Towing over 3.5t

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OWNER AND FLEET OPERATORS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
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Hi, this is my first post. I am sorry if this has been done to death but I am struggling to find a definitive answer for our type company or the work we may do.

We are an engine company. We sell new and used engines. We also repair engines at our HQ and potentially anywhere in the EU. I am a service engineer, I am not a professional driver as my main job.

We have 2 Transit 350’s with tachos fitted (GVW 3500 kgs). One is empty in the back, one is my van and is racked out with all my tools etc. Basically a service van although classed as a light goods vehicle. I passed my driving test in 04/1996.

I understand that when I tow with this vehicle in the EU, I must drive using the tacho under the EU drivers hours - and I understand there are some exemptions such as if I am towing work equipment for use by myself, if I am within a 50 km radius of HQ and maybe some others.

I am unsure however, on whether we need an operators licence and driver CPC.

The trailer will weigh less than 1025 kgs but may carry up to 2000 kgs. It may not be our own trailer.

So here are some scenarios assuming this is outside of a 50km radius of HQ;

We sell an engine, I tow it to the customer - does this come under hire or reward?

We buy an engine, I go and pick it up to bring back to base - what does this come under?

A customer has an engine problem and he wants to pay for us to remove and repair it for him, then take it back and fit it - what does this come under?

A customer has an engine problem with an engine we have previously sold him, we collect, repair and take it back free of charge to him - what does this come under?

We have an exhibition trailer. I tow it to a show and bring it back again. I am paid a wage to do this. I am not sure of the show trailers weight or if it is plated. - what happens here?

I am pretty ok with if I have to carry tooling in a trailer - I think I only have to drive with a tacho?

So, saying we do have to have an operators licence, my next question is about the part where we have to have a storage area for the vehicles and trailers when not in use. As I said sometimes we have to hire a trailer, it is not our own.

Also, because this is primarily (to us) a service vehicle and not a goods vehicle, I use it to travel to and from my place of work. This could be anywhere in the EU or to HQ. This is without a trailer attached, therefore it does not then fall under any drivers hours or operators licensing. What happens when the vehicle is not at its designated storage address?

All of the above is a very rare situation for us with regards to towing.

I sincerely apologise if this has been done many times, but I am not getting any clear answer on this from VOSA and I am sure this forum has some very experienced people who know a lot about this, what I consider, grey area.

Please correct me, ask me, knock me down but if anything I hope there will be some answers for us.

Many Thanks

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No to dcpc, due to licence needed to drive the up to 3.5t vans, ie its not a c but a b class vehicle.

By my understanding of the regs & your description then no to an needing o licence also, its for your own goods, you are not a courier co/ haulage co/ removals firm etc.

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  • 1 ^^^
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gov.uk/government/uploads/s … owners.pdf
See flow chart on page 7 and change the word horse for engine

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You have B+E licence so that’s covered

In any fixed week (week) when you come under EU tacho regs all the other work in that week must be officially recorded and the easiest way is to use separate analogue cards or digi printout paper with a separate record for each day worked with your name date start and finish time for each day

After 29 calendar days those other work records can be binned

Have you got down load facilities for the digi cards and the vehicle tachos?

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We have only just got the new van with a digi tacho this week, we are yet to get drivers cards and a company card.

The other van has an analogue tacho.

With regards to other work recording, I am pretty much the only user of the new van. So when I get a driver card is it best to put the card in every working day to record this? And record other work during my normal working day? The only thing with that that I can see is it will record driving whether I am driving under drivers hours or not (i.e without a trailer). Also bear in mind that towing is an absolutely minute part of my job and is on and ‘if and when’ basis. Not that I mean that the rules don’t apply to us, but I mean with regards to recording my working week etc…I may not tow anything for months, maybe even a year but it has been known that in an emergency we may have to deliver or pick up something in a moments notice. I really appreciate your comments on this.

So with regard to ops licence, the goods that we buy for ourselves, supply to customers from our stock, repair and deliver, does not come under ‘for hire or reward’ as they are our own goods is this correct?

Even with the fact that we have sold them to a customer and it’s possible they may or may not pay us a carriage fee? The fact that I am getting paid a wage by my company is not hire or reward either?

I looked at the flow chart you suggested, and substituted ‘horses’ for ‘engines’. I may transport other peoples engines, as I stated in the first post. They may pay us to repair them and collect/return them.

I’m sorry if I’m missing something but it is not glaringly obvious to me!!

Thank you all for your time so far.

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Anyone have any further suggestions with this?

Thanks

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So you don’t unknowingly commit an offence on the digi just use it only when towing ,all other times just keep a diary with your daily activities in not too much detail just workshop or driving solo and rough times in total .

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I would use digi every time you drive but select - out of scope - for all the driving done without trailer

For all other records I would use separate analogue cards - one for each day worked - with your name date start and finish time on each - bin each one when it gets to 30 calendar days old or keep them if you wish to

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Depends how they look at it
As you would be getting psid to colkect or deliver the engine for repair
I doubt any company will go across uk let aline europe for free just to rebuild an engine

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Also if does get classed as hire and reward an
Op licence will be required

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It is not hire and reward and charging customers for delivery doesn’t alter that.

No o-licence is needed just do what Dan said with the diary if you want to stay as legit as anyone else in the country operating a similar setup

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ROG:
I would use digi every time you drive but select - out of scope - for all the driving done without trailer

For all other records I would use separate analogue cards - one for each day worked - with your name date start and finish time on each - bin each one when it gets to 30 calendar days old or keep them if you wish to

Why, When this is all DVSA require?

Subject
Re: Fw: Van and Trailer QuestionsLink

(v) Whether the vehicle is ‘O’ licence or not; the driver will need to comply with tachograph / drivers hours rules at all times when the trailer is attached. In addition they must comply with the required daily rest periods and weekly rest periods in any week when the trailer is used. They should also, in any week within which the trailer is used keep a full record (including times not just duration of work) of the drivers hours for ‘other work’ (outside of the scope of EU regs), which he should carry with him. This may be any form, eg: a diary, or worksheet. They may find the drivers hours guide (below) useful; also, the DVD has now been uploaded to YOU TUBE - I believe it is in two parts they need to be familiar with the EU hours section.

Regards

Rob

Robert Lees
Enforcement Policy Team
Tel: 0117 954 3484

And for EU work I would carry letter of Attestation.