Acorn:
What happened when you asked your employer how to get the cards downloaded?
Still waiting for an answer on that one
Logically if it’s on trade plates it’s not yet on any O licence nor can be referenced same.The driver is under domestic regs just like car trade plate or even non trade plate delivery/collection work.
There’s seemingly numerous,varied types of operations under dom regs.A job moving medical clinics for one that slipped through my fingers…(company i was ‘courting’ bought out and new regime not willing to let me commute ONCE a week to their Upper Heyford depot from pompy) and there’s a private snow-gritting job i’m toying with having a stab at before hopefully entering the trade plate domain asap.The plating game wouldn’t be viable it seems if governed by tacho laws.? Eveything l guess would have to be on low loaders ?
I did some of that clinic work on agency. Go in, drive to a place, set it up for nurses then sit there for 10 hours before packing up and going home. Easy but boring
Acorn:
Agree they may not come under operator licence, but that does make a tacho exemption. Of the TP and the OP circs, about the only one that would be outside tacho would be pre-plated new vehicles, not sure where the tacho exemption for a veh presumably over 7.5t I’ve would apply to the others. And of vourse TP only apply to an untaxed veh, so shuffling a taxed veh fir hire companies would not normally ve a SORN so not be a TP journey.
Is that a typo? Shouldn`t that be “does not make an exemption”?
Thank you, yes, it should read that exe,pt from one does nt always make it exempt from the other. Driving with correctly used TPs is always exempt O licence, but driving on TP is not always an exemption from HGV licence.
corij:
used to see trade plates covering up the original plate in a rubber hanger i now mostly only see them set low in the windscreen
There’s no real practical way of anchoring them over the top of fitted number plates or in the location of unfitted number plates.
We’re lucky in that generally on JLR types the dash board design holds the front one clearly in the lower nearside windscreen and the rear is held by the rubber bands attached to the plate holder being attached to the rear load anchorages or the tailgate lock and through the closed tailgate aperture and thereby hanging directly below the rear number plate position.
Truck cabs and truck chassis provide more options for anchoring them both outside.But it that case it helps if both plates are held in the proper holders with the rubber bands although I can also remember using welding wire to tie the holders to the front and rear of fire trucks and chassis for factory movements and road testing.Never lost one.
Acorn:
Agree they may not come under operator licence, but that does make a tacho exemption. Of the TP and the OP circs, about the only one that would be outside tacho would be pre-plated new vehicles, not sure where the tacho exemption for a veh presumably over 7.5t I’ve would apply to the others. And of vourse TP only apply to an untaxed veh, so shuffling a taxed veh fir hire companies would not normally ve a SORN so not be a TP journey.
Is that a typo? Shouldn`t that be “does not make an exemption”?
Thank you, yes, it should read that exe,pt from one does nt always make it exempt from the other. Driving with correctly used TPs is always exempt O licence, but driving on TP is not always an exemption from HGV licence.
But a tachograph record isn’t always required for over 3.5t.
But everyone who drives anything, including cars, for commercial purposes, is required to adhere to drivers hours regs of whatever type and however recorded.In general if the job doesn’t need a tacho adhering to domestic hours regs is the seeming
default option regardless of vehicle type although don’t think driving cars actually requires a truck type log book for record keeping but would use one if over 3.5t.
Franglais:
Exemptions include:
“and new or rebuilt vehicles which have not yet been put into service” gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … erogations#exemptions-and-derogations
Tommy Trade Plates:
moving to and from rental companies, dealerships, repair facilities, bodybuilders, auction yards etc.
If any of those vehicles have already been in service, (I bet the ones going between different branches of rental outlets, and going to auction have) then maybe they are not exempt.
As far as tacho goes, this is the correct answer (IMHO). There’s only very few tacho exemptions which are able to be used, this is the main one (there might be others but I doubt it). Also regarding the trade plate itself, it only covers unregistered/untaxed movement, so on a lot of the vehicles you don’t even need it (because it has tax - for example lease returns are typically taxed). A lot of the lads put them on anyway, especially if no insurance was showing on MID, so that it saves being stopped then showing you have insurance.
And yes, with your being a “driver”, the driving of cars, travelling to-from on public transport, getting lifts should be counted as “other work” on the WTD (even though the tight [zb] don’t pay that). But with the nature of the work, being in ~10 vehicles/week, its a very complex web to unravel if someone did take an interest in the hours. About half of the drivers kept a manual log of their hours, most of which was a bit…“Enid Blyton”…let’s say.
Just for the record I definitely book and get paid for travelling to/from collections/deliveries on public transport usually by train and often taxis for remote locations .
There are few jobs anywhere in the country that can’t be completed within 12 let alone 15 hours total.Unlike truck driving usually followed and preceded by a day/s off.
The idea of anyone subjected to potentially maxing out EU truck driving regs, while dissing trade plate work on the basis of hours, is a laughable oxymoron.
Franglais:
Exemptions include:
“and new or rebuilt vehicles which have not yet been put into service” gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … erogations#exemptions-and-derogations
Tommy Trade Plates:
moving to and from rental companies, dealerships, repair facilities, bodybuilders, auction yards etc.
If any of those vehicles have already been in service, (I bet the ones going between different branches of rental outlets, and going to auction have) then maybe they are not exempt.
As far as tacho goes, this is the correct answer (IMHO). There’s only very few tacho exemptions which are able to be used, this is the main one (there might be others but I doubt it). Also regarding the trade plate itself, it only covers unregistered/untaxed movement, so on a lot of the vehicles you don’t even need it (because it has tax - for example lease returns are typically taxed). A lot of the lads put them on anyway, especially if no insurance was showing on MID, so that it saves being stopped then showing you have insurance.
And yes, with your being a “driver”, the driving of cars, travelling to-from on public transport, getting lifts should be counted as “other work” on the WTD (even though the tight [zb] don’t pay that). But with the nature of the work, being in ~10 vehicles/week, its a very complex web to unravel if someone did take an interest in the hours. About half of the drivers kept a manual log of their hours, most of which was a bit…“Enid Blyton”…let’s say.
Just for the record I definitely book and get paid for travelling to/from collections/deliveries on public transport usually by train and often taxis for remote locations .
There are few jobs anywhere in the country that can’t be completed within 12 let alone 15 hours total.Unlike truck driving usually followed and preceded by a day/s off.
The idea of anyone subjected to potentially maxing out EU truck driving regs, while dissing trade plate work on the basis of hours, is a laughable oxymoron.
Deffo a case for regulation with what we did as a routine before hitching was ‘outlawed’
my last few days on the plates-
London-Elgin (deliver street/airport sweeper truck)
Hitch down to Peterhead-collect petrol tanker for Newcastle.
Hitch A66 to Penrith m6 (truck went north)
Hitch (1 hour wait from junction) to Forton MSA (For a Liverpool collection)
Hitch (■■■■ lucky one) Forton to Liverpool in lead car of volvo hearses on plates from Immingham.
Merc Maybach car home to Manchester cancelled (customs issue,home on train)
End of plating as a career.The hiking wrecked me.Enjoyable but unsustainable on the health front long-term.
Acorn:
But a tachograph record isn’t always required for over 3.5t.
But everyone who drives anything, including cars, for commercial purposes, is required to adhere to drivers hours regs of whatever type and however recorded.In general if the job doesn’t need a tacho adhering to domestic hours regs is the seeming
default option regardless of vehicle type although don’t think driving cars actually requires a truck type log book for record keeping but would use one if over 3.5t.
Agree that tacho is not always required - there are a few exemptions.
However where do you find the legal limit on cars, unless it’s within other work in an EU/ Domestic rules day?
Acorn:
However where do you find the legal limit on cars, unless it’s within other work in an EU/ Domestic rules day?
The way my employers at least interpret it domestic regs for a passenger carrying vehicle under 8 seats apply for driving a car for commercial purposes.
The difference in the case of goods vehicles over 3.5t would be the requirement for use of a proper log book.
Bearing in mind my wage timesheet contains all information regarding hours worked and break time.
Also there are specific parts of the Health and Safety at Work Act regarding driving anything for work purposes including breaks and driving times.
manalishi:
Deffo a case for regulation with what we did as a routine before hitching was ‘outlawed’
my last few days on the plates-
London-Elgin (deliver street/airport sweeper truck)
Hitch down to Peterhead-collect petrol tanker for Newcastle.
Hitch A66 to Penrith m6 (truck went north)
Hitch (1 hour wait from junction) to Forton MSA (For a Liverpool collection)
Hitch (■■■■ lucky one) Forton to Liverpool in lead car of volvo hearses on plates from Immingham.
Merc Maybach car home to Manchester cancelled (customs issue,home on train)
End of plating as a career.The hiking wrecked me.Enjoyable but unsustainable on the health front long-term.
There is no ‘case’ because in the real world the job just ain’t, nor can afford to be, done in such an inefficient driver unfriendly way.
London - Scotland or Scottish borders will deffo mean a night out at a pre booked and paid hotel.Any dead mileage required will be done by train/bus/taxi time and fares all paid for.
The most awkward jobs I get are to/from remote farm type locations involving a big taxi fare but more often non trade plate jobs in which the customers generally are happy to collect or drop me at the nearest station or bus stop.Having said that I’ve had some good long walks in that regard when the customer can’t help and taxis are booked out.No big deal.
manalishi:
Deffo a case for regulation with what we did as a routine before hitching was ‘outlawed’
my last few days on the plates-
London-Elgin (deliver street/airport sweeper truck)
Hitch down to Peterhead-collect petrol tanker for Newcastle.
Hitch A66 to Penrith m6 (truck went north)
Hitch (1 hour wait from junction) to Forton MSA (For a Liverpool collection)
Hitch (■■■■ lucky one) Forton to Liverpool in lead car of volvo hearses on plates from Immingham.
Merc Maybach car home to Manchester cancelled (customs issue,home on train)
End of plating as a career.The hiking wrecked me.Enjoyable but unsustainable on the health front long-term.
There is no ‘case’ because in the real world the job just ain’t, nor can afford to be, done in such an inefficient driver unfriendly way.
London - Scotland or Scottish borders will deffo mean a night out at a pre booked and paid hotel.Any dead mileage required will be done by train/bus/taxi time and fares all paid for.
The most awkward jobs I get are to/from remote farm type locations involving a big taxi fare but more often non trade plate jobs in which the customers generally are happy to collect or drop me at the nearest station or bus stop.Having said that I’ve had some good long walks in that regard when the customer can’t help and taxis are booked out.No big deal.
Ah another painful memory drops.Stuck in a snow storm in ■■■■■■■■■ national park heading across fields to a remote farm for a vehicle that got cancelled.Darkness descends and i’m thumbing unsucessfully for a lift for 2 or so hours in the worsening conditions,mid wilderness.Can’t remember much thereafter but those situations are probably no longer a feature in the main ? Not even allowed to roost in truck cabs these days with the firm i’m entertaining.
Franglais:
Exemptions include:
“and new or rebuilt vehicles which have not yet been put into service” gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … erogations#exemptions-and-derogations
Tommy Trade Plates:
moving to and from rental companies, dealerships, repair facilities, bodybuilders, auction yards etc.
If any of those vehicles have already been in service, (I bet the ones going between different branches of rental outlets, and going to auction have) then maybe they are not exempt.
As far as tacho goes, this is the correct answer (IMHO). There’s only very few tacho exemptions which are able to be used, this is the main one (there might be others but I doubt it). Also regarding the trade plate itself, it only covers unregistered/untaxed movement, so on a lot of the vehicles you don’t even need it (because it has tax - for example lease returns are typically taxed). A lot of the lads put them on anyway, especially if no insurance was showing on MID, so that it saves being stopped then showing you have insurance.
And yes, with your being a “driver”, the driving of cars, travelling to-from on public transport, getting lifts should be counted as “other work” on the WTD (even though the tight [zb] don’t pay that). But with the nature of the work, being in ~10 vehicles/week, its a very complex web to unravel if someone did take an interest in the hours. About half of the drivers kept a manual log of their hours, most of which was a bit…“Enid Blyton”…let’s say.
Just for the record I definitely book and get paid for travelling to/from collections/deliveries on public transport usually by train and often taxis for remote locations .
There are few jobs anywhere in the country that can’t be completed within 12 let alone 15 hours total.Unlike truck driving usually followed and preceded by a day/s off.
The idea of anyone subjected to potentially maxing out EU truck driving regs, while dissing trade plate work on the basis of hours, is a laughable oxymoron.
Just for the record I know (and used to work for, albeit the car side) the company “Tommy Trade Plates” (the OP) works for, they don’t pay a “wage” for the travel between jobs, just an allowance (based on bus fares) for the distance between. All the drivers are self-employed. Basically, your destiny is in the hands of the planners. They recruit drivers constantly and have got it down to a fine art, where the driver takes all the risk (eg traffic, late buses, etc) and the company pays only for its guaranteed delivery - its based on a mileage rate.
Its quite possible your trade plate work is for a different firm, with a completely different pay structure where you ARE paid for the time to travel between jobs.
I agree about the low likelihood of exceeding WTD hours total, but if you looked at the black & white, things like breaks etc might not be in the right places. the way the work was flowing, its unlikely you’d actually get a 48 hour working week though.
Carryfast:
Just for the record I definitely book and get paid for travelling to/from collections/deliveries on public transport usually by train and often taxis for remote locations .
There are few jobs anywhere in the country that can’t be completed within 12 let alone 15 hours total.Unlike truck driving usually followed and preceded by a day/s off.
The idea of anyone subjected to potentially maxing out EU truck driving regs, while dissing trade plate work on the basis of hours, is a laughable oxymoron.
Just for the record I know (and used to work for, albeit the car side) the company “Tommy Trade Plates” (the OP) works for, they don’t pay a “wage” for the travel between jobs, just an allowance (based on bus fares) for the distance between. All the drivers are self-employed. Basically, your destiny is in the hands of the planners. They recruit drivers constantly and have got it down to a fine art, where the driver takes all the risk (eg traffic, late buses, etc) and the company pays only for its guaranteed delivery - its based on a mileage rate.
Its quite possible your trade plate work is for a different firm, with a completely different pay structure where you ARE paid for the time to travel between jobs.
I agree about the low likelihood of exceeding WTD hours total, but if you looked at the black & white, things like breaks etc might not be in the right places. the way the work was flowing, its unlikely you’d actually get a 48 hour working week though.
I work for an, unusually in my previous truck driving experience, excellent and then some agency doing car deliveries and collections all over the country to/from customers and sometimes dealership transfers to/from the numerous nationwide branches.It’s dedicated work for a large JLR dealership.Trust me even if Carlsberg did car delivery/collection work it still wouldn’t get close to this job.
The other few drivers I work with, or my managers, can’t believe that there are similar jobs that don’t pay for dead travel time to/from jobs.
Let alone the idea of parking up a car during a distance job to do locals on the way, among other crap like lease returns inspections, that I was told during, a luckily aborted, induction for a certain 3 letter outfit.
As for doing the job with trucks I really don’t see the point or any upside for the driver.
While a typical long distance day for me would be along the lines of a 4 hour outward drive 1 hour break and 4 hour drive back with a PEX.
If not a combination of driving and train journey in whichever direction rarely exceeding 10 hours total including break and a typical 3 day week sometimes 4.Usually driving cars valued £60k > often £100k >.
Acorn:
However where do you find the legal limit on cars, unless it’s within other work in an EU/ Domestic rules day?
The way my employers at least interpret it domestic regs for a passenger carrying vehicle under 8 seats apply for driving a car for commercial purposes.
The difference in the case of goods vehicles over 3.5t would be the requirement for use of a proper log book.
Bearing in mind my wage timesheet contains all information regarding hours worked and break time.
Also there are specific parts of the Health and Safety at Work Act regarding driving anything for work purposes including breaks and driving times.
As you know a “car” is not a passenger carrying vehicle for the purposes of domestic drivers hrs, and No of hrs driving a day can be exempt, but for many companies it’s easier to apply them as a minimum to keep things simple
Acorn:
However where do you find the legal limit on cars, unless it’s within other work in an EU/ Domestic rules day?
The way my employers at least interpret it domestic regs for a passenger carrying vehicle under 8 seats apply for driving a car for commercial purposes.
The difference in the case of goods vehicles over 3.5t would be the requirement for use of a proper log book.
Bearing in mind my wage timesheet contains all information regarding hours worked and break time.
Also there are specific parts of the Health and Safety at Work Act regarding driving anything for work purposes including breaks and driving times.
As you know a “car” is not a passenger carrying vehicle for the purposes of domestic drivers hrs, and No of hrs driving a day can be exempt, but for many companies it’s easier to apply them as a minimum to keep things simple
No they are specific limits for driving any vehicle including cars for work purposes along the lines of domestic regs.
Ironically as I said trade plate type work, at least on cars, can be and usually is, far easier on drivers than maxing out EU hours regs driving a truck for a living.
I’ve never known such an easy job or hours regime.My usual comment is and they pay me to tour the country driving 100k motors and sit on a train for 20-30 hours per week if not a lot less.
It’s the holy grail, of a job I really like to do, work life balance biased massively on the life side and maximum income within my income tax allowance threshold.
My guess is this will be a whole week off for me.We are usually busier at the end of every month.If not two or three days max…Loving it.
Carryfast:
Just for the record I definitely book and get paid for travelling to/from collections/deliveries on public transport usually by train and often taxis for remote locations .
There are few jobs anywhere in the country that can’t be completed within 12 let alone 15 hours total.Unlike truck driving usually followed and preceded by a day/s off.
The idea of anyone subjected to potentially maxing out EU truck driving regs, while dissing trade plate work on the basis of hours, is a laughable oxymoron.
Just for the record I know (and used to work for, albeit the car side) the company “Tommy Trade Plates” (the OP) works for, they don’t pay a “wage” for the travel between jobs, just an allowance (based on bus fares) for the distance between. All the drivers are self-employed. Basically, your destiny is in the hands of the planners. They recruit drivers constantly and have got it down to a fine art, where the driver takes all the risk (eg traffic, late buses, etc) and the company pays only for its guaranteed delivery - its based on a mileage rate.
Its quite possible your trade plate work is for a different firm, with a completely different pay structure where you ARE paid for the time to travel between jobs.
I agree about the low likelihood of exceeding WTD hours total, but if you looked at the black & white, things like breaks etc might not be in the right places. the way the work was flowing, its unlikely you’d actually get a 48 hour working week though.
I work for an, unusually in my previous truck driving experience, excellent and then some agency doing car deliveries and collections all over the country to/from customers and sometimes dealership transfers to/from the numerous nationwide branches.It’s dedicated work for a large JLR dealership.Trust me even if Carlsberg did car delivery/collection work it still wouldn’t get close to this job.
The other few drivers I work with, or my managers, can’t believe that there are similar jobs that don’t pay for dead travel time to/from jobs.
Let alone the idea of parking up a car during a distance job to do locals on the way, among other crap like lease returns inspections, that I was told during, a luckily aborted, induction for a certain 3 letter outfit.
As for doing the job with trucks I really don’t see the point or any upside for the driver.
While a typical long distance day for me would be along the lines of a 4 hour outward drive 1 hour break and 4 hour drive back with a PEX.
If not a combination of driving and train journey in whichever direction rarely exceeding 10 hours total including break and a typical 3 day week sometimes 4.Usually driving cars valued £60k > often £100k >.
Good for you man.Good to hear you’ve found a happy perch that works for you.Those jobs are hard to find but they still exist thankfully.I did similar to you with a firm in Fenny Compton (Arcade Automotive) yonks ago and moved some snazzy metal but the planner wasn’t up to the task …left us stranded all over the show come fridays but nice while it lasted.
Carryfast:
I work for an, unusually in my previous truck driving experience, excellent and then some agency doing car deliveries and collections all over the country to/from customers and sometimes dealership transfers to/from the numerous nationwide branches.It’s dedicated work for a large JLR dealership.Trust me even if Carlsberg did car delivery/collection work it still wouldn’t get close to this job.
The other few drivers I work with, or my managers, can’t believe that there are similar jobs that don’t pay for dead travel time to/from jobs.
Let alone the idea of parking up a car during a distance job to do locals on the way, among other crap like lease returns inspections, that I was told during, a luckily aborted, induction for a certain 3 letter outfit.
As for doing the job with trucks I really don’t see the point or any upside for the driver.
While a typical long distance day for me would be along the lines of a 4 hour outward drive 1 hour break and 4 hour drive back with a PEX.
If not a combination of driving and train journey in whichever direction rarely exceeding 10 hours total including break and a typical 3 day week sometimes 4.Usually driving cars valued £60k > often £100k >.
Good for you man.Good to hear you’ve found a happy perch that works for you.Those jobs are hard to find but they still exist thankfully.I did similar to you with a firm in Fenny Compton (Arcade Automotive) yonks ago and moved some snazzy metal but the planner wasn’t up to the task …left us stranded all over the show come fridays but nice while it lasted.
It probably helps that this job is exclusively to and from the base dealership.It doesn’t involve ‘tramping’ as such.The only challenging logistics are late departures regarding prepping or workshop type delays or customers that can only do a late collection/delivery.That usually means a phone call for a late start time and if it’s a public transport job some careful watching of last train times.Ive certainly had to cut it fine on the ridiculous last train running times into London on the Avanti and LNER services.I think it’s around 9pm out of Manchester for example.But would never be ‘stranded’ it would just mean booking a night out in that case hotel bill reimbursed.
Carryfast:
No they are specific limits for driving any vehicle including cars for work purposes along the lines of domestic regs.
There are no written legal limit on the hours for a car driver. It’s is not specified in the Highway Code. No the H&S acts .are we mixing best practise with legal requirement?
It may be an internal company view, but I’d be really interested where it says the limit and what that limit is.
If employed as an HGV driver (which is defined by the wording of the job description AND the type of vehicle driving, eg >3.5t) and you drive <3.5t vehicles for example Ford Transit, or a car, or whatever, that counts as “other work” and WTD rules still apply, eg 15 mins break after 6 hours etc, working week hours limit, daily/weekly rests, reference period.
If employed as a “driver” (and you drive <3.5t) OR any other job description which isn’t primarily driving (but in that job you drive >3.5t) the WTD doesn’t apply, neither do any limits on driving (<3.5t) or break requirements*
*In fact, legally, there’s more rules on sitting at a desk using a computer than driving a 3.5t van on the motorway.
This would mean, that if you are employed* as an “HGV Trade Plate Driver” then even if you drive HGVs once in a blue moon and the rest cars, you’d need to record the driving cars and travelling between as “other work” and keep to the WTD regulations etc. If you were employed as a “Trade Plate Driver” and drove 1 HGV in the job, after that point you’d de-facto be an “HGV Trade Plate Driver” and from that point on, need to record your hours as above etc.
*Even if you’re self employed…you would be employing yourself in that role.
and there’s a private snow-gritting job i’m toying with having a stab at before hopefully entering the trade plate domain asap.The plating game wouldn’t be viable it seems if governed by tacho laws.? Eveything l guess would have to be on low loaders ?
…left us stranded all over the show come fridays but nice while it lasted.