The UK Haulage Industry in a Nutshell?

[evil8beezle]

robroy:

Captain Caveman 76:

robroy:
.
Is it any wonder that not many young people, in comparison to other times, do not want to enter this crock of [zb] industry, but instead seek other careers where they are valued by employers in t.s and c.s, and paid relatively well for working reasonable hours compared to the overly long shifts that we are expected to work.

What are these fantastic careers? Shelf stacking? McDonald’s? There aren’t any careers where you’re valued, maybe the odd job here and there, but certainly no careers.

Can only speak from personal experience mate, did not feel the need to state that I was not referring to McDonalds as I thought it would be obvious, but hey ho…etc…

Both my lads wanted to be truck drivers after having spent numerous times away with me when they were younger.
I did manage to dissuade them and they got jobs in different aspects of the motor trade.
My eldest lad especially is well thought of by his firm and is on more money than me for a fraction of the hours that I work.
As an example of comparison, he damaged his thumb on diy yesterday at home, and is now on the sick on full pay, and told to take as much time off by his boss until it is better.
If I had done the same I would have either have had to turn in or be at home on ■■■■■■■■.
Our lot even begrudge paying you for working let alone paying you for sitting at home…no chance.
My other lad has just qualified but is in for a job in manufacturing on £11 per hour for 39 and then time and a half.

Two examples in 2 different industries for you…(not including McDonalds or shelf stacking)

What about me?

[captain_caveman_76]

robroy:

Captain Caveman 76:

robroy:
.
Is it any wonder that not many young people, in comparison to other times, do not want to enter this crock of [zb] industry, but instead seek other careers where they are valued by employers in t.s and c.s, and paid relatively well for working reasonable hours compared to the overly long shifts that we are expected to work.

What are these fantastic careers? Shelf stacking? McDonald’s? There aren’t any careers where you’re valued, maybe the odd job here and there, but certainly no careers.

Can only speak from personal experience mate, did not feel the need to state that I was not referring to McDonalds as I thought it would be obvious, but hey ho…etc…

Both my lads wanted to be truck drivers after having spent numerous times away with me when they were younger.
I did manage to dissuade them and they got jobs in different aspects of the motor trade.
My eldest lad especially is well thought of by his firm and is on more money than me for a fraction of the hours that I work.
As an example of comparison, he damaged his thumb on diy yesterday at home, and is now on the sick on full pay, and told to take as much time off by his boss until it is better.
If I had done the same I would have either have had to turn in or be at home on ■■■■■■■■.
Our lot even begrudge paying you for working let alone paying you for sitting at home…no chance.
My other lad has just qualified but is in for a job in manufacturing on £11 per hour for 39 and then time and a half.

Two examples in 2 different industries for you…(not including McDonalds or shelf stacking)

Sorry, couldn’t resist the McDonald’s bit!

As for your lads, fair play to them for finding decent employers. But if they were to leave for somewhere else, would they be treated as well? There are good and bad employers in all fields, it’s just that the bad ones get more publicity, especially on here.

[the_nodding_donkey]

Carryfast:

the nodding donkey:
Have you noticed that when others are responding to Carryfast, Ryan suddenly dissappears…

Trust me it obviously takes him that long to dream up and write his replies.

Typical patriarchal male, can’t multitask. …

[muckles]

Evil8Beezle:

robroy:

Captain Caveman 76:

robroy:
.
Is it any wonder that not many young people, in comparison to other times, do not want to enter this crock of [zb] industry, but instead seek other careers where they are valued by employers in t.s and c.s, and paid relatively well for working reasonable hours compared to the overly long shifts that we are expected to work.

What are these fantastic careers? Shelf stacking? McDonald’s? There aren’t any careers where you’re valued, maybe the odd job here and there, but certainly no careers.

Can only speak from personal experience mate, did not feel the need to state that I was not referring to McDonalds as I thought it would be obvious, but hey ho…etc…

Both my lads wanted to be truck drivers after having spent numerous times away with me when they were younger.
I did manage to dissuade them and they got jobs in different aspects of the motor trade.
My eldest lad especially is well thought of by his firm and is on more money than me for a fraction of the hours that I work.
As an example of comparison, he damaged his thumb on diy yesterday at home, and is now on the sick on full pay, and told to take as much time off by his boss until it is better.
If I had done the same I would have either have had to turn in or be at home on ■■■■■■■■.
Our lot even begrudge paying you for working let alone paying you for sitting at home…no chance.
My other lad has just qualified but is in for a job in manufacturing on £11 per hour for 39 and then time and a half.

Two examples in 2 different industries for you…(not including McDonalds or shelf stacking)

What about me?

You’re the sort of weird Son that has been a great disappointment, he tells people you’re in Prison as it’s less embarrassing than saying you’re a truck driver.

[robroy]

Evil8Beezle:
What about me?

Yeh, you are ‘special’ son… (In many ways )
you followed in my footsteps, but I don’t admit to you when you show me up by driving in the trademark agency hi viz and earpiece, that is just too much for me.

[james_the_cat]

muckles:

Evil8Beezle:
What about me?

You’re the sort of weird Son that has been a great disappointment, he tells people you’re in Prison as it’s less embarrassing than saying you’re a truck driver.

Crying laughing . Sorry Evil

[muckles]

Captain Caveman 76:

robroy:
.
Is it any wonder that not many young people, in comparison to other times, do not want to enter this crock of [zb] industry, but instead seek other careers where they are valued by employers in t.s and c.s, and paid relatively well for working reasonable hours compared to the overly long shifts that we are expected to work.

What are these fantastic careers? Shelf stacking? McDonald’s? There aren’t any careers where you’re valued, maybe the odd job here and there, but certainly no careers.

Where I work there are young lads, (well look young to me ) who aren’t academically qualified, but have had the chance to train as CNC machine operators or specialist mechanics. They are skilled at their jobs, they turn out high precision, high value goods and the company knows they can go and work for any number of specialist engineering companies locally.
The problem is this Country has been so blinkered by the idea that everybody should go to University and get a job sitting behind a desk that we haven’t trained enough of these people, who would never be the academic University types so they get written off as thick, so they’re in short supply and this affects companies trying to grow and get the type of work where the UK can compete with the rest of the World.

[evil8beezle]

[carryfast]

muckles:
Where I work there are young lads, (well look young to me ) who aren’t academically qualified, but have had the chance to train as CNC machine operators or specialist mechanics. They are skilled at their jobs, they turn out high precision, high value goods and the company knows they can go and work for any number of specialist engineering companies locally.
The problem is this Country has been so blinkered by the idea that everybody should go to University and get a job sitting behind a desk that we haven’t trained enough of these people, who would never be the academic University types so they get written off as thick, so they’re in short supply and this affects companies trying to grow and get the type of work where the UK can compete with the rest of the World.

Some of the factory job wage was/is based on it taking a mindset that’s just as special to be able to stand working in that environment as the skills in doing the job.CNC work actually requiring even more of the former than working with the old manual machines which at least reduced some of that grinding boredom and monotony of factory life.

On that note realistically many/most of those who are cut out to be drivers wouldn’t last more than a week in that environment without wanting to get back to driving at even minimum wage.The problem then being that the employers know it and can too often take advantage of that situation because very few drivers would want to walk away for a job in a factory even if they had the skills to retrain for it.On that note my father turned down working as a truck driver,which he in large part did in the army,when he was demobbed,to get back into the engineering industry,which he was doing before he was called up.While I did the opposite,in ditching the engineering apprenticeship,which he wanted me to go through with to follow him into the engineering industry,to be a driver.Wages had absolutely no effect on that decision in my case.

[radar19]

What happens when we do finally leave and stop the endless flow of cheap labour from Eastern Europe? What happens to haulage firms who relied on that cheap labour?

[evil8beezle]

Radar19:
What happens when we do finally leave and stop the endless flow of cheap labour from Eastern Europe? What happens to haulage firms who relied on that cheap labour?

Who cares?
IF demand for drivers rises, move on to where the money is…

[muckles]

Carryfast:

muckles:
Where I work there are young lads, (well look young to me ) who aren’t academically qualified, but have had the chance to train as CNC machine operators or specialist mechanics. They are skilled at their jobs, they turn out high precision, high value goods and the company knows they can go and work for any number of specialist engineering companies locally.
The problem is this Country has been so blinkered by the idea that everybody should go to University and get a job sitting behind a desk that we haven’t trained enough of these people, who would never be the academic University types so they get written off as thick, so they’re in short supply and this affects companies trying to grow and get the type of work where the UK can compete with the rest of the World.

Some of the factory job wage was/is based on it taking a mindset that’s just as special to be able to stand working in that environment as the skills in doing the job.CNC work actually requiring even more of the former than working with the old manual machines which at least reduced some of that grinding boredom and monotony of factory life.

Having seen them work and talked to them about the job they do, I would say the work is anything from dull, they aren’t chained to some production line, producing thousands of the same part, they produce one off parts or parts in limited quantities. They don’t just get a CAD drawing and stick a bit metal in the the machine and press go. They have to work how the item can be made from the CAD drawing and then program the machine to make the part, set the machine up so the computer has all it’s reference points, put the basic material in wrong and you won’t get what you’re after, sometimes it takes several machines and processes to make a piece they’re that complex.

Carryfast:
On that note realistically many/most of those who are cut out to be drivers wouldn’t last more than a week in that environment without wanting to get back to driving at even minimum wage.The problem then being that the employers know it and can too often take advantage of that situation because very few drivers would want to walk away for a job in a factory even if they had the skills to retrain for it.On that note my father turned down working as a truck driver,which he in large part did in the army,when he was demobbed to get back into the engineering industry,which he was doing before he was called up.While I did the opposite in ditching the engineering apprenticeship,he wanted me to go through with to follow him into the engineering industry,to be a driver.Wages had absolutely no effect on that decision in my case.

I agree some people are suited to being truck drivers, I’ve had the chance to move into office work on the transport side and I’ve worked in Warehouses, Hi tech companies developing navigation and mapping systems and on IT helpdesks, but I always seem to gravitate to driving trucks, I’ve now found a niche that means I get to do the long distance work, but also get to run the transport side when back in the office, so unlike many I have some control over what I do and how things are run.
But how many people who are driving trucks are really cut out to be drivers or have just fallen into it because of the lack of apprenticeships in other industries, and given the chance would be happier and maybe better at another job?

[kr79]

Carryfast:
The Guardian.That bastion of the pro road transport cause.

More like hypocritical bunch of socalist zb wits.Who are big on statements like LHV’s are damaging but obviously not so good on facts to explain how/why.Then,just as expected,they say it would make road transport more competitive with rail which is their real bs problem.

theguardian.com/environment/ … oad-trains

On that note if truck driving is to be given the same status as train driving and made more productive we need a level trading field in the form of the most efficient vehicles possible and fuel cost regime.If not then don’t be surprised when prospective new drivers walk away from the industry because they don’t want to be lumbered with the typical zb distribution sector type work that’s left at any wage,let alone minimum wage.While on that note spare us from such hypocritical utter zb.

Did you bother to read the article?

[f-reds]

Kerragy:
Thank heavens for Rjan & Carryfast. Their posts make you consider a topic more deeply. My only criticism, which they both suffer from is their brevity. Please go into more detail guys. Some of your replies go over my head, mostly through lack of explanation.

You sir, are my favourite!

[carryfast]

Evil8Beezle:

Radar19:
What happens when we do finally leave and stop the endless flow of cheap labour from Eastern Europe? What happens to haulage firms who relied on that cheap labour?

Who cares?
IF demand for drivers rises, move on to where the money is…

The problem with that idea is that the issues of artificially limited productivety and unfair taxation of road fuel will remain.The result probably being even more shift in road freight to rail rather than any big improvement in wages.With more drivers then looking for the less fuel use critical distribution sector work left.On that note as I said we’ve already got Dolph’s example which suggests that East Euro immigrant labour isn’t the whole story in that regard.With the issue of better quality work,which is gradually being eroded by the political climate v the local/distribution sector zb work that’s left.In which case we’re already heading for a situation in which it’s more about the erosion of the ‘right’ type of work than the immigrant East Euro workforce.In which case they are actually in a better position to deal with that environment by staying at home in their lower cost of living domestic environment where lower wages being used to compensate for high fuel costs and artificially limited productivety are more sustainable.At which point the issue of cabotage then becomes more important than immigration.Especially in what remains of the container haulage and trunking sectors.

Which probably explains why the train drivers’ unions were all for Leave against Labour Party policy.

[carryfast]

kr79:

Carryfast:
The Guardian.That bastion of the pro road transport cause.

More like hypocritical bunch of socalist zb wits.Who are big on statements like LHV’s are damaging but obviously not so good on facts to explain how/why.Then,just as expected,they say it would make road transport more competitive with rail which is their real bs problem.

theguardian.com/environment/ … oad-trains

On that note if truck driving is to be given the same status as train driving and made more productive we need a level trading field in the form of the most efficient vehicles possible and fuel cost regime.If not then don’t be surprised when prospective new drivers walk away from the industry because they don’t want to be lumbered with the typical zb distribution sector type work that’s left at any wage,let alone minimum wage.While on that note spare us from such hypocritical utter zb.

Did you bother to read the article?

Yes.

Especially bits like ‘Monsters’ and reference to them not being ‘suitable’ to our roads when they’ve not even been trialled here.While in places where they have been the facts suggest that they’ll generally go wherever a standard artic will go.Just as the Scandinavians have known for decades.

Together with the same old bollox about protecting the rail freight sector.

[swedish_blue]

The UK Haulage Industry in a Nutshell?

It is broke, with a capital F

[rjan]

James the cat:
Do you two live together? Or are you Siamese twins? You both seem to come as a twin set.

We suffer from the narcissism of minor differences.

[carryfast]

muckles:
But how many people who are driving trucks are really cut out to be drivers or have just fallen into it because of the lack of apprenticeships in other industries, and given the chance would be happier and maybe better at another job?

It’s a good question.But I can only go by the irony of my father having gone against the wishes of his father to follow him into the road transport industry,to work in engineering and me then doing exactly the opposite.When I knew that there was probably no contest regards hourly wage rates.Although the gap was a lot less back in the 1970’s because there were a lot more people around then with a background in the manufacturing industries and who were familiar and well conditioned to the factory work regime and environment.

Having said that I do feel that a lot of the moaning we see now is because of the justified backlash against the ‘type of work’ on offer within the industry rather,if not more,than just the wage issue.While looking back that’s certainly my view of the industry.As I’ve said much of that lack of opportunity owing to political reasons.Certainly to the point where I feel that I’d have had much better opportunities in the job if I’d been born in Australia/NZ/US/Canada or possibly even many European countries,rather than the UK.

[rjan]

Carryfast:
Why do we need an immigrant workforce at all when you’re saying that there supposedly isn’t even enough work for the ‘existing’ combined road and rail work force within the transport market as it stands.

I never said we did need immigration in haulage (nor agriculture), although undoubtedly we do now need it in healthcare and probably a few other professions (because of a lack of strategic workforce planning).

We already know that even STGO type lengths,let alone the current generation of LHV’s,can work just fine within the existing road design network.

It will work fine for parts of the road network. But they are really just a faster horse - they can obviously never become as long as a train.

Road fuel duty has nothing whatsoever to do with road costs.Road transport having been proven to be more than paying its way through VED alone in that regard.

I don’t believe for one moment that road hauliers pay for the entirety of the road network, and then some, together with all the rest of the costs associated with road haulage, purely through VED. Road hauliers don’t even pay for training, whereas train drivers get paid to learn more than some truckers earn doing the job.

Perhaps road haulage operators pay more than the marginal cost of the wear they impose on the tarmac, but that is not the entire cost of the maintenance and incremental extension of the road network.

The fact is road transport is just more cost efficient regards its running needs than rail.Deal with it.

Is it? My impression has always been that road transport is less efficient for base loads, but it’s paid for by the cheapness of truckers’ wages versus railwaymen.

As I said we can’t have a highly unionised,high wage rail type road transport industry without bringing productivety levels and fuel costs more into line with rail type levels.Which in this case means LHV’s and use of red diesel.

We can’t have rail levels of productivity without travelling on rails! That’s the nub of it. Road haulage can never compete with rail on those terms, once the difference in wages and conditions is redressed (which would more than counter any benefit of using red diesel) - it competes on the basis of flexibility of scheduling and it’s almost 100% access to premises.

Yes truck drivers are by definition different to train drivers because they drive a truck not a train. Feel free to go on trying to justify treating truck drivers as second class workers v train drivers on that basis.While at the same time hypocritically doing as the Guardian is trying to do in kicking the industry for being put in that position by that same pro rail lobby.

I’m not justifying treating truckers as second class workers - they are, as a matter of fact, treated as second class compared to railwaymen, and that is because they do not stand together to demand first class treatment.

I’m also saying that we can’t have truckers thinking they are entitled to cannibalise the work to which other modes are better suited. It’s like gas engineers arguing that all our electricity should be generated with gas instead of nuclear - in fact each has its proper place.