Training question

[andy_rich]

The company I currently drive a van for have kindly put me on the insurance to drive the lorries as a learner to start me on my way to getting my class 2 which I will take in the 1st week of september
The question I have been asked by the regular driver of the lorry who will be taking me out is, how will it affect his driving hours? Does the time he spends in the lorry ‘supervising’ me count as driving time for him as far as VOSA are concerned or is it simply classed as other work?
It’s an issue for us as we double-man accross the country so it won’t just be a couple of hours round town but more like a full day’s driving for both him and myself.
Thanks in advance,
Andrew

[lee_g]

it should be classed as other work i think.

the first 45 mins when double manned (normally) can be counted as a break but if he is instructing you then surely he is working so im guessing it will all be other work!

[andy_rich]

That’s what I was thinking but I can’t seem to find a concrete answer anywhere
It’s just incase we get a tug by VOSA really

[lee_g]

you could just drop an email to the local vosa people for clarifycation, then if you do get a tug and they want to argue the toss with you, you have a copy of the email and you were just following advice from thier colleagues

[andy_rich]

Great idea, cheers for that. Just dropped them an email to see what the score is, hopefully they’ll reply sharpish so I can get out on the road

[rog]

This is an interesting one
If supervising then I would say deffo ‘other work’ which could then be a problem as no break can be booked whilst not driving as is normal with double manning.
As the ‘learner’ is not a full licence holder I am not sure if double manning rules can apply.

I might look into this myself tomorrow out of curiousity…

Are you going to take the test in the works truck or are you going to a training school as well and doing the test in their truck

[delboytwo]

Hi mate

Its other work cos the driver who is teaching you is in fact working giving you a driving lesson,when i worked nights all the drivers where put thought there class two by the firm and any one that sat with them had to be on work cos the boss ask vosa also the one it the cab supervising you as to have had is class two licence for 3 years and be over 21

just to add you are also required to use a tacho as a leaner and if its a analogue you can use the mode switch to put it on other work on the second driver

[tachograph]

Given the seriousness of a possible misunderstanding I think VOSA would be the best people to verify the answer to this, but I agree with the others that whilst supervising you the other driver would be on “other work”.

I’m not aware of any reason why double manning rules shouldn’t apply as there will for all intent and purpose be two drivers, you will need to watch the breaks though as obviously he can’t legally be on break whilst supervising you.

By the way congratulations on what seems like a very advantageous offer from your employer

[andy_rich]

I’ll be using the training agency’s truck for the test although my company did offer me the use of theirs but I’m not sure that the examiner would take kindly to the pelmets etc that are in the works lorry!!

I’ve got a tacho card so as soon as I get a written reply from VOSA I should be away.

It does seem like I’ve fallen on my feet for once, I was on agency work for a year before this so it just goes to show that if you’re patient a job will come of it eventually

[rog]

Andy Rich:
I’ll be using the training agency’s truck for the test

Do I assume rightly that you will be doing so much with the company truck and then going for a few days with a training school prior to test

Which training school will you be going with
Did you or the company choose it

[andy_rich]

ROG:
Do I assume rightly that you will be doing so much with the company truck and then going for a few days with a training school prior to test

Which training school will you be going with
Did you or the company choose it

Yes, Rog I’ll be doing a bit as and when possible in the company truck then going with the training school who will put me through the test. I’ve driven various types of rigids/artics since the age of about 15 so hopefully I won’t find the change in vehicles too hard.

I’ll be going with Crosshands Training School as it’s local and I know a few people who have done training there before and recommended it to me. Although, if the people answering the phones are anything to go by, I’m not too hopeful so far:? But we’ll see!

As an aside, I spoke to a very helpful chap at VOSA today who informed me that another driver can supervise me and it just counts as ‘other work’ as per normal when double-manning. He also informed me that the other driver can also take his break whilst I am driving as he is not actually ‘working’ per se. The VOSA examiner also highlighted the relevant sections of the document and faxed it through to me incase there are any discrepancies at roadside checks

[lee_g]

Andy Rich:
As an aside, I spoke to a very helpful chap at VOSA today who informed me that another driver can supervise me and it just counts as ‘other work’ as per normal when double-manning. He also informed me that the other driver can also take his break whilst I am driving as he is not actually ‘working’ per se. The VOSA examiner also highlighted the relevant sections of the document and faxed it through to me incase there are any discrepancies at roadside checks

Nice one, they are quite helpful really!

best of luck with it all mate

[rog]

Andy Rich:
As an aside, I spoke to a very helpful chap at VOSA today who informed me that another driver can supervise me and it just counts as ‘other work’ as per normal when double-manning. He also informed me that the other driver can also take his break whilst I am driving as he is not actually ‘working’ per se. The VOSA examiner also highlighted the relevant sections of the document and faxed it through to me incase there are any discrepancies at roadside checks

I posed the same question to an EXPERT VOSA person -
I do have permission from geebee45 to post this
Mine in black - expert answers in blue

geebee45:
The truck is over 7.5 tonnes with the insurance and the supervising driver all legal.
The learner has a C provisional licence.

It is a company truck delivering commercial goods and not a training school or
empty vehicle. Not a problem

When the learner is driving, the other is supervising, so what gets recorded on a digital tacho or an analogue chart for the supervising driver? The digital tacho can ‘only’ record ‘availability’ to the card in slot 2 whilst the vehicle is in motion. In my view the supervising driver needs to be recording ‘work,’ and his period on the passenger seat couldn’t be viewed as ‘break,’ as effectively he’s in charge of the provisional licence holder. He could leave the card out and then make a manual record of activity when they swap back or put the card in and take a printout and write the correct activities against times shown on the printout. Neither option is ideal and some of my colleagues may take a dim view of the 2nd driver leaving the card out.

Modular analogue charts will work the same as digital, here I would leave the chart in and make a manual record later on the reverse of the chart. The 1318 / 028 & 2300 tachos you can set the switch on the tacho to record; availability, work or rest to the second man chart, whether the vehicle is moving or not.

Is double manning allowed with a learner driver? Yes

Are there any other pitfalls that I have not mentioned for this scenario? Cannot see how the supervising driver could claim that his time in the passenger seat is anything other than work, therefore he cannot take a ‘break’ whilst the vehicle is moving. It could be argued that the provisional licence holder is in a similar position, after all isn’t he there to gain knowledge from the supervisor? This means that the vehicle will have to be stationary whilst they take breaks, particularly for the supervisor. There is also an issue regarding RT(WT)R regarding the six hour limit.

[warren_t_claim]

Are you allowed to learn in a laden vehicle? Top marks for your employer though!!!

[tachograph]

Andy Rich:
As an aside, I spoke to a very helpful chap at VOSA today who informed me that another driver can supervise me and it just counts as ‘other work’ as per normal when double-manning. He also informed me that the other driver can also take his break whilst I am driving as he is not actually ‘working’ per se. The VOSA examiner also highlighted the relevant sections of the document and faxed it through to me incase there are any discrepancies at roadside checks

As it happens geebee45 has answered this now and if I were you I would advise the other driver to adhere to the reply he’s given and quoted by ROG

The regulations are clear that a “break” is time that is used exclusively for recuperation which I would have thought rules out supervising a provisional license holder.

I’m surprised that the provisional license holder couldn’t take a break in the passenger seat though.

‘break’ means any period during which a driver may not
carry out any driving or any other work and which is
used exclusively for recuperation;

Clearly whilst supervising a provisional license holder he would be at the disposal of the employer and carrying out his duties

“working time” means the time from the beginning to the end of work during which the
mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of his employer and exercising his
functions or activities, being
(a) time devoted to all road transport activities, including, in particular–
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
3
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers
or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport
operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading and dealing
with administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers and
others;

Warren T. Claim:
Are you allowed to learn in a laden vehicle?

You can learn in a laden vehicle but you will be in-scope of the EU regulations and so would need to use the tachograph, unless you’re doing a job that’s exempt in which case you would come under domestic rules.

[andy_rich]

Thanks guys, isn’t it interesting(read worrying) how so much of the law comes down to interpretation? One person tells you one thing and the next tells you something different, both people coming from the same government agency

Luckily I’ve kept the fax marked for my attention by the VOSA expert and also his name, phone number and when I spoke to him just to cover my ■■■ incase we come to any grief at a roadside check/incident

If you see a white, Welsh 7.5t Iveco curtainsider out on L plates on monday, best keep well away