The Great Blind Spot Debate - T&D needs your ranting!

Mornin’ all!

I’m doing a feature for T&D on wagon blindspots, but rather than just rehashing all the usual gumph about accident stats and the latest innovations, I’d like to try and set away a bit of a debate…You can either post your thoughts here, by PM, or email me ( lucy@truck.net ), whichever way you like so long as you’re aware your ranting and raving may well end up getting published, and if you have a particularly strong view I might get in touch directly and ask you to expand on it! :grimacing: :grimacing: :grimacing:

So…The way I - and I know many others - look on it is this… Industry, H&S, manufacturing and enforcement types seem to think the best way to cure a blind spot problem is to bolt something to the outside of the truck that shows you what’s in the blind spot, be that a mirror, a camera, a sensor, whatever. This produces two problems as a direct consequence:

  1. For every new mirror, camera or gadget fitted, a new blind spot is created behind it.

  2. The driver comes ever closer to the point at which they become so overloaded with incoming information they can no longer effectively take in any of it - let’s face it, current standard mirrors alone present you with 6 different things to look at, without adding any more.

So what do we do? Accept there will always be some blind spots and educate drivers and the public accordingly? Allow the Powers-That-Be to continue bolting distractions around the place ad infinitum? Solve the problem in another way entirely?

Discuss. :smiling_imp: :stuck_out_tongue: :sunglasses:

Take a look at the recent fatalities:

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Alan Neve was uninsured, had toilet rolls stacked against his windscreen, had no licence and had jumped a red light.

The lorry driver who killed Catrona Patel was drunk and fiddling with a mobile phone. He had been banned from driving 20 (twenty) times.

The lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns had faulty eyesight (the police didn’t even bother to discover this until the same driver killed another woman.)

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling turned across his path.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Svetlana Tereschenko was in an unsafe lorry, failing to indicate and chatting on a mobile. The police decided to charge him with…nothing.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Deep Lee failed to notice her and smashed into her from behind.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Andrew McNicoll failed to notice him and side swiped him.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Daniel Cox was in a truck which did not have the correct mirrors and whose driver had pulled into the ASL on a red light and was indicating in the opposite direction to which he turned.

The lorry driver who killed Janina Gehlau had just overtaken her in the cycle lane then turned left without checking at the lights then screamed “You stupid girl!” at her then lied to the police that the light was green.

How can someone who has been banned from driving twenty times or who has no licence or insurance get a job driving an HGV?

roaduser66:
Take a look at the recent fatalities:

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Alan Neve was uninsured, had toilet rolls stacked against his windscreen, had no licence and had jumped a red light.

The lorry driver who killed Catrona Patel was drunk and fiddling with a mobile phone. He had been banned from driving 20 (twenty) times.

The lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns had faulty eyesight (the police didn’t even bother to discover this until the same driver killed another woman.)

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling turned across his path.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Svetlana Tereschenko was in an unsafe lorry, failing to indicate and chatting on a mobile. The police decided to charge him with…nothing.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Deep Lee failed to notice her and smashed into her from behind.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Andrew McNicoll failed to notice him and side swiped him.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Daniel Cox was in a truck which did not have the correct mirrors and whose driver had pulled into the ASL on a red light and was indicating in the opposite direction to which he turned.

The lorry driver who killed Janina Gehlau had just overtaken her in the cycle lane then turned left without checking at the lights then screamed “You stupid girl!” at her then lied to the police that the light was green.

How can someone who has been banned from driving twenty times or who has no licence or insurance get a job driving an HGV?

Fabulous stuff - and I bet every one will be added to the “blind spot accident” statistics! Where did you get the info roaduser66? PM if you’d prefer - I don’t need to reveal your source in print but I do need to have checked it for the coverage of my own arse.

Alan Neve:

standard.co.uk/news/crime/ki … 50978.html

Catriona Patel:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article … phone.html

Eilidh Cairns:

road.cc/content/news/47057-eilid … y-fatality

Svetlana Tereschenko:

road.cc/content/news/57677-bow-r … ys-coroner

Brian Dorling:

aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c … n-dorling/

Deep Lee:

thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cy … 336152.ece

Daniel Cox:

thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/20 … l-cox.html

Ta. I gather you’re not a truck driver roaduser66?

roaduser66:
Take a look at the recent fatalities:

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Alan Neve was uninsured, had toilet rolls stacked against his windscreen, had no licence and had jumped a red light.

The lorry driver who killed Catrona Patel was drunk and fiddling with a mobile phone. He had been banned from driving 20 (twenty) times.

The lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns had faulty eyesight (the police didn’t even bother to discover this until the same driver killed another woman.)

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling turned across his path.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Svetlana Tereschenko was in an unsafe lorry, failing to indicate and chatting on a mobile. The police decided to charge him with…nothing.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Deep Lee failed to notice her and smashed into her from behind.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Andrew McNicoll failed to notice him and side swiped him.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Daniel Cox was in a truck which did not have the correct mirrors and whose driver had pulled into the ASL on a red light and was indicating in the opposite direction to which he turned.

The lorry driver who killed Janina Gehlau had just overtaken her in the cycle lane then turned left without checking at the lights then screamed “You stupid girl!” at her then lied to the police that the light was green.

How can someone who has been banned from driving twenty times or who has no licence or insurance get a job driving an HGV?

We are actually talking about the issue of blind spots and what can be done about them going off on tangent listing peoples names and yes they were killed by trucks. I think the op is look for something more constructive

alix776:
We are actually talking about the issue of blind spots and what can be done about them going off on tangent listing peoples names and yes they were killed by trucks. I think the op is look for something more constructive

although roaduser66’s rant does demonstrate that blindspots are far from being the only problem, investing vast amounts of money over many years redesigning vehicles with bus type cabs and even more mirrors may not solve anything, the solution may lie in another direction, like better drivers and better cyclists. A good fully switched-on driver is never going to kill or injure a traffic-wise cyclist.

I do quite a bit of city centre driving (Oxford) and my truck has no “cycle friendly” gear attached to it and nor have I done a cyclist awareness type course. I have had no problems with cyclists, if they do pass on the nearside at a set of traffic lights I let them get on with it. I’ve had several gestures of thanks for staying behind them or passing them with a wide berth. There are those who jump red lights but I expect them too so I tend to be prepared for one.

Here goes nothing.

In a modern lorry there is no blind spot beside the vehicle, save the area directly behind the vehicle and those areas behind the main mirrors, the auxilliary down mirrors tend to be in places that don’t cause a problem.

Now then, main mirrors, we all know there are some serious failings here by makers, i’ll name Volvo (on previous model FM/FH), MAN current and Mercedes current in particular, and possibly next Scania if the pics i’ve seen are anything to go by and probably others, did they all employ the same redundant bedroom fitter who happened to have a job lot of wardrobe mirrors in his shed left over from his previous career so nailed thousands of the things up right in the drivers line of sight?

They are all bad designs, fairly decent mirrors it must be said but the housings are poor in that they add to the blind areas with useless plastic oversized mouldings, and they could easily all have left a gap in between the two mirrors to give the drive a bit of chance of seeing through…as other makers have done.
The much maligned T45 Roadtrain was a good bit of design in this respect, you do not need such a massive mirror on the drivers side because the mirror is obviously closer to the driver, win win in both vision and lesser blind spot.

Too many of the current designs have the front ‘down’ mirror in an unswept part of the screen too which is a very poor effort…what happened to the three wiper designs we used to have that would clear more screen, not fashionable?

Next thing, behind the passenger side windows, these are very necessary and should be fitted and it should be compulsory they are clear and not have curtains pulled across or other tat in the way…and on the subject of curtains, why do some of the tasselled curtain crew still hide behind anything from 30/60% of the curtain pulled across their own and the passenger side window? what is that all about.

My pet hate, poorly set and maintained mirrors and filthy windows and mirrors.

If the mirrors are set properly then each one will cover at least part of the area of the next one.
The main mirror is not for bird spotting, it needs to cover the side of the vehicle only to rear of body roof height, with most convex mirrors on an artic that will bring vision right down to in front of the drive axle.
The wide angle mirror whether above or below it should cover from about quarter way up the body and set as far out as possible so that it becomes your main blind spot mirror, that will cover a long way out and from the mid body right down to the back of the front steer wheel…that is the most important cyclist/pedestrian mirror on the vehicle.
The side down mirror should be set as wide as possible, that will cover from the edge of the door out about 6 to 8ft and from the second steer (if fitted) to about 3 ft in front of the cab.
The front down mirror again should be set far out, that will cover out about 3 ft from the front of the cab, about 3 ft out the n/s and the front drivers side corner.
All mirrors are overlapping each other like this.

It might seem pedantic stating this but some of the vehicles i get in i’m amazed the previous driver got them back at all without mishap, both n/s mirrors set for a combination of bird watching and a lovely view of the trailer, the side down mirror set to read the door signwriting…that mirror often enough seized in place…and the front down mirror useful for well nothing, and any combination of those.
Thats if you can see through the layers of grime mud salt and general filth coating the windows both sides, and the mirrors to boot.

Lastly we come to the person behind the wheel, it doesn’t take a genius to work out the people who steer vehicles in this condition arn’t bothered one way or another, if they were people who took a pride in their work the vehicles wouldn’t get this in the first place.

Dumbing the job down with electronics hasn’t helped our industry at all, if you dumb a job whatever the job is it attracts dummies and dummies do what dummies do whatever automation is fitted to stop them doing their worst, the only people who benefit from dumbing down are operators who pile it high and sell it cheap, it doesn’t attract the quality staff who want to take a pride in their work, its just another part of Britains race to the bottom where cheapest is king.

Why for example has the commercial test been dumbed down, aiding and abetting the decline from the start.
Controlled stop, gearchanging exercise both gone and the last brilliant one auto pass gets a manual ticket, good one chaps, but lots of box ticking to replace that hands on feel which a skilled examiner could judge on test, you couldn’t make it up.

There needs to be a complete rethink of our transport, deskilling and going for cheapest is not working, its obvious that its all aimed at eventual automation but we all know that’s generations away, if it will ever be suitable for Britain at all given in 50 years it’ll be standing room only.

In the meantime, those companies paying well (for normal working hours) with proper jobs which people would be sorry to lose don’t tend to have these problems for obvious reasons, and on the subject of hours it’s no longer bloody 1963, people should not be rushing round like a scalded cat or working 75 hour weeks to keep some pile it high and sell it cheap wide boys in business.

Mirror adjustment is key to reducing blindspots, and in particular the wide angle nearside mirror. Who needs to see half the cab in a mirror, or the sky.

I wonder how many ever take the time to check the adjustment of their mirrors? The number of vehicles I have driven have their mirrors so badly adjusted, prior to me adjusting then, that either I sit in a very abnormal position, or previous users of the vehicle do/don’t bother adjusting them. I think I know the answer.

That video which shows the ‘hidden cyclists’, whilst there is some credence to it, just highlights the need for the wide angle mirror to be adjusted correctly.

As you do, or maybe not, I have spent a bit of time whilst sitting on bays, just looking in mirrors to see exactly what I could and couldn’t see; some may say I’m sad!

The only improvement that could be made in my opinion is to have a fesnel lens on the nearside door window.

Martin

the country needs trucks whether it likes them or not…the country does not need cyclists with no training,no insurance and in several obvous cases, no gumption…instead of spending the money on a go pro headcam ,attitude problem training and lycra codflaps,why not make them be trained,insured and fit for beng a road user if we must have to suffer them in the 1st place. the roads are strangled as t is without accomodaing the minority.

Here’s one that never seems to get mentioned and that is the fact that by trying to address blind spots they create even worse ones.

MAN and Volvo redesigned their mirrors to help reduce blind spots. What resulted was a mirror which when approaching a roundabout or junction say as you’re coming down a motorway sliproad, is large enough that it can hide a car approaching from the right. If the approaching speeds of both vehicles are just right the first time you’re aware of that car approaching from the right is when you pull out from the give way line and find it in front of you. This has happened several times.

Then there is the fact that at some point the third party has to take some responsibility for their own safety by not deliberately placing themselves in dangerous positions to try and get past the lorry in order to “beat the truck”. That in my opinion is actually the biggest cause of blind spot accidents but as lots of people see nothing wrong with doing something like scooting your bike down the inside of a lorry in a gap so small you’re tilting your bike on a 45 degree angle, witnesses never mention it.

Smart Mart:
That video which shows the ‘hidden cyclists’, whilst there is some credence to it, just highlights the need for the wide angle mirror to be adjusted correctly.

It was adjusted correctly, all the mirrors were, that was the point. You’re wanting to change the laws of physics by having light bend round a corner.

The only improvement that could be made in my opinion is to have a fesnel lens on the nearside door window.

This only covers a certain area itself and itself can lead to problems as the driver cannot see clearly out of the nearside window and certainly cannot judge distances using a fresnel lense.

Neither of those points address the fact that the driver is a human being, only has two eyes both of which point in the same direction and at some point is actually going to have to look at where they’re going. You cannot carry out a manoeuvre spending 100% of the time looking in blindspot mirrors.

Conor:

Smart Mart:
That video which shows the ‘hidden cyclists’, whilst there is some credence to it, just highlights the need for the wide angle mirror to be adjusted correctly.

It was adjusted correctly, all the mirrors were, that was the point. You’re wanting to change the laws of physics by having light bend round a corner.

The only improvement that could be made in my opinion is to have a fesnel lens on the nearside door window.

This only covers a certain area itself and itself can lead to problems as the driver cannot see clearly out of the nearside window and certainly cannot judge distances using a fresnel lense.

Neither of those points address the fact that the driver is a human being, only has two eyes both of which point in the same direction and at some point is actually going to have to look at where they’re going. You cannot carry out a manoeuvre spending 100% of the time looking in blindspot mirrors.

I think you will find that you could see half of the cab in the mirror. Well half of te mirror was taken up by cab, unnecessarily, and if you think that the mirror was adjusted correctly, I have to wonder, I’m afraid.

Martin

Muckaway:
I do quite a bit of city centre driving (Oxford) and my truck has no “cycle friendly” gear attached to it and nor have I done a cyclist awareness type course. I have had no problems with cyclists, if they do pass on the nearside at a set of traffic lights I let them get on with it. I’ve had several gestures of thanks for staying behind them or passing them with a wide berth. There are those who jump red lights but I expect them too so I tend to be prepared for one.

The country needs more drivers with your attitude.
Blind spots are not a problem to an alert driver.
Far too many use the word blind spot to cover up their poor driving.
If you drive a lorry which has a blind spot it is your responsibility to make sure there is nothing in it.

roaduser66:
Take a look at the recent fatalities

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Alan Neve was uninsured, had toilet rolls stacked against his windscreen, had no licence and had jumped a red light.

The lorry driver who killed Catrona Patel was drunk and fiddling with a mobile phone. He had been banned from driving 20 (twenty) times.

The lorry driver who killed Eilidh Cairns had faulty eyesight (the police didn’t even bother to discover this until the same driver killed another woman.)

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Brian Dorling turned across his path.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Svetlana Tereschenko was in an unsafe lorry, failing to indicate and chatting on a mobile. The police decided to charge him with…nothing.

The lorry driver who killed cyclist Deep Lee failed to notice her and smashed into her from behind.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Andrew McNicoll failed to notice him and side swiped him.

The lorry driver that killed cyclist Daniel Cox was in a truck which did not have the correct mirrors and whose driver had pulled into the ASL on a red light and was indicating in the opposite direction to which he turned.

The lorry driver who killed Janina Gehlau had just overtaken her in the cycle lane then turned left without checking at the lights then screamed “You stupid girl!” at her then lied to the police that the light was green.

How can someone who has been banned from driving twenty times or who has no licence or insurance get a job driving an HGV?

I drive through London in the night, and the number of cyclists without lights is crazy, so its not only stupid drivers!

As long as i look into a Mirror or Monitor i dont have the Road in Sight.
Aircline and Vessel have it easier. The Gov directs smaller Planes or Boats away from the Big. On the Road is it the other Way,which just cant work.

You can redesign mirrors and trucks all they can but what you can’t design in is incompetence stupidity and plain idiocy of other road users,wether it be car bike scooter etc,
Ok it might take me 10 minutes in the morning to clean and adjust the mirrors but it has to be done the state some are in when I get in is beyond a joke tbh.

Firstly bearing in mind that we happily managed to run eight wheeler drawbar outfits with relatively tiny mirrors in a world with plenty of cyclists.I’d say what we’ve got in terms of mirrors is as good as it gets. ‘But’ full width cabs should be made mandatory because there’s not much point in bolting bleedin great tv screen mirrors to the wagon if a large part of the view they can potentially provide is then wiped out by the truck body relative to a narrow cab.

As for the rest no amount of mirrors and tv etc will make the slightest difference, to the type of zbwit thinking among cyclists,who are on a crusade to use their own vulnerability,to create their aim of putting road traffic off the road, preferably by jailing every driver. :imp: :unamused:

Most of my hgv driving has been in 8 wheelers round London.
If your mirrors are correctly adjusted you have no blind spots on the nearside which is where most of the problems have occurred.
Muckaway is right the best way is just to plod on and let the cyclists get on with it.
The problem s to many drivers thinking they have a god given right to be there as do to many cyclists while thinking they are Bradley Wiggins not going to the shops.
It’s a culture problem in London as everyone thinks they are more important than anyone else.