Hi guys I just started with a new company which
Involves driving a 3.5 tonne van and towing various trailers. The
Van has a train weight of 6 tonne was asked to pick up a empty trailer which has
A plate on for 3.5 tonne I’m having a problem with the company there saying it’s ok
Because the trailer is empty I’m 100% sure im right as I have been driving and towing trailers for years and also have a CPC… I’m refusing to tow it… what Would you recommend??
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:
small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.
You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.
Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:
drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)
For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.
Licences held before 1 January 1997
If you passed your car test before 1 January 1997 you are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM.
This is the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.
You also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kg MAM.
Towing heavier combinations
If you want to tow heavier combinations, you’ll have to first apply for provisional entitlement to the new C1+E entitlement. You’ll then have to pass the category C theory test and C1+E practical test.
Once you’ve done this you can drive vehicles and trailers with a combined weight of up to 12 tonnes MAM.
Rich17045:
Hi guys I just started with a new company which
Involves driving a 3.5 tonne van and towing various trailers. The
Van has a train weight of 6 tonne was asked to pick up a empty trailer which has
A plate on for 3.5 tonne I’m having a problem with the company there saying it’s ok
Because the trailer is empty I’m 100% sure im right as I have been driving and towing trailers for years and also have a CPC… I’m refusing to tow it… Would you recommend
A visit to HR or VOSA??
The laws regarding towing are fairly simple if taken one at a time
Does the driver have the correct licence? - B+E for the set up you describe = yes then ok
Is the vehicle GVW over its max limit? = no then ok
Is the trailer over its max MAM limit? = no then ok
Is the ACTUAL weight of vehicle and trailer when weighted together over max GTW? = no then ok
Is the ACTUAL weight of the trailer when loaded over the recommended towing capacity? = no then ok
If some silly TM is trying to tell you that because the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM exceeds the GTW and is illegal then ask them this …
… as the same weight rules apply across the board then how come all the artic and drag trailers are not having to be replated so that different towing vehicles can use them■■?
what is the combined weight when the trailer is empty? Is it going to be empty all the time? Is the van empty? If both are empty you’ll prob be under 6t. I may be way wrong but I think you’ll be fine, run it passed a weigh bridge and ask them, they’ll not be long in telling you if you are ok or not 
limeyphil:
From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:
small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.
You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.
Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:
drive a vehicle up to 3.5 tonnes or 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as it is no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle (with a combined weight of up to 3,500kg in total)For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.
Licences held before 1 January 1997
If you passed your car test before 1 January 1997 you are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM.
This is the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.
You also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kg MAM.
Towing heavier combinations
If you want to tow heavier combinations, you’ll have to first apply for provisional entitlement to the new C1+E entitlement. You’ll then have to pass the category C theory test and C1+E practical test.
Once you’ve done this you can drive vehicles and trailers with a combined weight of up to 12 tonnes MAM.
they would (if not already got) have to get the class 2, then go for the c+e.
We’ve had lots of different 3.5 tonners all with different train weights ,but we’ve always had 3.5 tonne trailers as this make s it easy for the driver to load if he knows the total load weight there’s no point trying to get the van up to 3.5 as any nose weight will put the van over weight so I recommend loading the van on the light side and use the 3.5 tonne trailer to take rest,this way by having a 3.5 tonne trailer reduces the trailers risk of overloading the axles there’s no point having a trailer any less than 3.5 if the driver is licensed to drive it.we have 7 tonne train and 6300 both with 3.5 tonne trailers .
There is no law or rule which states that the total of the vehicle GVW added to the trailer plated MAM must not exceed the GTW
There is no law or rule which states the trailer plated MAM cannot exceed the vehicle towing capacity
If anyone says otherwise then ask them to provide the law which states it is illegal
It is impossible for you to provide a law that says it is legal - generally the legislators do not make laws which say you can do things
Using the info in the first post… and making up a bit
Transit
GVW 3500
GTW 6000
Towing capacity 2500 set by manufacturer
Trailer
MAM 3500
Unladen 1000 - I made that up
Load on trailer 1500 kgs
= 100% legal on a B+E
Another example under the same laws …
Rigid LGV
GVW 32000
GTW 44000
Drawbar trailer
MAM 18000
Total MAM weight is 50000 but with a C+E driver and the rigid loaded at 28000 and the drag loaded at 16000 = all 100% legal
Rog is right , it’s ok, get on with it.
Legally all that matters is the actual weight of the whole combination being below the GTW with no individual axle overloaded.
However, what is technically legal and reality are different. We hire out trailers and police issuing fixed penalties for the plated trailer weight + the GVW of the tow vehicle being over the GTW is fairly common. They seem to be particularly attracted to normal saloon and estate cars towing large trailers like car transporters.
My top tips for towing to avoid unnecessary hassle from the authorities. Would be if you’re doing anything vaguely commercial or using a business or motor trade insurance policy don’t any towing if not using a vehicle with a tachograph.
Ideally use a 4x4 that’s well known to have a maximum unbraked 3.5t tow capacity. If using a transit van or similar get the trailer plated to show GTW-GVW of the tow vehicle. ‘Lending’ payload from the van to the trailer isn’t great for handling either.
Own Account Driver:
However, what is technically legal and reality are different. We hire out trailers and police issuing fixed penalties for the plated trailer weight + the GVW of the tow vehicle being over the GTW is fairly common.
Under what LAW do they issue that ticket?
They must state what law has been broken to issue a charge …
I have heard this type of myth before where some were saying that the police were issuing tickets because the set up had the potential in the MAM weights to exceed the GTW or towing capacity and yet when challenged none of those could produce anything to back up what they said …
Wouldn’t be comfortable having a higher mass in the trailer - tail wagging the dog springs to mind.
What can be better than to have scope on axle weights ,down rating a trailer to match the towing vehicle train weight is daft ,no matter what the combination is capable of your not going to get a ticket unless you go over the gtw or don’t have the correct licence ,you don’t down rate artic trailers because the gross trailer weight added to the unit tare exceed 44 tonne do you !
Dan Punchard:
What can be better than to have scope on axle weights ,down rating a trailer to match the towing vehicle train weight is daft ,no matter what the combination is capable of your not going to get a ticket unless you go over the gtw or don’t have the correct licence ,you don’t down rate artic trailers because the gross trailer weight added to the unit tare exceed 44 tonne do you !
I entirely agree with this and it’s all well and good but we hire trailers out and, as I have said, repeatedly on here to Rog before. This is not any sort of urban myth many, many customers have been given fixed penalties from police who treat the weight of the trailer as the plated weight. Almost always it occurs with large dimension trailers and always being towed with Mondeo saloon or estate sized vehicles that look insufficiently large relative to the trailer. The police obviously don’t think it’s a huge road safety issue as they’ve never yet prohibited the trailer being driven back to us.
I don’t doubt it wouldn’t stand up in court but we are reluctant to let customers now take trailers plated, that it would take it over the GTW, as if/when they come back with a ticket they expect us to reimburse them.
I doubt your average copper has any idea what the plate on a tri-axle trailer says or the difference between it being pulled by a 6x2 or 4x2.
ROG:
Own Account Driver:
However, what is technically legal and reality are different. We hire out trailers and police issuing fixed penalties for the plated trailer weight + the GVW of the tow vehicle being over the GTW is fairly common.Under what LAW do they issue that ticket?
They must state what law has been broken to issue a charge …
I have heard this type of myth before where some were saying that the police were issuing tickets because the set up had the potential in the MAM weights to exceed the GTW or towing capacity and yet when challenged none of those could produce anything to back up what they said …
Own account driver, can you please answer the question by rog as to the actual law the tickets are claiming has been broken? You say you have seen it many times yet have avoided answering this question. I’m genuinely interested as sure as hell id be fighting any ticket like that all the way to court, assuming the case made it that far.
clark_rally:
ROG:
Own Account Driver:
However, what is technically legal and reality are different. We hire out trailers and police issuing fixed penalties for the plated trailer weight + the GVW of the tow vehicle being over the GTW is fairly common.Under what LAW do they issue that ticket?
They must state what law has been broken to issue a charge …
I have heard this type of myth before where some were saying that the police were issuing tickets because the set up had the potential in the MAM weights to exceed the GTW or towing capacity and yet when challenged none of those could produce anything to back up what they said …
Own account driver, can you please answer the question by rog as to the actual law the tickets are claiming has been broken? You say you have seen it many times yet have avoided answering this question. I’m genuinely interested as sure as hell id be fighting any ticket like that all the way to court, assuming the case made it that far.
I reckon if a FPN was issued then his customers exceeded the GTW by loading the vehicle and trailer to their individual maximums
Example …
Vehicle GVW 2000 and loaded to that weight
Trailer MAM 2500 and loaded to that weight
GTW 4000 so now the set up is 500 over
The only way to prevent his customers doing that would be to tailor every trailer MAM to the vehicle towing it which would be a non starter business wise
Simplest way to help the customers would be to supply a simple leaflet with the rules clearly set out
Coincidence this.Following a tidy Sprinter towing a small empty twin wheel trailer yesterday.Correct number plate , lights not speeding.
Along comes Vosa galaxy , gets in front of it and puts the follow me on.
This was at end of M56.
License or tacho check?
disgo:
Coincidence this.Following a tidy Sprinter towing a small empty twin wheel trailer yesterday.Correct number plate , lights not speeding.
Along comes Vosa galaxy , gets in front of it and puts the follow me on.
This was at end of M56.
License or tacho check?
More likely to be o licence check ,as this has been required for hire and reward since dec 2011 but not widely publishised ,although own goods need a tacho they are still exempt from even a restricted o licence .
disgo:
Coincidence this.Following a tidy Sprinter towing a small empty twin wheel trailer yesterday.Correct number plate , lights not speeding.
Along comes Vosa galaxy , gets in front of it and puts the follow me on.
This was at end of M56.
License or tacho check?
weight, tacho and Operator licence - plus driving licence if plod in attendance
Possible to be exempt tacho and O licence if under an exemption
clark_rally:
ROG:
Own Account Driver:
However, what is technically legal and reality are different. We hire out trailers and police issuing fixed penalties for the plated trailer weight + the GVW of the tow vehicle being over the GTW is fairly common.Under what LAW do they issue that ticket?
They must state what law has been broken to issue a charge …
I have heard this type of myth before where some were saying that the police were issuing tickets because the set up had the potential in the MAM weights to exceed the GTW or towing capacity and yet when challenged none of those could produce anything to back up what they said …
Own account driver, can you please answer the question by rog as to the actual law the tickets are claiming has been broken? You say you have seen it many times yet have avoided answering this question. I’m genuinely interested as sure as hell id be fighting any ticket like that all the way to court, assuming the case made it that far.
Haven’t answered because I don’t know and I didn’t keep copies of tickets to win an internet argument. I am not saying you couldn’t fight it in court. If anyone wants to tow a large but unladen trailer behind their saloon car they’re more than welcome to. I am just pointing out what my experience is from hiring out trailers.
ROG:
clark_rally:
ROG:
Own Account Driver:
However, what is technically legal and reality are different. We hire out trailers and police issuing fixed penalties for the plated trailer weight + the GVW of the tow vehicle being over the GTW is fairly common.Under what LAW do they issue that ticket?
They must state what law has been broken to issue a charge …
I have heard this type of myth before where some were saying that the police were issuing tickets because the set up had the potential in the MAM weights to exceed the GTW or towing capacity and yet when challenged none of those could produce anything to back up what they said …
Own account driver, can you please answer the question by rog as to the actual law the tickets are claiming has been broken? You say you have seen it many times yet have avoided answering this question. I’m genuinely interested as sure as hell id be fighting any ticket like that all the way to court, assuming the case made it that far.
I reckon if a FPN was issued then his customers exceeded the GTW by loading the vehicle and trailer to their individual maximums
Example …
Vehicle GVW 2000 and loaded to that weight
Trailer MAM 2500 and loaded to that weight
GTW 4000 so now the set up is 500 overThe only way to prevent his customers doing that would be to tailor every trailer MAM to the vehicle towing it which would be a non starter business wise
Simplest way to help the customers would be to supply a simple leaflet with the rules clearly set out
Trailers are almost always unladen and I generally believe customers when they say this they don’t come back with weighbridge stories.
We have downplated versions of car transporter and flatbed trailers but it’s a 10 second job to change the plate. Don’t let customers take them otherwise.
Did have a know-it-all last year who collected an empty brian james car trailer on his way home with his Mazda 6, although he was going to use a van to tow it to a track day, - against our advice. He got pulled and a fp but at least he didn’t then expect us to refund it out of the hire cost.