Isn’t noseweight dependant on how the trailer is loaded ?
Put more weight at the rear of the trailer and that could take weight off the towing vehicle by giving a negative effect on noseweight … or have I got that wrong ?
ROG:
Isn’t noseweight dependant on how the trailer is loaded ?Put more weight at the rear of the trailer and that could take weight off the towing vehicle by giving a negative effect on noseweight … or have I got that wrong ?
Exactly.Which is all part of the calculations which need to be taken into account in the case of artic and close coupled ‘combinations’,as opposed to A frame drawbar outfits which are trains.
In the case of combinations the trailer load distribution affects the towing vehicle’s gross and axle weights.However a close coupled trailer of the caravan and other similar types need a noseweight for stability. 
Although for some reason VOSA then seems to remove that requirement in the case of LGV type close coupled trailers. 
But the relevant bit is that GTW is/should only apply in the case of A frame drawbar outfits in which case trailer load distribution has no effect whatsoever on the towing vehicle’s gross and axle weights.
In the real world it’s highly unlikely that you could often be able to load a close coupled combination with the load on the trailer distributed in a way which would allow the towing vehicle to be loaded to it’s GVW while allowing the outfit to run at it’s GTW at the same time.Which is why GTW shouldn’t apply in the case of such outfits being that they aren’t ‘trains’ at all they are ‘combinations’ which is why we had the two different gross weight measurements of GCW and GTW.The two being totally different in the way they apply.
Our 3.5tonners are 6.3t train weight we load the vehicle to 3250kg and put the other 250kg on the trailer so that when fully laden at 6.3t the nose weight doesnt over load the drive axle or vehicle.
Dan Punchard:
Our 3.5tonners are 6.3t train weight we load the vehicle to 3250kg and put the other 250kg on the trailer so that when fully laden at 6.3t the nose weight doesnt over load the drive axle or vehicle.
Which works so long as the nosweight of the trailer is removed from the GVW of the towing vehicle and/or the trailer weight distribution is always kept equal to provide neither a positive or negative noseweight.Which can create problems depending on unloading plans.Although that doesn’t explain why light close coupled type combinations are required by VOSA to run with a trailer noseweight to remain stable but that seems to not apply in the case of heavier types of similar designs of combinations up to 40 t +. 
Although having said that the rule usually applies that the difference between GCW and GTW means that the towing vehicle can’t often run at GVW when it’s part of a combination unlike when it’s part of a train.
Carryfast:
Dan Punchard:
Our 3.5tonners are 6.3t train weight we load the vehicle to 3250kg and put the other 250kg on the trailer so that when fully laden at 6.3t the nose weight doesnt over load the drive axle or vehicle.Which works so long as the trailer weight distribution is always kept equal to provide neither a positive or negative noseweight.Which can create problems depending on unloading plans.Although that doesn’t explain why light close coupled type combinations are required by VOSA to run with a trailer noseweight to remain stable but that seems to not apply in the case of heavier types of similar designs of combinations up to 40 t +.
Making a trailer balence is ok if you have an understanding loader,a nice text book load and you dont want to drive it like you stole it. I have a pm weigher on which shows each axle weight in kg and as % so i can see the nose weight .
My Tare weight is 5730kg (due to the HIAB mainly) so any reduction in plated weight would render the truck incapable of carrying a car (+cab occupants).
Sounds like a cheap tent or Travelodge might be the easiest answer right now!
Thanks for all your input good people.
Happy Christmas and drive safe
cheers
Gruff
Gruff:
My Tare weight is 5730kg (due to the HIAB mainly) so any reduction in plated weight would render the truck incapable of carrying a car (+cab occupants).Sounds like a cheap tent or Travelodge might be the easiest answer right now!
Thanks for all your input good people.
Happy Christmas and drive safe
cheers
Gruff
A caravan with a MAM of 750 kgs would be legal but are they big enough for your use?
freedomcaravans.com/freedom- … -i535.html - one idea
ROG:
Another legal example for a C1+E
Vehicle GVW 7.5 tonnes
GTW listed at 12 tonnes
Trailer MAM plated at 7.5 tonnesVehicle weighs 4.5 tonnes empty
Trailer weighs 2.5 tonnes empty
Total empty weight = 7 tonnesThat means 5 tonnes can be loaded between the two
That 5 tonnes can be spread out between the two as the driver sees fit providing neither the Vehicle GVW or the Trailer MAM are exceeded
Slightly off subject here then Rog.
My car has towing capacity of 2000kg (braked obviously), I sometimes pull a horse box that’s plated to 2600kg max, it’s designed to carry 2 17hand horses, but when I’m using it, I only carry 1 pony of approx 14 hands (about 400kg +/-) so the trailer weighs a lot less than the 2000kg limit for my car (approx 1600kg), but is plated over. Am I legal?
waynedl:
ROG:
Another legal example for a C1+E
Vehicle GVW 7.5 tonnes
GTW listed at 12 tonnes
Trailer MAM plated at 7.5 tonnesVehicle weighs 4.5 tonnes empty
Trailer weighs 2.5 tonnes empty
Total empty weight = 7 tonnesThat means 5 tonnes can be loaded between the two
That 5 tonnes can be spread out between the two as the driver sees fit providing neither the Vehicle GVW or the Trailer MAM are exceeded
Slightly off subject here then Rog.
My car has towing capacity of 2000kg (braked obviously), I sometimes pull a horse box that’s plated to 2600kg max, it’s designed to carry 2 17hand horses, but when I’m using it, I only carry 1 pony of approx 14 hands (about 400kg +/-) so the trailer weighs a lot less than the 2000kg limit for my car (approx 1600kg), but is plated over. Am I legal?
YOU ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL 
There is no law or rule which states that the trailer plated MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity of the vehicle
The manufacturers towing capacity has no legal standing in any weight laws but could be used in court if the set up is deemed unsafe
THIS may be of use and yes, the ROG is me
ROG:
Gruff:
My Tare weight is 5730kg (due to the HIAB mainly) so any reduction in plated weight would render the truck incapable of carrying a car (+cab occupants).Sounds like a cheap tent or Travelodge might be the easiest answer right now!
Thanks for all your input good people.
Happy Christmas and drive safe
cheers
GruffA caravan with a MAM of 750 kgs would be legal but are they big enough for your use?
freedomcaravans.com/freedom- … -i535.html - one idea
what about trailer a trailer tent? better than a normal tent and lighter and cheaper than a caravan.
The big disadvantage in towing a small trailer tent behind a large vehicle is that the driver might not be able to see the trailer especially if it starts to bounce about
ROG:
waynedl:
ROG:
Another legal example for a C1+E
Vehicle GVW 7.5 tonnes
GTW listed at 12 tonnes
Trailer MAM plated at 7.5 tonnesVehicle weighs 4.5 tonnes empty
Trailer weighs 2.5 tonnes empty
Total empty weight = 7 tonnesThat means 5 tonnes can be loaded between the two
That 5 tonnes can be spread out between the two as the driver sees fit providing neither the Vehicle GVW or the Trailer MAM are exceeded
Slightly off subject here then Rog.
My car has towing capacity of 2000kg (braked obviously), I sometimes pull a horse box that’s plated to 2600kg max, it’s designed to carry 2 17hand horses, but when I’m using it, I only carry 1 pony of approx 14 hands (about 400kg +/-) so the trailer weighs a lot less than the 2000kg limit for my car (approx 1600kg), but is plated over. Am I legal?
YOU ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL
There is no law or rule which states that the trailer plated MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity of the vehicle
The manufacturers towing capacity has no legal standing in any weight laws but could be used in court if the set up is deemed unsafe
THIS may be of use and yes, the ROG is me
Thanks for that Rog, it’s something I’ve wondered about, don’t use it enough to buy my own and have it re-plated, and the hired ones need maximum market.
EUREKA!!!. Smaller 'van / folding camper and put peeps in sleeper cab!
ROG:
Slightly off subject here then Rog.
My car has towing capacity of 2000kg (braked obviously), I sometimes pull a horse box that’s plated to 2600kg max, it’s designed to carry 2 17hand horses, but when I’m using it, I only carry 1 pony of approx 14 hands (about 400kg +/-) so the trailer weighs a lot less than the 2000kg limit for my car (approx 1600kg), but is plated over. Am I legal?
YOU ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL
There is no law or rule which states that the trailer plated MAM cannot be more than the towing capacity of the vehicle
The manufacturers towing capacity has no legal standing in any weight laws but could be used in court if the set up is deemed unsafe
THIS may be of use and yes, the ROG is me
Really! I disagree Rog.
This begs to differ. AFAIK Police & VOSA use the manufacturer’s towing limit stamped on the car’s VIN plate on the chassis and trailer plates as their guide. So while actual weight is less, it’s the plates that count. In the example above it’s 600Kg over, as soon as it is hitched up.
Colingl:
Really! I disagree Rog.This begs to differ. AFAIK Police & VOSA use the manufacturer’s towing limit stamped on the car’s VIN plate on the chassis and trailer plates as their guide. So while actual weight is less, it’s the plates that count. In the example above it’s 600Kg over, as soon as it is hitched up.
I’m with ROG on this one, that page you linked is misleading at best as it contradicts itself.
It states in the second paragraph that the trailer’s MAM should not exceed the car’s maximum towing weight, then further down says that the unladen weight of the trailer plus the weight of the hoses should not exceed the vehicle’s maximum towing capacity.
The law as it stand does, as ROG says, only take into account the actual mass of the trailer when working out if the combination is legal (as long as the actual mass isn’t over the MAM of course). If it was any other way then almost every 3500kg plated plant trailer out there would be being towed illegally as very few vehicles are plated to tow the full 3500kg.
This VOSA guide backs us up: dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/H … %20res.pdf
See page 18 which states:
VOSA:
For example, a towing vehicle with a plated gross weight of 3 tonnes and a plated train weight of 5 tonnes, could feasibly tow a trailer with a maximum gross weight of 3.5 tonnes. However, if both the vehicle and trailer in the combination were loaded to their respective maximum gross weights, then the combination’s maximum train weight would be exceeded by 1.5 tonnes. It’s the actual weight of the vehicle and load which is important in determining a vehicle’s compliance with legal weight thresholds, not the potential carrying capacity.
Paul
ROG:
The manufacturers towing capacity has no legal standing in any weight laws but could be used in court if the set up is deemed unsafe
Having just backed you up on most of the content of this post I have to pull you up on this part.
Are you honestly trying to tell us that you can legally tow a trailer that weighs over the manufacturers maximum towing weight? If so can you link us to something to back up this claim?
Paul
repton:
ROG:
The manufacturers towing capacity has no legal standing in any weight laws but could be used in court if the set up is deemed unsafeHaving just backed you up on most of the content of this post I have to pull you up on this part.
Are you honestly trying to tell us that you can legally tow a trailer that weighs over the manufacturers maximum towing weight? If so can you link us to something to back up this claim?
Paul
This is where it gets turned on its head … find me a law that states it is illegal to do so or any law relating to the manufacturers recommended towing capacity
If there is no law stating it cannot be done then it can be done
The manufacturers recommended towing capacity is based on a power to weight ratio on an uphill slope of X% - it is what they say their vehicle can cope with without struggling to do so
The plated weights on the vehicle (and any trailer) are the legal ones so they MUST be complied with
If a driver was to tow over what the manufacturer has deemed their vehicle can cope with and it ends up being involved in an incident then it could be deemed by a court that the driver was exceeding the capabilities of the vehicle if that was a proven factor in the incident
A car with a towing capacity of 1000, a GVW of 1500 and a GTW of 2500 could actually weigh 1100 and be towing an actual weight of 1400 which would be legal but if the car was all over the place whilst pulling that weight then legal safety issues would be brought into play
Also worth pointing out that regardless of the fact it’s for private use, you must use a tacho when towing a trailer with a 7.5tonner
clark_rally:
Also worth pointing out that regardless of the fact it’s for private use, you must use a tacho when towing a trailer with a 7.5tonner
Good point as the private non EU regs limit is 7.5 tonnes so any trailer is going to put it above that limit
clark_rally:
Also worth pointing out that regardless of the fact it’s for private use, you must use a tacho when towing a trailer with a 7.5tonner
Hmm. But my truck is tacho exempt. (doesnt have all the mod cons like electric windows, seat belts, a speed limiter, etc either!!)