Heard a news report on the radio this morning about a self employed window salesman who had worked at the same company for 13 years and went to court to try to get the parent company to pay for his annual leave. In a landmark ruling the court not only found in his favour but also ordered the company to pay his last 13 years leave back pay too. This is thought to be in excess of £20k.
Could this be the final killing blow that may finish off these parasitic agencies in haulage or perhaps force the hands of these massive Co’s such as XPO/DHL/Stobbies that rely massively on agency zero hours workers?
Some agency guys where I work have been there for over 15 years! Squeaky bum time for some methinks.
the maoster:
Heard a news report on the radio this morning about a self employed window salesman who had worked at the same company for 13 years and went to court to try to get the parent company to pay for his annual leave. In a landmark ruling the court not only found in his favour but also ordered the company to pay his last 13 years leave back pay too. This is thought to be in excess of £20k.
Could this be the final killing blow that may finish off these parasitic agencies in haulage or perhaps force the hands of these massive Co’s such as XPO/DHL/Stobbies that rely massively on agency zero hours workers?
Some agency guys where I work have been there for over 15 years! Squeaky bum time for some methinks.
Isn’t there a ruling going through at the moment regarding agencies pushing Ltd and umbrella,making it illegal unless the individual is legitimately self employed, due to the lack of worker benefits they are entitled to and not receiving
Not too sure mate tbh. The cynic in me however suspects that someone high up in the corridors of power is desperately trying to kill the monster that Whitehall created in the pursuit of cheap labour once it dawned on them that massive tax revenues being lost was the upshot of it.
From what you wrote, didnt the window salesman take the company he worked for to court? So in our industry wouldnt the agency bod take his agency to court?
My very limited understanding of agency works is that if you are an employee of the agency you are entitled to holiday pay?
If you are a ‘self employed’ agency then you arent entitled to anything but get paid a quid or two an hour more? Cant see how in this instance you would have a leg to stand on trying to take someone to court
So the salesman gets his £20k (less 20%) and then HMRC comes down on him for all the back tax and NI they say he owes them since he was not self-employed.
paul1181:
From what you wrote, didnt the window salesman take the company he worked for to court? So in our industry wouldnt the agency bod take his agency to court?
My very limited understanding of agency works is that if you are an employee of the agency you are entitled to holiday pay?
If you are a ‘self employed’ agency then you arent entitled to anything but get paid a quid or two an hour more? Cant see how in this instance you would have a leg to stand on trying to take someone to court
Just because you set up as Self Employed doesn’t mean you are Self Employed in the eyes of the law or HMRC,
If you look like you’re employed, the people you work for treat you like an employee, (except for the benefits) then you’re an employee.
All these “gig” economy ways of working are under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that the companies that use these methods of employment are losing more than they’re winning.
paul1181:
From what you wrote, didnt the window salesman take the company he worked for to court? So in our industry wouldnt the agency bod take his agency to court?
My very limited understanding of agency works is that if you are an employee of the agency you are entitled to holiday pay?
If you are a ‘self employed’ agency then you arent entitled to anything but get paid a quid or two an hour more? Cant see how in this instance you would have a leg to stand on trying to take someone to court
Just because you set up as Self Employed doesn’t mean you are Self Employed in the eyes of the law or HMRC,
If you look like you’re employed, the people you work for treat you like an employee, (except for the benefits) then you’re an employee.
All these “gig” economy ways of working are under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that the companies that use these methods of employment are losing more than they’re winning.
If you are self employed you can be a freelance driver, and work for any haulage company you like, directly as a sub contracted driver, you bill the company directly and everything is legal and above board.
If you are “self employed” but working through an agency you are being tendered out, and working through a second party, who charge the client a small percentage on top of what they charge the client on your behalf, the agency allocate work for you so you are their employee not contractor.
paul1181:
From what you wrote, didnt the window salesman take the company he worked for to court? So in our industry wouldnt the agency bod take his agency to court?
My very limited understanding of agency works is that if you are an employee of the agency you are entitled to holiday pay?
If you are a ‘self employed’ agency then you arent entitled to anything but get paid a quid or two an hour more? Cant see how in this instance you would have a leg to stand on trying to take someone to court
Just because you set up as Self Employed doesn’t mean you are Self Employed in the eyes of the law or HMRC,
If you look like you’re employed, the people you work for treat you like an employee, (except for the benefits) then you’re an employee.
All these “gig” economy ways of working are under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that the companies that use these methods of employment are losing more than they’re winning.
If you are self employed you can be a freelance driver, and work for any haulage company you like, directly as a sub contracted driver, you bill the company directly and everything is legal and above board.
If you are “self employed” but working through an agency you are being tendered out, and working through a second party, who charge the client a small percentage on top of what they charge the client on your behalf, the agency allocate work for you so you are their employee not contractor.
If youre a freelance driver surely you must have income from more than one source to be classed as self employed? If youre just being paid by one single company then youre an employee.
paul1181:
From what you wrote, didnt the window salesman take the company he worked for to court? So in our industry wouldnt the agency bod take his agency to court?
My very limited understanding of agency works is that if you are an employee of the agency you are entitled to holiday pay?
If you are a ‘self employed’ agency then you arent entitled to anything but get paid a quid or two an hour more? Cant see how in this instance you would have a leg to stand on trying to take someone to court
Just because you set up as Self Employed doesn’t mean you are Self Employed in the eyes of the law or HMRC,
If you look like you’re employed, the people you work for treat you like an employee, (except for the benefits) then you’re an employee.
All these “gig” economy ways of working are under scrutiny at the moment and it seems that the companies that use these methods of employment are losing more than they’re winning.
If you are self employed you can be a freelance driver, and work for any haulage company you like, directly as a sub contracted driver, you bill the company directly and everything is legal and above board.
If you are “self employed” but working through an agency you are being tendered out, and working through a second party, who charge the client a small percentage on top of what they charge the client on your behalf, the agency allocate work for you so you are their employee not contractor.
If youre a freelance driver surely you must have income from more than one source to be classed as self employed? If youre just being paid by one single company then youre an employee.
No you can’t be tied to one company, although you can alternate between companies through availability requirements and of course you have the choice to work for should more than one request come in on a day.
I only put one to try and limit confusion mate.
AndrewG:
If youre a freelance driver surely you must have income from more than one source to be classed as self employed? If youre just being paid by one single company then youre an employee.
No you can’t be tied to one company, although you can alternate between companies through availability requirements and of course you have the choice to work for should more than one request come in on a day.
I only put one to try and limit confusion mate.
With you Tbh ive lost touch with HMRC’s regs, Spains regs through the AEAT can be a minefield to navigate and to complicate it further actually vary from region to region but…self employed is still very similar to the UK…
AndrewG:
If youre a freelance driver surely you must have income from more than one source to be classed as self employed? If youre just being paid by one single company then youre an employee.
No you can’t be tied to one company, although you can alternate between companies through availability requirements and of course you have the choice to work for should more than one request come in on a day.
I only put one to try and limit confusion mate.
With you Tbh ive lost touch with HMRC’s regs, Spains regs through the AEAT can be a minefield to navigate and to complicate it further actually vary from region to region but…self employed is still very similar to the UK…
I went self employed early last year, I started off through an agency as finding clients to take me on without having a foot in the door was nigh impossible, they set me up with some ■■■■■■ set up accountancy firm as they do, after a few assignments I could see I was being ripped off especially from this accountancy firm, I decided I’d contact some of these assignments directly and bin both the agency and accountants off. The only benefit they did for me was to VAT register me.
Was ok for a while, I knew to vary the companies every week or so then after a few months the work started to dry up, and it was the agency informing the clients of a clause in their contracts about poaching drivers and cutting them out. I couldn’t afford not to work and I decided to bin it off completely.
Come the end of my financial year, I had to get another accountant and pay him, file everything with companies house, pay my VAT and then my tax, got it sorted or so I thought and received a bill from the accountants I was set up with for and end of year bill which somewhere along the lines I’d agreed to, another £485 down the ■■■■■■■ for nothing.
Put it down as a bad experience, one I won’t be doing again.
While drivers are receiving work through an agency, even if they worked for a different client each day of the week, they are still employed by the agency not the clients and are therefore employed not self employed.
Pretty sure you can still be self-employed even if you only work for one company. It boils down to whether you are free to choose when/how the work is done, whether you supply any tools/equipment, if you are free to delegate the work to A N Other should you choose, and whether you are responsible for rectifying mistakes etc in your own time.
Roymondo:
Pretty sure you can still be self-employed even if you only work for one company. It boils down to whether you are free to choose when/how the work is done, whether you supply any tools/equipment, if you are free to delegate the work to A N Other should you choose, and whether you are responsible for rectifying mistakes etc in your own time.
Yep it pretty much depends on your relationship with the person you’re working for, and you can still be considered PAYE if you work for more than one person.
HMRC guidelines.
Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:
they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
they can hire someone else to do the work
they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
they can work for more than one client
Roymondo:
Pretty sure you can still be self-employed even if you only work for one company. It boils down to whether you are free to choose when/how the work is done, whether you supply any tools/equipment, if you are free to delegate the work to A N Other should you choose, and whether you are responsible for rectifying mistakes etc in your own time.
Yes you need to be able to choose the hours you are available to work and not be told the hours you will work, as for delegation of work not sure how that works as I was self employed as a freelance driver not an employer, I could give a client the number of another driver if they needed one, but most if not all transport offices have a book of numbers they can call.
Not sure if this has any truth behind it but there was a rumour about self employed drivers requiring an O Licence as of this year
Isn’t all this under review by HMRC?
A follow on from the clamp on LTD drivers .
I know various reviews have taken place over self employed working at one company and one site .
They want more of the tax money and the NI contributions .
P Stoff:
I think this is a cunning trick to frighten small operators from going down the self employed driver route.
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I think they want to discourage the trend and if a haulier thinks they can make all their drivers Self Employed then the HMRC are correct to crack down on it, but there are hauliers who have that person who comes in to do the odd run, cover a holiday etc, they might have another line of work where they’re self employed and can drop and pick up, such as sculptor or poet.
Tbh ive lost touch with HMRC’s regs, Spains regs through the AEAT can be a minefield to navigate and to complicate it further actually vary from region to region but…self employed is still very similar to the UK…