Time for the regulation of LGV and PCV training?

The recent siege at a training broker’s offices suggests to me that this may be the right time for a campaign to make the provision of LGV and PCV training a regulated matter.

Unfortunately, the current government is pursuing an aggressive campaign of reducing regulation, supposedly in the interests of business competitiveness. However, I believe that the current situation with LGV training brokers acts very much against the public interest, allowing these companies to make considerable profit for providing often unsatisfactory training (or no training at all if they go bust before paying the training provider).

I would hope any campaign can focus on the following issues.

Any instructor providing practical tuition on driving LGVs or PCVs (including being paid by an employer to teach in-house) should have to be on the DSA’s LGV or PCV register

Anyone teaching car driving for payment has to be a registered Approved Driving Instructor. ADIs have to:* pass qualifying tests: a theory test, an advanced driving test and a test of instructional ability

  • display their ADI badge in the windscreen during lessons
  • submit to periodic ‘check tests’ of their instructional ability where a DSA examiner acts as a simulated learner and grades them on their instructional ability
  • be monitored by DSA on the practical test performance of candidates they taught

Those providing on-road tuition to qualified car drivers for payment also have to be ADIs, even if they don’t teach learners. Unless the law has changed recently, civilian police driving instructors have to be ADIs.

There is no direct equivalent of the ADI scheme for motorcycle tuition, though approval is required to run Certificate of Basic Training courses and to supervise Direct Access learners on larger bikes. The only on-road training that instructors without either of these approvals can provide is to learners on bikes of 125cc or less.

In mid-January 2013, the law around motorcycle licenses will get tougher as the UK implements the Third Driving Licence Directive. Once these changes come into effect, the restricted motorcycle entitlement gained by taking a test on a 125cc bike will not be automatically upgraded to unrestricted motorcycle entitlement after two years. It could well be that a much greater proportion of learner bikers who are entitled to use the Direct Access route take their test on a 600cc or larger bike (600cc is the minimum for Direct Access from 2013), making the Direct Access instructor’s qualification a de-facto ADI qualification for professional motorcycle instructors.

The DSA register for LGV and PCV driving instructors is voluntary - a fact that I am sure will surprise most members of the public, including many prospective LGV and PCV learners. An LGV or PCV driving instructor merely has to satisfy the requirements to supervise a learner, which is:* hold the relevant licence for three years, or

  • hold the relevant licence for one year and the corresponding licence from the ‘other’ family for three years - for example, a driver holding category D for three years and category C for one year can supervise a category C learner

An LGV instructor never has to have driven an LGV since his or her test!

Even competent drivers do not necessarily make good instructors because teaching involves far more than being good at doing something yourself. A good instructor:* has excellent communication skills, including the ability to explain themselves in multiple different ways

  • has good inter-personal skills
  • is patient
  • can rapidly analyse a learner’s training needs and diagnose their faults
  • has the ability to analyse a learner’s progress and plan their tuition
  • remains appropriately self-critical at all times, and
  • recognises that they never stop learning themselves

Training and developing a professional instructor takes considerable time and money. Unfortunately, the general public do not know that LGV and PCV instruction is unregulated - they may well shop around for the lowest price without realising the DSA’s supervision of instructors is purely voluntary. It isn’t that expensive to get a flashy web site and put some vinyl graphics on a lorry - exactly the sort of things that ■■■■ many prospective learners in.

Bad instructors cost candidates more in the end. After all, it’s in a bad instructor’s interests for a candidate to fail, as they can make more money training the candidate for a retest. “You’ve come so far, it would be a shame to throw it away for the sake of a few hundred quid” is a powerful lever to opening the wallet of an increasingly frustrated learner.

However, the current situation also has road safety implications. Driving tests are only a snapshot of driving ability, but especially with larger vehicles, it should not be enough for a poorly trained candidate to scrape through their test after several failures whilst still being far from competent. Many countries require a minimum number of hours of tuition with a registered instructor before taking a practical driving test. The UK doesn’t even require this, even for vocational categories.

DSA have no leverage against bad LGV and PCV training providers. The pass rate of car test candidates for each ADI is monitored and I believe that poorly performing instructors have to take an early check test. DSA cannot take any action against bad LGV and PCV training providers; the poor providers are most unlikely to be DSA approved.

If the standard of preparation of test candidates improved, the damage and accident records of newly-qualified drivers may also improve. This, in turn, may lead to insurers being a little less harsh on newly-qualified drivers, improving their work prospects and therefore the value of their newly acquired licence (though, of course, there is no shortage of qualified LGV drivers in many areas at present).

Any driving school offering LGV or PCV training to members of the public should be required to be DSA approved

At the moment, LGV and PCV driving schools are exempt from operator licensing as their vehicles are not carrying goods for commercial purposes or passengers. I believe DSA approval of the training company should be looked on as a mandatory operator’s licence to provide training services to the public.

This would allow VOSA to holding training companies to the same requirements as those holders of restricted operator’s licences in terms of the maintenance and similar. However, I believe this should go further. The Traffic Commissioner can consider the repute of a transport manager listed against a standard operator’s licence. I believe that the Traffic Commissioner should be empowered to consider the repute of the head of an LGV or driving school - and that repute in this context should cover instructional matters as well as other operator’s licensing matters.

I would suggest that those holding an operator’s licence who only train their own employees do not need to be DSA approved but merely have to use registered instructors. The maintenance of vehicles is covered by the existing operator’s licence regime, and no employer will stand for sub-standard training that doesn’t get their employees through their tests quickly. When you are paying both instructor and candidate, you need results!

Consideration should be given to requiring that only DSA approved LGV and PCV training providers can accept money for LGV and PCV driving courses

Once brokers have to use DSA registered providers, it would be illegal to pass trainees on to a cheapskate operation run by someone who:* passed his rigid LGV test three years ago but has barely driven an LGV since

  • has no instructional training
  • never took his initial DCPC test, even though he’s preparing candidates for initial DCPC
  • uses a tired old lorry he bought for a few thousand pounds
  • parks his lorry outside his house and only takes to a fitter if it breaks down or fails the MoT (as there’s no O licence required), and
  • carries out reversing training on some tired piece of concrete he borrows from a landowner

At the moment, a broker can charge the going rate for LGV training and make considerable profit by passing the candidate on to this sort of cheap provider. DSA approved providers can’t hope to compete with these cheap providers - their overheads are going to be much greater.

A mandatory approval requirement will likely remove much of the commercial incentive that keeps the brokers in operation. However, if brokers continue to rip off the public by taking money for training that they don’t then deliver, it would be a straightforward change in the law to forbid any organisation that was not DSA approved from accepting money from the public for LGV and PCV training.

Even with this change in the law, it would be possible for umbrella organisations to market themselves nationally, along the lines of InjuryLawyers4u. Unlike many of the firms selling personal injury claim services to the public, InjuryLawyers4u acts as an introducer to member companies who are all regulated solicitors’ practices. The member companies pay fees to InjuryLawyers4u for each lead, the public have a brand to turn to - though I would still argue that anyone who is injured in an accident is better served by going direct to a firm of specialist personal injury solicitors.

If mandatory DSA approval of training providers failed to stamp out the problem of unscrupulous brokers, it would be a small extension to the law to prohibit any organisation from taking money for LGV and PCV training unless they were DSA approved. The brokers could continue as introduction services paid by the training providers, but the individual trainee’s contract would be with a DSA approved provider against whom DSA could impose sanctions for malpractice.

What do people think? I don’t have the time or energy to drive this forward, but others do. Is Rikki able to bring this up with his employers - magazine coverage would certainly help. Is there any way to get the RHA and FTA interested? What about organisations like RoSPA and Brake? Are people willing to lobby their MPs and write to the Secretary of State for Transport? Are operators and existing training providers willing to get involved? Can we do anything with existing contacts with Watchdog and similar consumer programmes who have run stories on the brokers?

I firmly believe the existing situation helps nobody other the cheapskate training providers and brokers who line their pockets at others’ expense. LGV and PCV licences are supposed to be vocational licences, indicating the ability to drive large commercial vehicles. Surely the drivers of these vehicles should be trained to professional standards.

Not sure the industry would want to change as the percentage of registered instructors is low, those that are doing the job would not want the additional cost of getting registered otherwise they would have already done it,

Would be interesting to know how many of the trainers on here are DSA registered ■■?, please form an orderly queue … and fill in the list.

  1. Peter Smythe

Noworries:
Not sure the industry would want to change as the percentage of registered instructors is low, those that are doing the job would not want the additional cost of getting registered otherwise they would have already done it

I see it the other way up. There is little advantage in being registered at present, as few potential trainees even know about the register. All potential LGV drivers will have learned to drive a car, and most will have used an ADI to learn. They probably assume that LGV drivers are also supervised by DSA.

If DSA registration were compulsory, the majority of competent LGV providers would have little trouble achieving registration standards and would know there was, at last, real value in demonstrating their competence via registration.

At the moment, the number of DSA registered LGV training establishements is lamentably low - the list can be found here. However, many other unregistered but competent and well-regarded providers only use DSA registered LGV instructors, and I would argue it is requiring those teaching LGV or PCV driving commercially to be registered as instructors that is the most important first step.

Totally agree about registered instructors all should be tested by the dsa.

The centre approval needs a little work with regards to instructors working towards the dsa registration.

Needing an o licence would put the cost of training up but not make any real difference. The training vehicles almost have an mot every time they are presented for test. If an examiner sees anything wrong they will not go out and put the kettle on again.

Whilst I support the OP, it wont happen because there is little appetite for change in the industry or in parliament. The voluntary register started around 1997 and I assumed it would become compulsory around 1999/2000 - a similar timescale to what we experienced with car instruction.

The fact is that there are so-called trainers out there who have attempted the tests and failed. And yes of course they are still taking cash from people who know no different or better.

The whole thing is a national scandal and should be dealt with but it will, I think, remain the total mess it is now.

The only sanction people have at the moment is reports to Trading Standards.

Years ago we had a veritable rash of back street trainers in the area. One by one they were sorted by Trading Standards.

So whilst this is a gallant effort which I totally support, sorry but it’s doomed to the same failure that we’ve experienced over the years.

And then there is the normal first question from a potential trainee: How much? Pity it’s so rarely a question about qualifications, experience, quality of vehicles, facilities, pass rates. Cheap is rarely the least expensive.

Pete :laughing: :laughing:

Noworries:
Not sure the industry would want to change as the percentage of registered instructors is low, those that are doing the job would not want the additional cost of getting registered otherwise they would have already done it,

Would be interesting to know how many of the trainers on here are DSA registered ■■?, please form an orderly queue … and fill in the list.

  1. Peter Smythe
    2.Yellowasp

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

On a similar subject, when the candidate arrives for test they are asked to sign 2 declarations, one of which is to certify that the vehicle is insured for test.

I know of vehicles that are not insured for training but are used all the time for the purpose. Every candidate innocently signs that declaration. How can that be right? You see, IMO, this is another reason for the industry to be properly regulated. I have to produce ALL my relevant insurances (vehicle, public liability, employer’s liability) together with numerous other policy documents on a regular basis in order to maintain DSA Accredited Centre status. This is apart from MOT certificates etc.

And then I am expected to compete with XY and Z down the road running out of a pub yard with an untrained, unqualified instructor in a rusty, dodgy truck (totally unsuitable spec for training) with no facilities.

My point is that candidates need to ask the right questions. Obviously cost is important. But cost is NOT the same thing as initial price in many cases.

I pride myself on what we do and how we do it. No we haven’t got 100% pass rate - it’s only the highest in the Midlands and the 3rd highest (by 0.4%) in England. But I do know that candidates are trained in a properly maintained vehicle by a correctly trained and registered instructor and that professional support is underlying everything we do.

So, to end my ramble, the sooner regulation is brought into place the better. But the cynic in me says it wont happen and people will continue to pay for inferior training in poor vehicles by untrained instructors. So it continues to be a mess.

Have a great weekend everyone! Pete :laughing: :laughing:

I agree fully with the OP and with the spirit of what Peter is saying about the need for closer regulation. What is strange is that most other transport related training is tighly regulated.

ADR and periodic CPC is regulated both in terms of training company facilities and instructor abilities.

Initial CPC training however is not regulated nor is Operator CPC training (although the testing is)

The reasons for needing ADI qualification for cars MUST be exactly the same as for Vocational licence acquisition

Be carefull what you wish for.

I used to be involved in plant & tool hire in the days when that was totally unregulated. Looking back 30yrs ago it really was like the wild west, yet most of us didn’t want to be cowboys. We wanted to be professional, we wanted to raise standards & above all, we wanted a level playing field. We thought we couldn’t compete with the Co’s putting £10k’s worth of plant out at £100pw but you know what, looking back we did OK.

I remember attending a regional meeting of one of our industry bodies, the Hire Association of Europe, the main player had called these regional meetings because something very fundamental & potentially, devastatingly, damaging to our industry was about to go through the European Parliament. I won’t bore you with the details but it came within 6hrs of being made law, & it would’ve effectively shut down every plant & tool hire business in Europe !

I don’t know why the bureaucrats have left LGV training alone, but if they one day choose to get involved, you will all come to wish they had’nt.

Get your own houses in order, link up & try to form a strong, single association to look after your collective interests. Any business that chooses to win its business by under pricing you should be allowed to die its own natural death. You really don’t want the bureaucrats getting involved.

Get your own houses in order, link up & try to form a strong, single association to look after your collective interests.

I agree a strong self regulatory body run and funded by the industry, with transparent codes of practice and that actively self polices/checks, and is accountable, is far preferable to a whole raft of poorly thought out regulation from politicians that dont understand the business.

The hardest part will be to set/agree the standards, produce and promote a “Charter/quality” mark that has the backing that it is enforced and then get that sign of quality promoted enough that it becomes the recognised mark of a respectable well run business

The industry itself can do it if the willingness to work together and fund it is there…

It cannot be done from outside as the willingness to participate from within the industry has to be there.

Chas speaks a lot of sense as does Rikki. There are two standards in place already. Firstly the LGV Register of LGV Instructors and secondly the DSA Accredited Training Centre register.

Surely it’s not beyond the wit of man to make at least the first one mandatory?

Pete :laughing: :laughing:

Peter Smythe:
Chas speaks a lot of sense as does Rikki. There are two standards in place already. Firstly the LGV Register of LGV Instructors and secondly the DSA Accredited Training Centre register.

Surely it’s not beyond the wit of man to make at least the first one mandatory?

Pete :laughing: :laughing:

neither are really regulatory though Pete, or recognised enough to become the quality mark amongst those dont really know the industry, those just entering it and looking for training.

How many schools use the DSA logo, as well as the RHA and FTA ones, thats what folks recognise at the moment as the quality mark _ Pathway, Highway, Blackwater all had them on their websites and we all know about them - but for a new guy they look enough to give a guarentee of quality.

You need an ENFORCED, MONITORED quality assurance programme - and the best guys to do this is the better element of the industry, but via a trade assocation that acts in a partisan neutral manner- and is not scared of sanctioning or even removing the quality mark from ANY company even yours Pete if for any reason( which i doubt would happen knowing you, but just to make the point) you dindt come up to the standards set.

Rikki-UK:

Get your own houses in order, link up & try to form a strong, single association to look after your collective interests.

I agree a strong self regulatory body run and funded by the industry, with transparent codes of practice and that actively self polices/checks, and is accountable, is far preferable to a whole raft of poorly thought out regulation from politicians that dont understand the business.

The hardest part, & I know this from experience of other industries, is every LGV training business out there will be run by a character who thinks that all other LGV training business’s should be officially regulated, yet theirs own should be left alone to carry on as before.

Bureaucracy will visit you soon, my gobsmack is utterly flummoxed as to why they have left you alone for sooo long.

Understand that Chas… but if they dont do something, then one day they will have something imposed on them, that will be far worse and far more restrictive and beuracratic… The industry has a window of opportunity to clean its own act up, if they dont sooner or later it will be imposed on them… and it should be the better element now that takes that lead rather than the cowboy element to do it and make it a laughing stock/whitewash that only serves the worst

Theres enough “respected” training schools on here, and I am sure they all know a few other good ones that are not on here, to start talking, club together and hire a room for a day and get a neutral chair person and and least get talking to see if there is the desire to self regulate

We can provide a totally private on line forum just for the schools to at least start the discussion if wanted, but the industry has to take the lead, TruckNet is not going to and cannot do do it for you

Rikki-UK:
You need an ENFORCED, MONITORED quality assurance programme - and the best guys to do this is the better element of the industry, but via a trade assocation that acts in a partisan neutral manner- and is not scared of sanctioning or even removing the quality mark from ANY company even yours Pete if for any reason( which i doubt would happen knowing you, but just to make the point) you dindt come up to the standards set.

You’ve hit my nail firmly on its head.

No one knows better how to run the LGV training industry better than decent & respected LGV trainers. Why you lot don’t already have a uniform trade association I’ll never know. You are crying out for the bureaucrats to visit you & make it a very difficult arena in which to make money.

Self regulation would never work I fear. It has been tried before and never took off.

The simplest way of introducing a quality control would be to start with the instructor registration. It is already in place and would be the cheapest option to implement. It would cost a few hundred pounds for each instructor every 4 years and is simply audited by the examiner when a trainee is presented to test.

To get an association going would cost training companies that wanted to be part of it thousands to fund.

The simplest way of introducing a quality control would be to start with the instructor registration. It is already in place and would be the cheapest option to implement. It would cost a few hundred pounds for each instructor every 4 years and is simply audited by the examiner when a trainee is presented to test.

Totally agree. That would be an excellent start. Everything is already in place. Just let it happen and it will immediately remove a large proportion of cowboy trainers.

Pete :laughing: :laughing:

Apart from compulsory trainer qualifications is there much else that could be done regarding regulating the industry in general.

The minimum vehicle specs were changed a few years ago so what else could be improved ? Perhaps business registration that could ensure minimum facilities and operating procedures.

One idea might be to make all LGV driver training automatically count towards periodic CPC subject to the trainer having JAUPT approval. The system is already in place ensuring certain standards. It could easily be worked in to exclude bookings through 3rd parties / brokers.

I believe the main reason that customer service is often ignored by trainers and brokers alike is because apart from recommendations there is little repeat business from the same customer. This might change with periodic CPC when it really gets going. When trainers realise they might get the customer back year after year the overall service should improve.

JAUPT has raised its ugly head as I was composing my post.

At the moment we have Driving Standards Agency, Driver Vehicle Licensing Agency and Vehicle Operator Services Agency.

DSA look after the driving schools and examiners.
DVLA issue driving licences and V5 documents.
VOSA Vosa do all the other stuff, plating certificates, downrating, testing, enforcement, operator licensing. They take errant drivers and operators to task and issue sanctions.

The regulation needs to be combined into one which may streamline the operation, use the same criteria for training and get rid of overlaps in the system. At the moment VOSA oversee the haulage and coach industry, they authorise the garages where you take your cars for annual inspection (MOT)

There are hundreds of private trainers who have jumped on the DCPC band wagon which is an ill thought out regulation in the UK at least. Other countries have got off lightly, they have managed to cut their compulsory training back to basics.

JAUPT as a company is made up of the haulage trade bodies, the skills council and coach operators,they have no teeth, they just know how to charge a lot of money to remain in a shiny office block in Milton Keynes.

I would abolish all the above apart from VOSA and they would be the ones who certify driving instructors, schools, training establishments and give out qualifications. The traffic commissioners then have powers to remove training school certificates, instructor qualifications and silent shop the market.