i was setting up an account with ryder hire the other day & they wanted a copy of our ‘o’ licence.it says on it we can 25 vehicles & 10 trailers.it’s the first time i have seen our licecnce so didn’t know what was on it.
when i counted up what we have on site we are over the amount of trailers specified on it by 4.
we have 15 vehicles & 11x40ft curtainsiders & a ro ro trailer for the waste side of the business.we also have 2x40ft curtainsiders on hire & i have just ordered another 40ft curtainsider to be delivered at the end of the week.
i’m struggling to find any clarification as to what to do in regard to adding trailers to the licence.i can see what it says about vehicles but not trailers.
ideally i think we would need to have 20 trailers on the licene so we have a good margin for expension as we have the vehicles already on it.
do we need to reapply for a new o licence as if it’s a major change by adding all these trailers or can they be added online without any issses,are we breaking the law by having all these extra trailers by not having them on our licence.
would be grateful for some advice on the problem.
As far as I can see, adding vehicles to the licence over and above the authorised maximum is a major variation.
Business link:
Adding further vehicles above the authorised maximum listed on your goods vehicle operator’s licence
If the extra vehicles you want to use will result in you exceeding the maximum number of vehicles authorised on your licence, this would be considered a major variation to your licence. If you intend to keep more vehicles at an operating centre than your licence allows, you will also need to submit an application for a major variation.
If you have a read of this, you can see that increasing the number of trailers is treated the same
as increasing the number of powered vehicles.
I would recommend that you simply contact your traffic area , explain what you want to do, glossing over what you are already doing, of course and if they are
anything like mine, they will lead you through exactly how to go about it.
As I understand it, if I only operated trailers, and had no powered vehicles, then I wouldn’t need an O Licence. So would it not be possible for the excess trailers to be owned by an individual or entity other than the O Licence holder?
ncooper:
As far as I can see, adding vehicles to the licence over and above the authorised maximum is a major variation.
Business link:
Adding further vehicles above the authorised maximum listed on your goods vehicle operator’s licence
If the extra vehicles you want to use will result in you exceeding the maximum number of vehicles authorised on your licence, this would be considered a major variation to your licence. If you intend to keep more vehicles at an operating centre than your licence allows, you will also need to submit an application for a major variation.
If you have a read of this, you can see that increasing the number of trailers is treated the same
as increasing the number of powered vehicles.
I would recommend that you simply contact your traffic area , explain what you want to do, glossing over what you are already doing, of course and if they are
anything like mine, they will lead you through exactly how to go about it.
Regards,
Nick
just what i needed,thanks nick
we have 25 vehicles on our licence & i feel that is far to many as there isn’t room to park that many vehicles & we will never have that many anyway,we will be full up now with 14 c/sider trailers & the 9 artics we have,so i might reduce the vehicles down to 20,that is more than enough for our margin & 20 trailers will cover us for everything then…
Harry Monk:
As I understand it, if I only operated trailers, and had no powered vehicles, then I wouldn’t need an O Licence. So would it not be possible for the excess trailers to be owned by an individual or entity other than the O Licence holder?
This Leads back to one of my earlier posts regarding whether it is even a necessity to have a trailer on your o licence at all if you dont own any but purely pull hired trailers which are maintained and inspected by the hire company but i was led to believe by others on here that it was a requirement that if you pull a trailer you have to have it on your o licence but on speaking to friend working for vosa advised me that you dont as a lot of companies who simply do traction for other companies dont have trailers specified on there o licences
simon
I wouldn’t bother doing anything, “They” aren’t going to come in to your yard and count all the trailers there at the weekend when they’re all on site. If you stick your head above the parapet “They” might come and “See” you. I’d only change the numbers if there was a sizeable discrepancy.
turnbull2012:
This Leads back to one of my earlier posts regarding whether it is even a necessity to have a trailer on your o licence at all if you dont own any but purely pull hired trailers which are maintained and inspected by the hire company but i was led to believe by others on here that it was a requirement that if you pull a trailer you have to have it on your o licence but on speaking to friend working for vosa advised me that you dont as a lot of companies who simply do traction for other companies dont have trailers specified on there o licences
simon
If you had 6 trailers on your op licence, then vosa would expect to see maintenance and inspection records for those trailers, but you wouldn’t inspect a ferry company trailers.
I think the question is there like the type of vehicle to be operated, tipper, tanker, fridge, box etc.
This subject was touched upon in 2004 and was equally confusing. However our tame enforcer Graham posted a couple of comments and basically if you are operating a unit, you need a trailer on the licence!
geebee45:
Hopefully the following will clear this up, I apologise for the length of the post but as you read it you’ll realsie that this is not an easy subject I’ve added the references for those that want to go and check them, by the way all the sections can be found in; ‘The Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995’ the comments in are mine, you won’t find them in the legislation. A translation of all this lot appears at the bottom of the post;
Secn2(1) requires that no person shall use a goods vehicle on a road for the carriage of goods for;
a) hire and reward
b) in connection with any trade or business carried on by him. [the legislation says’him’ but I reckon that we can safely include; ‘her’ and ‘them’ in the same term]
Secn5(1) defines vehicles authorised to be used on an operating licence as;
a) any motor vehicle in the lawful possession [owned, hired, hire purchase, leased etc] whether specified on the licence or not.
b) any trailer in the lawful possession of the licence holder.
Secn5(6) a motor vehicle which is not specified in an operators licence is not authorised to be used after a period of one [calendar] month begining with;
a) the day in which the vehicle was first in the lawful possession of the licence holder
b) if later, the day on which the licence came into force
Unless the Traffic Commissioner has been notified and the prescribed fee paid. [this is where the one month ‘grace’ period comes in. Provided you have the ‘margin’ you can hire in a vehicle to cover a short period without informing the TC eg; you’re usual vehicle if off the road for a couple of days for MOT prep]
Secn6(1)(a) an operators licence shall specify a maximum number of vehicles.
Secn6(2) an operators licence which does not include a provision under Secn5(2)(b)[no trailers authorised] may specify a maximum number of trailers(Secn6(2)(a))
Secn6(3) indicates that the maximum number of vehicles used on a licence whilst not specified cannot exceed the number of vehicles in Secn6(1)(a) minus the number of vehicles specified. [this is where the ‘margin’ comes in, the licence authorises 6 for example, you have three vehicles specified, therefore you can hire, beg, borrow three more vehicles for upto one calendar month. However, hire a fouth vehicle and you commit an offence as you now have 7 vehicles in your possession]
Secn6(5) indicates that the maximum number of trailers operated may not exceed the number authorised in Secn6(2)(a)
Secn6(8] makes it an offence to exceed the authorised vehicles / trailer numbers. Level 4 fine [ £ 2500].
So, the translation into language we can understand is; To operates a goods vehicle you need a licence. The licence has to authorise vehicles and if you use them trailers. It doesn’t matter who owns the trailer, if you’re pulling it then you’re using it. With traction you are pulling the trailer in connection with your business, you’re getting paid to do it, therefore you licence requires trailers to be authorised. You can have a licence authorising vehicles only but you can only use rigids or trailers with unladen weights below 1025kg. You cannot exceed the maximum number of vehicles/trailers authorised by your licence. If you only have an authorisation for one vehicle you cannot hire in another if your vehicle breaksdown or is involved in an accident. A trailer hire company would not have to have an O-licence as they are not using the trailer to carry goods in connection with their trade or business. However, they would require an O-licence if they had a tractor unit to deliver the empty trailer to their customers premises. This was confirmed by Booth v DPP (1996) when an empty semi-trailer was defined as goods as it superimposes a load on the drawing vehicle.
Finally (huge sigh of relief) there is a report in the Jan 2004 edition of Trucking which covers a Public Inquiry before the West Midlands TC. Basically it shows that traction operators need trailer licences.
geebee45:
b) in connection with any trade or business carried on by him. [the legislation says’him’ but I reckon that we can safely include; ‘her’ and ‘them’ in the same term]
A tangential point, really, but you can indeed include ‘her’ and ‘them’. Under section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978, singular includes plural and male includes female in all legislation unless explictly stated otherwise.
Silver_Surfer:
I wouldn’t bother doing anything, “They” aren’t going to come in to your yard and count all the trailers there at the weekend when they’re all on site. If you stick your head above the parapet “They” might come and “See” you. I’d only change the numbers if there was a sizeable discrepancy.
not the way i want to go really…i am aiming to be the transport manager in 6/12 months so it wouldn’t my ‘Of Good Repute’ any good to start doing things like that.
i think 5 trailers or being 50% over our O licence specification is quite a sizeable discrepancy & by reading the post above could land our company with a £2500 fine.
When you initially apply for your o licence you don’t need any financial standing for trailers, only room in your yard, and if you have room I don’t see why you wouldn’t apply for them, maybe even a few if you can.
It is a major change to your licence and will require a new advert in a local paper to add more trailers now.
I’ve added the references for those that want to go and check them, by the way all the sections can be found in; ‘The Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995’ the comments in are mine, you won’t find them in the legislation. A translation of all this lot appears at the bottom of the post;