The government must abandon the fuel duty escalator now

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
81

Wheel Nut:

karl2878:
the poles dont work the same as us on round trip basis as there are that many fighting for the work 9 timesout of ten they dont have back loads there tanks are brimmed on entry to the uk then the lucky ones get back loads to poland or germany the others undercut the uk hauliers do acouple of uk jobs then they will sit at the elf in calais standard tanks =12-1400 liters they can do a 1000 kms and be back in calais on half tanks just under no problem
and to be honest im prepared to do what it takes so the brit hauliers get what they deserve i dont have to justify myself to you or enyone else i dont talk s**t i comment and talk what i no are facts i herd this was a good site but must just be a site for the b/s brigade talk the talk but more chance of plattin fog of them walking the walk

There are too many trucks on the road chasing too little profitable work, containers have killed general haulage and the shippers have found cheaper transport, much like the Dutch and German shippers did many years ago by using British hauliers.

I also agreed that it would take 25 years to build a realistic freight infrastructure on the railways.

But the fact remains that whatever the (arguable) present state of rail freight infrastructure may or may not be it’s government policy to increase/protect rail freight capacity and rail intermodal market share now not in 25 years time and it’s a fact that one of the methods it’s using to do so is by reliance on continuing increases in road fuel taxation,which it introduced years ago,for that very reason long before any of us were even driving anything.

If Brit hauliers really want to stick together to do something about that issue it’s a bit late now and just whingeing about foreign hauliers and so called over capacity in the road transport industry seems to totally miss the point,in the context of a government rigged fuel taxation policy in favour of one mode of transport (rail freight) over another (road transport) and considering that rail freight sees the need to increase capacity not decrease it.

82

Hauliers urged to sign the FairFuelUK petition before its too late
roadtransport.com/Articles/2 … o-late.htm

83

Rikki-UK:
Hauliers urged to sign the FairFuelUK petition before its too late
roadtransport.com/Articles/2 … o-late.htm

Blimey does Quentin Wilson really believe all that himself. :open_mouth: :unamused: :confused:

It’s only the total removal of all road fuel duty and reduction in VAT to 5% that would make any real difference and I’ll believe that Quentin Wilson,the FTA and the RHA will support that idea when I see it let alone it’s acceptance and implementation by the government. :imp:

84

wheel nut in not here to trade insults with you mate im not that kind of person i have a view rite or wrong that trucks uk or european should pay by the day like holland and belgium cars for me dan carry on paying road tax as they are there is money to be made from this kind of scheme and its this extra money that can bring our fuel down to the avrage in europe
or we could give uk trucks a lower rate of road tax and still charge the europeans per day either way they do need to pay something lets be honest ok so we get the price hike stopped its still way to high and it aint going to make that much of a diffrence to us
carryfast the day of the trains has been and gone mate yes they may try and keep the greens happy by doing it but we dont have the room or the tracks as most got ripped up in the 90s and the state of repair well we aint got the time or money for there to be any iminent threat to trucks you’ed have more chance of reopening manchester and salford docks

85

karl2878:
carryfast the day of the trains has been and gone mate yes they may try and keep the greens happy by doing it but we dont have the room or the tracks as most got ripped up in the 90s and the state of repair well we aint got the time or money for there to be any iminent threat to trucks you’ed have more chance of reopening manchester and salford docks

:unamused: :unamused:

Don’t know what planet you’re on but it’s time to wake up and smell the coffee.

eurotunnelgroup.com/uploaded … ervice.pdf

86

Sorry Carryfast you are wrong about the railways. The past 50 or so years has seen the systematic dismantling of the railways this will need alot of undoing to even begin to have any real impact on freight haulage…
In the 80’s I read in a respected railway mag of a railway manager BOASTING about driving (I think it was) breakfast cereal onto the roads.
Governments, Unions and Managers have all got to take their share of blame for this situation.
eg The 1958 (I think) ASLEF strike lost fish traffic. Just after “King Arthur’s” year long strike supported by railway union leaders, for some years there was alot of coal going to Cottam and High Marnham by road.
Government interference caused the East Coast Mainline electrification to be done on the cheap (With the regular failures of the system)
The Lincoln High Level line was closed and ripped up now freight on the ECML is being diverted BACK through Lincoln to make way for more passenger trains, but with no high level line the city will be choked up by the level crossings.
A book to read is “The Great Railway Conspiracy” by Christian Woolmar, makes interesting reading.
The Government is still micro managing the railways even now even though it is supposed to be privatised…
Apart from a couple of projects (CrossRail and HS2) The only money being spent is what the Government is forced to and in the main to make way for more passenger trains.
To get freight onto the railways there has to be some carrot and not just stick.
Also the passenger side of the railways is so successful that the old B.R. trick of regulating demand by raising faires is raising its head again instead of spending money to increase capacity.
I signed the petition because I feel Britain as a whole is being sold short by our Government (Both Parties) in collusion with Brussels

87

karl2878:
wheel nut in not here to trade insults with you mate im not that kind of person i have a view rite or wrong that trucks uk or european should pay by the day like holland and belgium cars for me dan carry on paying road tax as they are there is money to be made from this kind of scheme and its this extra money that can bring our fuel down to the avrage in europe

Karl. In principle I agree, but it wont happen by us ranting on a forum, yet the rail freight industry will never take over as Carryfast often suggests.

Even if the cost of rail freight was cut to zero, the physical size of tunnels, bridges and rolling stock would prevent it happening. Look at Dollands Moor which he linked to, until the whole country is operated on the Bern Gauge, We cannot carry a JCB 3CX in a tilt, We generally cannot carry a 9’ 6’’ box through the tunnel, We certainly cannot carry a wide or out of profile load.

88

Wheel Nut:

karl2878:
wheel nut in not here to trade insults with you mate im not that kind of person i have a view rite or wrong that trucks uk or european should pay by the day like holland and belgium cars for me dan carry on paying road tax as they are there is money to be made from this kind of scheme and its this extra money that can bring our fuel down to the avrage in europe

Karl. In principle I agree, but it wont happen by us ranting on a forum, yet the rail freight industry will never take over as Carryfast often suggests.

Even if the cost of rail freight was cut to zero, the physical size of tunnels, bridges and rolling stock would prevent it happening. Look at Dollands Moor which he linked to, until the whole country is operated on the Bern Gauge, We cannot carry a JCB 3CX in a tilt, We generally cannot carry a 9’ 6’’ box through the tunnel, We certainly cannot carry a wide or out of profile load.

If all of that was correct they would’nt be making a big song and dance about what is an obvious plan to massively grow rail freight throughout Europe,to benefit big business privatised rail operations,based on a bs environmental argument.

The contradictions,of reducing road transport capacity and keeping road transport taxation levels high and keeping it’s efficiency low by limiting the size and running speeds of trucks to unrealistic levels,while at the same time government and rail freight management is planning massive growth based on low taxation and unfair competition with road transport,remains.

If you’re right then can we take it that the total removal of road fuel duty and reduction in VAT rates, together with increases in truck gross weights to 60 tonnes + and running speeds to 60 mph,would be met by no protests whatsoever by the rail freight lot and if not why not :question: :question: . :unamused: :unamused: :imp:

89

G8YMW:
Sorry Carryfast you are wrong about the railways. The past 50 or so years has seen the systematic dismantling of the railways this will need alot of undoing to even begin to have any real impact on freight haulage…
In the 80’s I read in a respected railway mag of a railway manager BOASTING about driving (I think it was) breakfast cereal onto the roads.
Governments, Unions and Managers have all got to take their share of blame for this situation.
eg The 1958 (I think) ASLEF strike lost fish traffic. Just after “King Arthur’s” year long strike supported by railway union leaders, for some years there was alot of coal going to Cottam and High Marnham by road.
Government interference caused the East Coast Mainline electrification to be done on the cheap (With the regular failures of the system)
The Lincoln High Level line was closed and ripped up now freight on the ECML is being diverted BACK through Lincoln to make way for more passenger trains, but with no high level line the city will be choked up by the level crossings.
A book to read is “The Great Railway Conspiracy” by Christian Woolmar, makes interesting reading.
The Government is still micro managing the railways even now even though it is supposed to be privatised…
Apart from a couple of projects (CrossRail and HS2) The only money being spent is what the Government is forced to and in the main to make way for more passenger trains.
To get freight onto the railways there has to be some carrot and not just stick.
Also the passenger side of the railways is so successful that the old B.R. trick of regulating demand by raising faires is raising its head again instead of spending money to increase capacity.
I signed the petition because I feel Britain as a whole is being sold short by our Government (Both Parties) in collusion with Brussels

All of that seems totally irrelevant in the context of the documented plans/proof of the rail freight industry’s intentions in the context of long distance Eurpean freight traffic and the fact is the ‘carrot’ in this case is the unfair advantages which rail freight has been handed in regards to fuel costs and weight/volume/speed restrictions which road transport is subject to.

It’s actually a privatised rail system using the old BR tricks of lobbying the govenment to keep road transport held back in order to protect/increase the rail freight industry’s market share. :imp: :imp:

90

All this holier than thou attitude when it comes to the Poles etc is total hypocracy, anyone who was around during the heyday of the British International Haulier will, if they’re honest, tell you why we did so much of the work, because we were cheaper than everyone else :open_mouth: People were doing Italian round trips for 1500 quid into the mid 90s, the Italians wanted that one way, that’s why we got the bulk of the work :bulb:

Also, mention of the 2000ltrs of diesel ‘they’ carry, lots, not all, but lots of British Hauliers and O/Ds ran belly tanks and used to do round trips to Italy/Spain/Portugal/Greece without buying a drop of foreign diesel and that was in the days of the 200ltr limit :open_mouth:

So quit ■■■■■■■■ and whining, the reason the industry is in the mess it’s in is because it suffers from a guilt complex, we bend over and take every law and regulation thrown at us, we only have to collectively say no, poke it up your arse and TELL them how we want things done and they’d have no choice but to give us what we want, without transport the whole country would grind to a halt in a matter of days, even without panic buying :bulb:

And carryfast my old mate, people like you are the main cause of the problem, with your schemes for doing the job for beer money, you do the industry irrepairable damage, the whole philosophy of doing it cheaper than the next man means that a slight increase in fuel costs and people are talking about a civil uprising, it’s mental, we should just pass the increased cost onto the consumer :bulb:

91

newmercman:
All this holier than thou attitude when it comes to the Poles etc is total hypocracy, anyone who was around during the heyday of the British International Haulier will, if they’re honest, tell you why we did so much of the work, because we were cheaper than everyone else :open_mouth: People were doing Italian round trips for 1500 quid into the mid 90s, the Italians wanted that one way, that’s why we got the bulk of the work :bulb:

Also, mention of the 2000ltrs of diesel ‘they’ carry, lots, not all, but lots of British Hauliers and O/Ds ran belly tanks and used to do round trips to Italy/Spain/Portugal/Greece without buying a drop of foreign diesel and that was in the days of the 200ltr limit :open_mouth:

So quit ■■■■■■■■ and whining, the reason the industry is in the mess it’s in is because it suffers from a guilt complex, we bend over and take every law and regulation thrown at us, we only have to collectively say no, poke it up your arse and TELL them how we want things done and they’d have no choice but to give us what we want, without transport the whole country would grind to a halt in a matter of days, even without panic buying :bulb:

And carryfast my old mate, people like you are the main cause of the problem, with your schemes for doing the job for beer money, you do the industry irrepairable damage, the whole philosophy of doing it cheaper than the next man means that a slight increase in fuel costs and people are talking about a civil uprising, it’s mental, we should just pass the increased cost onto the consumer :bulb:

Don’t blame me I’m an ex union supporter from the 1970’s remember who’s ideas (at that time) were exactly the same as yours when it came to getting more money to pay for those price increases which we had back then.

However the laws of the free market economy and economics (inflation) stopped all that in it’s tracks.The whole philosophy of the free market economy is doing it cheaper than the next man.It’s called competition.

Which is why we can’t pass on those excessive road fuel taxation costs to the customer because,at worse,those,together with our higher wage levels,mean that the load will either go by Polish truck or train or at best the rate increase will just result in higher prices/inflation in the rest of the economy which will more than wipe out the rate increases.

But you’d need to understand and remember the mid 1970’s to know what an inflation rate of 20% + means and we’re at the start of going back to that now unless the government get rid of that zb road fuel tax and cut VAT in general.

92

Im no Bamber Gascoigne as you will realise after reading this ,but just look at what attracts the highest tax,fuel,alcohol and cigaretts.We spend millions of pounds advertising the evils of smoking and drinking,so everyone in the country stops drinking and smoking where does all the money come from whats been gathered through tax.Then weve got the green brigade barking on about the ozone layer being destroyed so they put extra green tax on fuel,indeed Prince Charles was down South America banging on about the rain forests being destroyed then jumped in his private jet and onto his next engagement,no expense spared.So if everyone stopped drinking ,smoking and buying fuel where would we be? Look at how much moneys made from the most disgusting crime of all time ,exceeding 30mph they make millions out of it,nothing to do with road safety,The road fund licence whats all that about? But all this tax dosent go back into making our roads better or public transport more efficent and reliable ,it goes to other things like the NHS.How the hell is the NHS going to survive when there`s people coming into this country without ever paying a penny in tax but quite free to use the NHS.Its not rocket science,how about making Britain not such an attractive place for people to come and live.How about anyone who wants to settle here should have enough money to be self sufficient and use none of our free services for say 10 years until they have put enough into the pot to pay for what they use.And definitely no handouts then maybe we could start reducing tax on fuel and leave the EU and get rid once and for all the Human Rights Law .There said it now back to my padded cell

93

Don’t shut the door to your cell ramone, you make a lot of sense :wink:

94

newmercman:
Don’t shut the door to your cell ramone, you make a lot of sense :wink:

Except the bit about the NHS.It was a cut price health service put in by a Labour government so the unions did’nt ask to pass on the costs of decent insurance for a proper one in their wages like the yanks.

However at that time the (right) idea was to fund it by the high earners (like bankers) paying around 95% income tax.But now those greedy zb’s don’t want to pay up so it all go’s on fuel where we all have to pay the same regardless of how much income we’ve got to pay for it and with the obvious effect on the economy

Then the yanks decided to ship all their jobs out to China so they can’t pay for their health costs either unless they increase their road fuel to around £6 per gallon :bulb: which would probably zb up the US economy and the Canadian road transport industry just like ours and create the same zb health service in the States as we’ve got here. :open_mouth: Unless that is the yanks decide that a Chinese type health service would be even cheaper than ours. :open_mouth: :laughing:

95

The NHS would cost a lot less to run if there wasn’t a huge amount of freeloaders abusing the system and if you only got out if you put in, although it would still be a mess due to far too many chiefs and inefficient government organisation, but that’s what happens when you try to mix capitalism and socialism, it doesn’t work, except maybe in China, where they have a kind of hybrid, although the man on the street or in the sweatshops is bound to disagree with me on that (as will carryfast, but he disagrees with everyone and everything, including himself :laughing: )

Going back a bit, the free market economy that you mentioned carryfast, I agree with you, it will drive things down to the lowest price, but in our case, we’ve allowed ourselves to become a commodity, whereas we provide a service, an invaluable service at that, but through some perceived guilt complex we’ve become spineless, we should never have let it get to that point, but we have, so let’s turn things around, let them put up fuel prices, pretty soon rates will have to go up, they could double and it would have a minimal effect on the cost to the buying public, think about a lorry load of coke, say for simple maths that there are 100 cases to a pallet, 24 cans to a case so that’s 2400 cans a pallet, a 26 pallet load will contain 48000 cans of coke, let’s say the rate used to be 240 quid and it gets doubled to 480, it’s still only a penny per can in transport costs, even if the increase is passed on to the consumer it won’t even get noticed.

Then the government still gets its money from the fuel tax and the transport company still gets their fair share for moving the stuff around, it’s a win win situation :bulb:

96

I will put it in my simple terms cos i dont do complicated,you live in a house with your wife and 2 kids,you both work,you can afford to pay the mortgage and the bills clothe your kids and have a reasonable life,then 1 day its decided you must take in a lodger not only house him f.o.c, you must feed him ,oh and give him spending money,maybe a car , if he cant drive pay for his lessons it doesnt add up and in my little world this is how i see this country theres nothing going in the pot but plenty being taken out thats why our services are failling and thats why we subsidise these services with the things we enjoy and the things we need.Do the likes of China probably the biggest growing economy in the world welcome people with open arms feed,clothe ,pay and give free health care to them,not only do people come come to our country they send some of their unearned cash back home to where they come from,im going for my lobotomy later today then im going into politics!!!

97

newmercman:
The NHS would cost a lot less to run if there wasn’t a huge amount of freeloaders abusing the system and if you only got out if you put in, although it would still be a mess due to far too many chiefs and inefficient government organisation, but that’s what happens when you try to mix capitalism and socialism, it doesn’t work, except maybe in China, where they have a kind of hybrid, although the man on the street or in the sweatshops is bound to disagree with me on that (as will carryfast, but he disagrees with everyone and everything, including himself :laughing: )

Going back a bit, the free market economy that you mentioned carryfast, I agree with you, it will drive things down to the lowest price, but in our case, we’ve allowed ourselves to become a commodity, whereas we provide a service, an invaluable service at that, but through some perceived guilt complex we’ve become spineless, we should never have let it get to that point, but we have, so let’s turn things around, let them put up fuel prices, pretty soon rates will have to go up, they could double and it would have a minimal effect on the cost to the buying public, think about a lorry load of coke, say for simple maths that there are 100 cases to a pallet, 24 cans to a case so that’s 2400 cans a pallet, a 26 pallet load will contain 48000 cans of coke, let’s say the rate used to be 240 quid and it gets doubled to 480, it’s still only a penny per can in transport costs, even if the increase is passed on to the consumer it won’t even get noticed.

Then the government still gets its money from the fuel tax and the transport company still gets their fair share for moving the stuff around, it’s a win win situation :bulb:

But the economy and the road transport industry is’nt just based on the price of transporting coke locally to the supermarket and if it was that important they’d just deliver the stuff to the supermarkets by the tanker load and bottle it there instead of running it around in bottles by the palletload. :bulb:

The issue in this context is the viability of long distance general freight haulage in which the unit costs for transport can be a far higher proportion of the total value of the goods.Which is probably why,with the exception of local supermarket distribution sector,the international long distance haulage sector of the Brit road transport industry is zb’d :question: .

But ‘if’ you’re right then surely if they were to tax road fuel at the same rate in North America as here that would also be better for the American economy too :question: :open_mouth: :unamused: :laughing: and we would’nt have had to use our taxes,to bail out our banks,for the money they lost in the American banking crash,all because the yanks decided to put their own workers on the dole and give their jobs to a load of commies in China instead,leaving the Americans,who once worked in the manufacturing sector,as poor as church mice so they could’nt afford their mortgages (or hospital bills) and if they followed your advice by putting road fuel up to around £6 per gallon that would certainly just make that situation worse,not better,for the economy in general:?: :imp: .

The fact is it does’nt matter how ‘invaluable’ the service we provide might be the demand for it’s services is still dependent,for it’s survival,on the affordability of that service in the context of the economy in general.Therefore if you really want to test your theory then test it in North America first not here but it’s my guess that at £6 per gallon for diesel it’ll be the Brit ex pats who get put out of work first when the North American road transport industry collapses just like the British one already has. :unamused:

98

just amazes me, all these veiws on fuel, road tax, the haulage industry etc, and yet another petition against rissing fuel duty and on it goes, same on every haulage site you look on but did any of you actually look at the various parties policies on fuel or road haulage pre election■■? the obvious answer is no, so why moan now, you all had your chance for a democratic vote, the one and only time you will ever have the chance to influence decisions made on your behalf by government by choosing that government, so for those that didn’t vote at all, you clearly didn’t give a monkies then, so don’t gripe now, those that voted tory, you knew full well you were voting for a party that would expect the low paid to bare the brunt of any economic cuts or tax increases so basically your getting what you wanted!
before anyone starts shouting labour did this and labour did that, there was several choices on the ballot papers if you’d bothered to look.

99

mattcollin:

Wheel Nut:
Unfortunately if the fuel duty and VAT was dropped, the EU would oppose it as unfair competition. Strange but true

I agree with some of your comments above Wheel Nut but are you sure they could oppose it as unfair competition? My understanding is that each member state is in charge of its own fiscal policies and as such the Money-Pit that is Euro-central couldnt do jack about it. Take some of the member states where fuel is significantely cheaper for example…unfair competition? Yeah, but what do we do as a member state who pays in pots of UK tax-payers money…nothing. Even though we are the ones at a disadvantage.

We have probably the most expensive fuel in europe and thats due to the amount of tax thats put on it which is controlled by our goverments not the EU

100

paul b:
just amazes me, all these veiws on fuel, road tax, the haulage industry etc, and yet another petition against rissing fuel duty and on it goes, same on every haulage site you look on but did any of you actually look at the various parties policies on fuel or road haulage pre election■■? the obvious answer is no, so why moan now, you all had your chance for a democratic vote, the one and only time you will ever have the chance to influence decisions made on your behalf by government by choosing that government, so for those that didn’t vote at all, you clearly didn’t give a monkies then, so don’t gripe now, those that voted tory, you knew full well you were voting for a party that would expect the low paid to bare the brunt of any economic cuts or tax increases so basically your getting what you wanted!
before anyone starts shouting labour did this and labour did that, there was several choices on the ballot papers if you’d bothered to look.

Don’t remember any parties standing on a manifesto of ditching road fuel taxation at the last election or any other.

But even if there was there’s no law that says that any party has to honour the promises made prior to an election and MP’s on over £100,000 pa are’nt turkeys who are likely to vote for christmas by transferring the tax burden from indirect taxation to income tax paid at much higher rates than the present ones for high earners and their sympathies are more likely to be directed towards big business air transport and rail freight operations than small road transport operators.