ve been the right hand lane of the slip road that would close also the journalist said he was looking at the Eastbound M4
I thought the driver may have missed his slip onto the M25 for some reason and turned around at J5 (Colnbrook) and came back or before I knew the route maybe he had a pickup from Reading or Slough.
Without being there I have no idea how the accident happend and wasn’t trying to analyse the accident.At the end of the day if it is the drivers fault he is going to have to live with it for the rest of his life (not belittling what the relatives or victims feel) and if it is down to a known fault (as some industry “experts” have hinted at in interviews) then sombody at the top should be punished and not let the buck stop at the driver who it seems inevitably will be prosecuted in one way or another
That would explain a lot ,if he had missed his turn off & backtracked at Colnebrook. Because at the slip you have described I don’t think that there is a speed limit…I kinda got the idea he was coming down a hill.? The M4 London bound slip turning M25 Watford is wide & flat…The mystery deepens.
eddie snax:
I must admit that i feel the same as you, especialy as they didnt arrest him until about 11.30am, nearly 12hrs after the event. To me that says intial investigations throw up some questioned to be answered.
To me it says that he was quite possibly at the hospital being treated for injuries and was arrested after that treatment.
BBC News:
All those on board the coach, 67 passengers and two drivers, were taken to hospital following the crash.
I also think it would be standard practice to arrest the driver after an accident involving death so he could be questioned under caution and have legal representation, as much for his benefit as the police. That shows the whole problem with this debate and jumping to conclusions. Two people hear the exact same thing and have an opposite take on the matter.
Personally I don’t think the road layout can be blamed, thousands of vehicles successfully negotiate that slip road every day and we all travel roads for the first time during the course of our work and we deal with them, mostly without incident, although if we are all honest we would admit to occasions when we have thought to ourself - “[zb], nearly got that wrong.” That leaves a couple of possibilities, driver error or some kind of failure with the vehicle and we have no way of knowing which of those it was. Once the investigation is complete we will learn what caused this accident, either through a report or a court case and until then the driver is presumed innocent
north surrey haulage:
I was just going by what was said on the BBC London tv news on the morning of the crash.You could see over the journalists shoulder (who was standing on a bridge over the M4 carriageway) the slip road that was closed and it was the left hand lane (of the 2 on the slip road) that was closed only.If the coach was going westbound from Heathrow then I would assume it would’ve been the right hand lane of the slip road that would close also the journalist said he was looking at the Eastbound M4
He was. I saw that report and the reporter was standing on a bridge between junction 5 of the M4 and the M25, and looking toward the slip road he was looking at the London bound carriageway of the M4. Remember this was a big recovery operation and the slip roads from the M4 east and west merge well before joining the M25 clockwise and by the time it went over he was down the slope of the west to north slip and at the merge point. This meant that both slips from the M4 to the M25 clockwise were closed for a while and from where the reporter was standing that would be the left lane of the exit, the right lane being the slip to the M25 anticlockwise.
harry:
I kinda got the idea he was coming down a hill.?
He was Harry, as you know the slip coming from Heathrow and joining the M25 towards Watford and the M1 climbs up, over the M4 and back down the other side.
Yeah ,I noticed where the bus lay it was single lane. And that makes it Heathrow / Watford direction…And the 40 MPH advisory…