Just seen this
commercialmotor.com/news/co … 7C_News_CM
It’s interesting…
That it’s the TC not HMRC calling the shots.
yourhavingalarf:
It’s interesting…That it’s the TC not HMRC calling the shots.
Well reading the article it seems like a cowboy outfit. They were called in front of the TC for a host of other reasons. They didnt even know about the LTD thing until later.
The company, which has two operating centres in Marchwood, Hampshire, appeared before the TC at a Bristol PI following a traffic examiner report which uncovered a raft of shortcomings. These included an expired Driver CPC and no copies of driving licences, CPC cards, tacho cards or any licence checks. There was also no driver training being conducted internally, the Working Time Directive was not being monitored and no PMI records were available to analyse. However, the issue of employing drivers through their own companies was not in the PI’s call-in letter and only became apparent on scrutiny of the firm’s bank statements. As a result, TC Rooney set the clock ticking for the firm to overhaul its employment practices or else face the loss of its licence.
The TC has no power to fine them for this issue though. It will be down to HMRC to recoup any money if owed. The TC can suspend their licence though.
Personally I think they should just go back to allowing Ltd companies. The money lost by HMRC is minimal and it will keep more hgv drivers working.
adam277:
The money lost by HMRC is minimal
You what? If it only applied to HGV drivers and only a handful you’d have a point but it doesn’t. But IR35 also applies to people like a mate of mine who charges £400 per day and people he knows in London charging £600+ per day. And it’s not the tax that’s the biggest issue because dividend and corporation tax is effectively structured so there’s little to no tax advantage, it’s the national insurance because it’s not just employee NI that’s lost but employers NI as well. Every £100 you take out as a dividend between £6240 and £50,700 a year which if you were an employee you couldn’t loses the HMRC £25.80 in employers and employee NI. So you take out £10k as dividends then that’s £2580 they lose. So 100 drivers do it that’s £258,000 lost. 1000 drivers do it that’s £2.58 million pounds they lose. 10,000 drivers do it that’s £25.8 million pounds lost. And that’s just for £10,000 and for 10,000 lorry drivers. Now when you throw in how many people were also doing it in the IT sector you could be looking at 500,000 or more people and they’re doing it for a lot more than £10k each. It could feasibly be costing HMRC over a billion pounds in national insurance being avoided by people who are effectively disguised employees.
and it will keep more hgv drivers working.
Utter codswallop. Unless they’ve gone off to do something else that no doubt will pay better they’ll come crawling back because the options are to pay tax and NI like the employees they actually are or have sod all to live on. And if you’d rather sit there on £0 a week because you refuse to pay tax and NI like everyone else then does the industry really need a drooling ■■■■■■ like you?
It’ll be interesting to see which more successful haulier yards will bid for the work - once it all goes back into the melting pot…
There are still rather too many outfits that simply won’t pay going rates to drivers already on their books, and rely on the ignorance of those drivers that there is a “Better world outside these gates”… We’ll quickly reach the point where a yard only has Ltd Romanians (for example) left on their books, working via an agency also run by Romanians, such as Staffline.
The agency - then becomes nothing more than a front for compliances Ltd to PAYE at least on paper, although it is arguable that this is all that particular agency ever was.
There’s also rather too many firms both O licence holders and agencies out there that still offer and quote “Rolled up holiday” rates, even though it has been illegal for a while now. 
Winseer:
It’ll be interesting to see which more successful haulier yards will bid for the work - once it all goes back into the melting pot…There are still rather too many outfits that simply won’t pay going rates to drivers already on their books, and rely on the ignorance of those drivers that there is a “Better world outside these gates”… We’ll quickly reach the point where a yard only has Ltd Romanians (for example) left on their books, working via an agency also run by Romanians, such as Staffline.
The agency - then becomes nothing more than a front for compliances Ltd to PAYE at least on paper, although it is arguable that this is all that particular agency ever was.
There’s also rather too many firms both O licence holders and agencies out there that still offer and quote “Rolled up holiday” rates, even though it has been illegal for a while now.
The company is a bottom feeder container outfit so no loss
Winseer:
It’ll be interesting to see which more successful haulier yards will bid for the work - once it all goes back into the melting pot…There are still rather too many outfits that simply won’t pay going rates to drivers already on their books, and rely on the ignorance of those drivers that there is a “Better world outside these gates”… We’ll quickly reach the point where a yard only has Ltd Romanians (for example) left on their books, working via an agency also run by Romanians, such as Staffline.
The agency - then becomes nothing more than a front for compliances Ltd to PAYE at least on paper, although it is arguable that this is all that particular agency ever was.
There’s also rather too many firms both O licence holders and agencies out there that still offer and quote “Rolled up holiday” rates, even though it has been illegal for a while now.
I work for staffline, all the jobs I offered is PAYE no Ltd or umbrella scheme. Yes you have either rolled up holiday money or normal holiday choice is yours. It’s easier to take the holiday money, put it too one side and use it when take some time off. It’s called budgeting . I carnt understand why everyone getting so hot under the collar about it.
Getting ready for some abuse 
Conor:
adam277:
The money lost by HMRC is minimalYou what? If it only applied to HGV drivers and only a handful you’d have a point but it doesn’t. But IR35 also applies to people like a mate of mine who charges £400 per day and people he knows in London charging £600+ per day. And it’s not the tax that’s the biggest issue because dividend and corporation tax is effectively structured so there’s little to no tax advantage, it’s the national insurance because it’s not just employee NI that’s lost but employers NI as well. Every £100 you take out as a dividend between £6240 and £50,700 a year which if you were an employee you couldn’t loses the HMRC £25.80 in employers and employee NI. So you take out £10k as dividends then that’s £2580 they lose. So 100 drivers do it that’s £258,000 lost. 1000 drivers do it that’s £2.58 million pounds they lose. 10,000 drivers do it that’s £25.8 million pounds lost. And that’s just for £10,000 and for 10,000 lorry drivers. Now when you throw in how many people were also doing it in the IT sector you could be looking at 500,000 or more people and they’re doing it for a lot more than £10k each. It could feasibly be costing HMRC over a billion pounds in national insurance being avoided by people who are effectively disguised employees.
and it will keep more hgv drivers working.
Utter codswallop. Unless they’ve gone off to do something else that no doubt will pay better they’ll come crawling back because the options are to pay tax and NI like the employees they actually are or have sod all to live on. And if you’d rather sit there on £0 a week because you refuse to pay tax and NI like everyone else then does the industry really need a drooling ■■■■■■ like you?
Hit the nail on the head
Interesting, it’s cost HMRC & therefore Government so much money that it’s only taken over 20 years to fully enforce IR35 in the private sector, beggars belief.
Conor:
adam277:
The money lost by HMRC is minimalYou what? If it only applied to HGV drivers and only a handful you’d have a point but it doesn’t. But IR35 also applies to people like a mate of mine who charges £400 per day and people he knows in London charging £600+ per day. And it’s not the tax that’s the biggest issue because dividend and corporation tax is effectively structured so there’s little to no tax advantage, it’s the national insurance because it’s not just employee NI that’s lost but employers NI as well. Every £100 you take out as a dividend between £6240 and £50,700 a year which if you were an employee you couldn’t loses the HMRC £25.80 in employers and employee NI. So you take out £10k as dividends then that’s £2580 they lose. So 100 drivers do it that’s £258,000 lost. 1000 drivers do it that’s £2.58 million pounds they lose. 10,000 drivers do it that’s £25.8 million pounds lost. And that’s just for £10,000 and for 10,000 lorry drivers. Now when you throw in how many people were also doing it in the IT sector you could be looking at 500,000 or more people and they’re doing it for a lot more than £10k each. It could feasibly be costing HMRC over a billion pounds in national insurance being avoided by people who are effectively disguised employees.
and it will keep more hgv drivers working.
Utter codswallop. Unless they’ve gone off to do something else that no doubt will pay better they’ll come crawling back because the options are to pay tax and NI like the employees they actually are or have sod all to live on. And if you’d rather sit there on £0 a week because you refuse to pay tax and NI like everyone else then does the industry really need a drooling ■■■■■■ like you?
With Conor on this. Despite being a director of a Ltd company with employees, I paid myself PAYE not dividends. A conservatives estimate puts me at paying 115k more than I would have via dividends. That may be daft or principle depending on your privacy, but whichever that is no small amount and if you are part of society, you should cough up.
Conor:
adam277:
The money lost by HMRC is minimalYou what? If it only applied to HGV drivers and only a handful you’d have a point but it doesn’t. But IR35 also applies to people like a mate of mine who charges £400 per day and people he knows in London charging £600+ per day. And it’s not the tax that’s the biggest issue because dividend and corporation tax is effectively structured so there’s little to no tax advantage, it’s the national insurance because it’s not just employee NI that’s lost but employers NI as well. Every £100 you take out as a dividend between £6240 and £50,700 a year which if you were an employee you couldn’t loses the HMRC £25.80 in employers and employee NI. So you take out £10k as dividends then that’s £2580 they lose. So 100 drivers do it that’s £258,000 lost. 1000 drivers do it that’s £2.58 million pounds they lose. 10,000 drivers do it that’s £25.8 million pounds lost. And that’s just for £10,000 and for 10,000 lorry drivers. Now when you throw in how many people were also doing it in the IT sector you could be looking at 500,000 or more people and they’re doing it for a lot more than £10k each. It could feasibly be costing HMRC over a billion pounds in national insurance being avoided by people who are effectively disguised employees.
and it will keep more hgv drivers working.
Utter codswallop. Unless they’ve gone off to do something else that no doubt will pay better they’ll come crawling back because the options are to pay tax and NI like the employees they actually are or have sod all to live on. And if you’d rather sit there on £0 a week because you refuse to pay tax and NI like everyone else then does the industry really need a drooling ■■■■■■ like you?
Well that may well be the case now. When I was working with people who were LTD. I knew a fair few who were basically paying nothing in tax or NI.
I am sure that has all changed now that everything is more digitalised though.
As always I’ll refer to your expertise on the matter though as you know this stuff far more than I do.
Winseer:
It’ll be interesting to see which more successful haulier yards will bid for the work - once it all goes back into the melting pot…There are still rather too many outfits that simply won’t pay going rates to drivers already on their books, and rely on the ignorance of those drivers that there is a “Better world outside these gates”… We’ll quickly reach the point where a yard only has Ltd Romanians (for example) left on their books, working via an agency also run by Romanians, such as Staffline.
The agency - then becomes nothing more than a front for compliances Ltd to PAYE at least on paper, although it is arguable that this is all that particular agency ever was.
There’s also rather too many firms both O licence holders and agencies out there that still offer and quote “Rolled up holiday” rates, even though it has been illegal for a while now.
Staffline stopped taking Ltd drivers way before they had to, they were only offering PAYE before the IR35 judgement came in. They also are not run by Romanians.
adam277:
Well that may well be the case now. When I was working with people who were LTD. I knew a fair few who were basically paying nothing in tax or NI.
I am sure that has all changed now that everything is more digitalised though.
They may not have been paying income tax and NI but their Ltd Company would have been paying corporation tax and they’d be paying dividend tax as dividends would be how they took a “wage” out of the company without paying NI so from a tax point of view HMRC basically get the same amount of money but from a national insurance point of view HMRC lose thousands of pounds.
adam277:
Well that may well be the case now. When I was working with people who were LTD. I knew a fair few who were basically paying nothing in tax or NI.
LTD drivers didn’t pay income tax or NI. They paid corporation tax and dividend tax.
Some LTD drivers who changed to PAYE, now pay less tax than when they were LTD…as they don’t pay any employee’s NI on the first £184/week paid through each agency.
The £184/week employee’s NI tax free allowance is for the current 2021/22 tax year.
Conor:
adam277:
Well that may well be the case now. When I was working with people who were LTD. I knew a fair few who were basically paying nothing in tax or NI.
I am sure that has all changed now that everything is more digitalised though.They may not have been paying income tax and NI but their Ltd Company would have been paying corporation tax and they’d be paying dividend tax as dividends would be how they took a “wage” out of the company without paying NI so from a tax point of view HMRC basically get the same amount of money but from a national insurance point of view HMRC lose thousands of pounds.
Well in this specific example I am thinking of.
Which involved 7.5t drivers.
They were working for a sub contractor who paid them either cash in hand or bank transfer 
.
So we not talking about master tax dodgers here. Although one guy I spoke to said he hasnt paid tax in over 10 years and only takes cash in hand work.
Edit:
Connor can you explain this job for me?
adrnetwork.co.uk/jobs/job-d … 000kDhBQAU
How can they still get away with using LTD? They are a reputable agency so I dont think they are breaking the law
I first thought this was for people using their own unit but that rate is way too low for that.
robbo99.:
Interesting, it’s cost HMRC & therefore Government so much money that it’s only taken over 20 years to fully enforce IR35 in the private sector, beggars belief.
Truck drivers are just a small part of it though. A lot of people affected by IR35 will be good solid Tory voters, the IT crowd for instance, drawing office or engineers. Well remunerated professionals but not adverse to the tax avoidance afforded by “self employment” even though they’ve been in the same job 20 years!
Sent from my R19 using Tapatalk
Munchkin:
robbo99.:
Interesting, it’s cost HMRC & therefore Government so much money that it’s only taken over 20 years to fully enforce IR35 in the private sector, beggars belief.Truck drivers are just a small part of it though. A lot of people affected by IR35 will be good solid Tory voters, the IT crowd for instance, drawing office or engineers. Well remunerated professionals but not adverse to the tax avoidance afforded by “self employment” even though they’ve been in the same job 20 years!
Sent from my R19 using Tapatalk
Judging by the number of BBC employees using IR35 a fair number of Labour voters too 
Munchkin:
robbo99.:
Interesting, it’s cost HMRC & therefore Government so much money that it’s only taken over 20 years to fully enforce IR35 in the private sector, beggars belief.Truck drivers are just a small part of it though. A lot of people affected by IR35 will be good solid Tory voters, the IT crowd for instance, drawing office or engineers. Well remunerated professionals but not adverse to the tax avoidance afforded by “self employment” even though they’ve been in the same job 20 years!
Sent from my R19 using Tapatalk
Granted, truck drivers are only a small part of it, but having the legislation at their fingertips since April 2000, HMRC had the powers to enforce it fully, not only on the public sector, (which they did) but also on the private sector, strangely they chose not to enforce it en masse on this sector. If it were down to HMRC /Government losing a fortune based on the back of a ■■■ packet calculations by the ultimate black or white Conor, then enforcement would have been much sooner, there is most definitely a bigger picture here. Politics is a strange beast.
adam277:
Well that may well be the case now. When I was working with people who were LTD. I knew a fair few who were basically paying nothing in tax or NI.
You can still be Ltd, pay yourself just under the NI threshold each week which keeps out of NI and tax threshold, and then claim the £4000 tax free dividends before having to paying additional tax. Then most of the other stuff is claimed as business expenses. Thats how I understood it works.
And then some, not all, having avoided paying into a welfare system, whinged about why they weren’t entitled to getting Govt support during the furlough periods.
adam277:
Connor can you explain this job for me?
adrnetwork.co.uk/jobs/job-d … 000kDhBQAUHow can they still get away with using LTD? They are a reputable agency so I dont think they are breaking the law
I first thought this was for people using their own unit but that rate is way too low for that.
They’re doing what an agency I know of are doing. They’ll either place Ltd with companies that are small enough that IR35 doesn’t apply or they’ll send Ltd drivers into that company for short periods of time in the misguided belief that by doing that they’ll get around IR35. One driver I know who is still Ltd does a 6 weeks for the agency then does a few weeks at a small company his friend runs then he’ll do a few weeks at another place and then be back at the agency for another 6 weeks, rinse and repeat. The belief is that by demonstrating they’ve multiple clients that IR35 doesn’t apply when the truth is that it’s determined on a client by client basis so you can be doing work that’s both inside IR35 for one client and outside IR35 for another, what applies at one doesn’t then apply for all.