truckoff!

[alix776]

lucy you only have to look at what happened in london most of the lorry park closed down/sold for other more financially viable projects unfortunatly road saftey os all well and good when the goverment has the funds to increase speed cameras but as for providing place for people to comply with laws already in force there not interested

for example there was a shceme in perston to use the park and ride car park to be used as a lorry park between 1800 and 0700 this was not put through due to local residents objection so the plan has been scrapped and currently there is no parking provision in the local area apart from motorway services

[Lucy]

It just goes on and on, doesn’t it?

[harry_monk]

Just the title of their campaign gives their game away. “Truckoff” is obviously intended to rhyme with, and be a play on words on “■■■■ Off” which is one of the English Language’s more offensive and antagonistic terms.

It’s the old. old story. Tim wants a computer, and shoes, and corn flakes, toilet paper, to read a newspaper and drink a cup of coffee. But if you drive the vehicle which delivers these things to him, then you can just “truckoff”.

[jonah_1]

timprater:
Finally, as this started, I’m a local campaigner in Folkestone. I was running a specific campaign to deal with unsuitable parking in a specific road. The responses I’ve received from drivers - lots of positive, some less so - have made me interested in looking at this wider issue in the Lib Dem party - which hopefully may come up with some useful ideas (like, for example, there being proper lorry parking provision built into any service station development). I hope I can help - a bit.

---

Tim Prater
Shepway Lib Dems

Well Tim you’re in luck as I can give you some advice straight away

DONT BOTHER CONTACTING YOUR SHADOW TRANSPORT SECRETARY

TOM BRAKE.

I have already tried this with regard to this very subject (L.G.V parking) within his own constituency (and mine) and he just passed the buck to a council employee (Lib-Dem) who was remarkably ill informed of the law especially when you consider he is in charge of enforcing it.

He actually thinks that All lorries are banned from moving inside London from 18.00 - 06.00 7 days a week so “therefore they would be no requirement to supply a lorry park”

[flying_fenman]

north surrey haulage:

timprater:
Finally, as this started, I’m a local campaigner in Folkestone. I was running a specific campaign to deal with unsuitable parking in a specific road. The responses I’ve received from drivers - lots of positive, some less so - have made me interested in looking at this wider issue in the Lib Dem party - which hopefully may come up with some useful ideas (like, for example, there being proper lorry parking provision built into any service station development). I hope I can help - a bit.

---

Tim Prater
Shepway Lib Dems

Well Tim you’re in luck as I can give you some advice straight away

DONT BOTHER CONTACTING YOUR SHADOW TRANSPORT SECRETARY

TOM BRAKE.

I have already tried this with regard to this very subject (L.G.V parking) within his own constituency (and mine) and he just passed the buck to a council employee (Lib-Dem) who was remarkably ill informed of the law especially when you consider he is in charge of enforcing it.

He actually thinks that All lorries are banned from moving inside London from 18.00 - 06.00 7 days a week so “therefore they would be no requirement to supply a lorry park”

Oh dear…

[wheel_nut]

As with all political nimbys, God will judge their results

[timprater]

Where is Shepway’s new lorry park going to be built Tim?

Actually, there already is a lorry park at Folkestone Harbour: see their web site for more details.

There has just been granted planning permission for a new service station at junction 11 of the M20 (which actually is in Shepway) which includes a lorry park within the facility.

There is also a lorry park proposed for Operation Stack overflow at Aycliff by the Dover Harbour Board, which they seem to hope will include 500 overnight lorry parking places. OK - that’s Dover, but hopefully still useful (as only 5 miles away from Folkestone).

Depending on the progress of the Aycliff site, it may be that more spaces in other sites are going to be needed, and certainly, the J11 service station seems to have quite a small lorry site in the current plans, but hopefully there are actually some possible ways forward already.

Hope that helps!

[Lucy]

See now, this is where I start getting seriously irritated.

Mr Prator, with reference to your reply above…

1. Yes, there is a lorry park in Folkestone. One which you yourself have already admitted is too small.

2. If they build a new one at J11, it will be EXTREMELY expensive for drivers to use, just as all other MSAs are. It will also NOT be in Folkestone, which is where extra parking is obviously needed.

3. Ditto Operation Stack. It will cost money to park there and be absolutely no use whatsoever if you run out of legal driving hours whilst delivering to Folkestone…at Folkestone’s convenience…to a place where Folkestone people have JOBS…which earn them MONEY to buy all those lovely consumer durables that come in by TRUCK!!!

So no, I’m sorry, but none of those three provides an adequate solution, does it?

On a side note, because I can imagine what your response may well be…NO the drivers should NOT have to pay to park. “Why not?” I hear you cry…well because:

1. We don’t set the laws that make the times - and hence the locations - at which we must park up so rigid.
2. We don’t have any desire to come to Folkestone in the first place, we are there because YOU people need and want us there to service the place.
3. It’s Joe Public that insists on road safety being ensured.
4. It’s Joe Public that doesn’t want us parking in unsuitable places because there’s nowhere else and we can’t afford to pay the extortionate rates at the Motorway Services…even if we did have enough driving time left to get there!!!
5. If it were compulsary for every Council up and down the land to provide FREE overnight parking places with 24 hr toilets attached, we would all be paying equally since drivers pay Poll Tax in their home towns. Far fairer than effectively taxing drivers individually for complying with the law. Drivers are Joe Public too, remember…

There is only one solution for this in the long run, Mr Prator. Get all your campaigners to go around and count the number of trucks parked up in the town at night. Do this again over a few days. Work out a mean figure, and then either build a basic free parking facility or allow the trucks to use Shoppers’ Carparks at night.

Then you can put bollards and signs along your layby and signs around your town so that anyone coming through actually knows where to find it!!!
Joined up thinking, look. It’s not hard.

[timprater]

Lucy - I agree with a lot of what you are saying. On one point:

It will also NOT be in Folkestone, which is where extra parking is obviously needed.

The site we are campaigning about is actually about 100m from J12 of the M20. It’s NOT Folkestone parking in this instance causing the problem - it’s simply a (unsuitable) site very close to a motorway junction.

The huge majority of lorries that were stopping there are foreign, swing off the M20, park up, then swing back onto the M20. there is no sign they are delivering locally.

The J11 service stop would actually be only about 2 miles away and quicker to access from the motorway than the Cheriton High Street problem area.

I’m not personally aware that there are huge problems with lorry parking in residential areas in the rest of Folkestone - but we will take up your suggestion, and go looking.

Equally, there are very few surface car parks left in Folkestone (only two I can think big enough / with good enough access for lorries have just been closed totally while a shopping centre with roof-top parking is being built) - but again - we’ll have a look, and if there is a suitable site, look at asking the council to do as you suggest (but as I mentioned before, the Lib Dems don’t currently run either Kent or Shepway Councils).

I’m not aware the Folkestone Harbour site is full often (don’t spend much time there now, although used to live a few hundred metres from it a couple of years ago) - but the issue there is that they are looking to redevelop, and it out of the way, and not well signed. Given Folkestone’s normal speed of getting developments sorted however, you should have accessible parking for at least the next 20 years…

Do all Motorway Service Stations charge a stupid amount, or does it vary? Looking at the services on the M11 today (I am taking an interest even if I have much to learn!) they seemed to be free to 2 hours, then £12.50 for up to 24 hours (or £15 with a £6 food voucher). Is this usual / higher than average / lower than average?

Finally, as you say, I think there will need to be some central government compulsion involved in the providing of sites (otherwise councils themselves are unlikely to provide facilties for free voluntarily) - and making sure MSA’s are affordable.

[Lucy]

First off my apologies for failing to properly check where the site to which you are refering is situated. With that in mind, I can appreciate the point with regards to the origins and destinations of the vehicles.

That said, the fact that most of the vehicles are foreign gives you an even greater problem, as these drivers are even less likely to pay to use an MSA than their domestic colleagues. The hard fact is this - unless you intend on bringing your residents out to park their cars every single night, then the most you will achieve is a short respite. The drivers aren’t going to find out by word-of-mouth that the layby is unusable, as regular UK visitors to the area might, and will continue to pull off at that junction for all the reasons they are doing it now. Desperation, mainly.

It comes back to the same solution…first off get some signs up pointing to the Harbour lorry park. I assumed it was inadequate because you said that it was…if that’s not the case, give these guys an alternative - a FREE one!!!

Second, get some bollards put in so the verge isn’t being chewed. And a couple of bins for those who do stop there regardless. That’ll go some way towards solving part of the problem - the mess element. I’m ashamed to admit that there will always be a “rougher” element who give us all a bad name by leaving rubbish etc., but they are by no means in the majority…and at least if you offer a bin, then you have the right to complain if it is not used.

Put signs up in the layby itself clearly stating that there is alternative parking. In several different languages. You can have as many English signs as you like, but if the drivers only speak French or German it won’t help, will it?

Next you need to look at the actual need for parking in the town and check that it is met. I’m not just talking about trucks parked in residential areas - I personally am often forced to resort to industrial estate roads for lack of an alternative. That’s equally unacceptable in the long run, so check there too.

In answer to your question, yes, all MSAs charge that sort of amount, some even more. And even now there are many drivers who do not get parking fees refunded by their employer (or only partially ) so they simply can’t afford to shell out every night. Even those of us that do have our parking costs covered have to front them up in cash then reclaim at the end of the week, meaning it’s another week until they are paid back with our wages. If I paid out £12.50 every night of the 4 I am generally out, I would have to always ensure that I could do without £50 of my wages so I had money for the following week (if you’re with me). With a young family and as sole wage-earner, I just can’t do it.

On the Continent, free parking is the rule rather than the exception, and TruckStops and MSAs that do charge normally refund the ENTIRE ticket cost in the form of food. Hence saying that your foreign friends are even less likely to pay out than British drivers…they simply don’t get the money back.

The big difference on the Continent, of course, is that Governments actually subsidise MSAs and Rest Areas so that trucks can stay legal. Which is what should happen here…EU harmonisation and integration and all that…

This desperately needs looking at by Central Government. With a new set of Hours rules plus the latest digital tachos on the horizon, enforcing the law is becoming easier by the day…surely now is the obvious time to be looking at ease of compliance, putting it on the same agenda. Back to joined-up thinking.

What makes me so sad about all this is the number of voters you could be alienating…and the number that the Lib Dems could gain by grasping the nettle on this and other Freight-related issues. So many of the day-to-day concerns of drivers who use these forums are effectively addressed by Party Policy where other parties fail - devolution, electoral reform, tax reforms, sensible moderation in Europe…the list is huge…Imagine the gains to be made by embracing this otherwise somewhat disenfrachised Industry and addressing it’s plight.

If the Menghis Campbell meant what he said about being “Serious about Government” then he needs to be serious about people…all of them. Even the ones who drive, run or own dirty, smelly trucks.

[marcustandy]

jammymutt:
500,000 people visiting this site could be a lot of votes for them if they were the one and only party who actually care about lorry drivers.

This has got to be a key point for any Party that would take on these (transport related) issues. I (for example) am in total decision-limbo with regard to voting; I could be so easily swayed by the first party to actually show knowledge & understanding of the problems, and more importantly, the desire to do something positive and pro-active about it. Show me progress/results and i’ll show you my ‘X’

timprater:
the alteration to the layout of that road to stop this problem

1st example …

timprater:
Equally, there is a Kent County Council plan that will actually stop any parking in that area -

… and 2nd example of the ‘back-to-front’ way of dealing with the problem; plans to stop parking in these areas should be implemented after alternative parking has been made available - not before!!

It’s the same mentality that is used to combat ‘urban congestion’; i.e. make parking/petrol/road tax etc etc so expensive that the motorist is bullied into using the (crap) public transport system. The proper/sensible solution is to provide quality, fairly priced public transport that encourages Joe Public to use it.

timprater:
I hope that facilities will be put here so this is an all year round facility for drivers, and not just used at times of Stack.

… and then look at the above quoted schemes to stop HGV’s parking in undesirable places, not before!

timprater:
or nimby

…up to now, yes, but i’d like to be proved wrong on this one.

Lucy:
Whilst the transferal of freight onto rail is environmentally laudable, it is also unrealistic. The rail infrastructure in this country would need huge investment in order to be able to cope with any mass introduction of additional freight, and the fact that this is cost-prohibitive has been cited by all 3 parties time and time again as the reason why it isn’t actually happening. Bearing that in mind, surely it is rather short sighted for the Party to continue to bang this particular drum?

Lucy:
And, oh look, there’s no policy to address them. Whoops!!!

And this is where the party with the clever thinking could stand out - there’s a lot of transport industry votes to be won out there you know!!

jammymutt:
Having asked the Lablur party to come and have an opinion on here its nice to see the guy actually came and expressed himself unlike the others.

Agreed - credit where it’s due. Now do something pro-active about it and show us results.

timprater:

When are the Lib Dems going to come up with a topical, achieveable and relevant Freight Transport policy?

Not too long after we start to have conversations like this that help actually discuss the problems - with people who understand them becuase they work with them. I’m no lorry driver, and [sat currently in Lib Dem conference in Harrogate] guess very few other people here are either.

But your point is exactly right - and not limited to the Lib Dems. The record of all parties over the last 20 years of dealing with these issues seems to be rotten - there does need to be an understanding of the issues and some joined up thinking.

timprater:
As such we should be looking at ways of ensuring that drivers have the facilities to do their job - safely, and without causing other problems. The lack of parking sites is one. Signposting of sites may be another. Charging for those sites. Enforcing a level playing field (properly) so that UK and overseas drivers are “competing” fairly.

timprater:
Finally, as this started, I’m a local campaigner in Folkestone. I was running a specific campaign to deal with unsuitable parking in a specific road. The responses I’ve received from drivers - lots of positive, some less so - have made me interested in looking at this wider issue in the Lib Dem party - which hopefully may come up with some useful ideas (like, for example, there being proper lorry parking provision built into any service station development). I hope I can help - a bit.

Ahh-ha!! Now we might be getting somewhere…

Lucy:
That, I suppose, is what this boils down to. I really should just stop mithering and get on with it. After all, you’ve got to be in it to change it…

No, sorry - I don’t do ‘things’ that way. I’d need them to show me their true colours (i.e. policy’s and some pro-active progress) before comitting myself. However, the competition should be a push-over as none of the party’s are doing anything at the moment!

timprater:
The J11 service stop would actually be only about 2 miles away and quicker to access from the motorway than the Cheriton High Street problem area.

Please tell me that that drawing of the proposed services (J11, M20) isn’t to scale!!! if it is, 20 HGV parking spaces is merely a drop in the ocean!!

Lucy:
On the Continent, free parking is the rule rather than the exception, and TruckStops and MSAs that do charge normally refund the ENTIRE ticket cost in the form of food. Hence saying that your foreign friends are even less likely to pay out than British drivers…they simply don’t get the money back.

The big difference on the Continent, of course, is that Governments actually subsidise MSAs and Rest Areas so that trucks can stay legal. Which is what should happen here…EU harmonisation and integration and all that…

Now, that’s what your Party should be aiming for!! I’ll promise you my vote if you’s achieve it!!

Lucy:
If the Menghis Campbell meant what he said about being “Serious about Government” then he needs to be serious about people…all of them. Even the ones who drive, run or own dirty, smelly trucks.

Agreed.

[krankee]

I’m not so sure about bollards helping as they would soon get flattened. What we have to remember, particularly with foreign vehicles, is that where they would normally ‘overnight’ on the flat, or where the right side of the vehicle is on a lower camber, and it therefore becomes a habit to sleep with one’s head towards the left of the vehicle. Sleeping with the feet higher than the shoulders, although possibly therapeutic, tends to ‘feel’ unnatural, and therefore when the opportunity arises to raise the left side of the vehicle, by mounting the verge, drivers will adopt this strategy. What many L.A.’s seem to be doing currently is to supplement the kerb line with 2 or 3 feet of concrete that allows such actions without causing additional damage.

Waste bins. Yes please. But stop putting them in the middle of lay-bys. They become a focal point for car drivers who park next to them, regardless of whether they intend to use them or not. The number of times I have wanted to pull into a perfectly adequate lay-by only to find that it is occupied by one or two well spaced cars such that I can neither pull in behind nor in front. Bins should only be placed at the ‘Ends’. And choose a design with an opening that is big enough to take a ‘full’ supermarket carrier. Not something the size of a letterbox. I clear out the cab when the current bag is full, and I don’t want to be trying to squeeze it through some tiny gap, particularly in the Summer when wasps have been attracted to the sugar from discarded soft drink cans.

Another subject that needs looking at is Business Taxation. If my understanding is correct, then any retail business premises is taxed according to its size/volume. No discount is given for areas dedicated to warehousing. Therefore the incentive is to maximise Retail volume/area. The RHA have published figures, which, if I remember correctly, suggest that haulage operates at 30% below capacity. A situation no doubt fuelled by JIT deliveries to stores and supermarkets. Essentially, beyond the Distribution Centres, we operate in this Country a system of ‘mobile warehousing’, simply because it is the most economical way of running an operation, regardless of the effect on society as a whole.

Mr Prator, you have had the courtesy to join the debate. We have some 3,000 registered members. Through Lucy, you have an opportunity to enable 100 or so of your active members, throughout the Country, with the consent of employers, to experience the Transport industry ‘from the coalface’, and report back to a ‘steering group’.

Would you be willing to propose such an enterprise on behalf of your Party?

[jonah_1]

That was probably the longest conversation with an MP most of us have ever had.

Looks like it’s over now tho’

[Lucy]

I think he was just a party activist, not an MP.