The ethics of reducing one's rest period?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
1

Apologies for the poncy title but couldn’t think of anything better!

So this seems to be one of those topics that divides people so I’m keen to hear what the consensus on here is. Certainly my views have changed over the ten years I’ve been behind the wheel and now that I’m into my 40s.

My view is that generally you’ve gotta take one for the team now and again. You can of course exercise your right not to reduce your rest, but your company can also exercise their right not to renew your contract or can put you top of the list for when they need to downsize the fleet.

To give some examples, I’d absolutely reduce my rest if I broke down or got a flat on the way back to plant 12 hours into my day. If I was to call my boss and demand that somebody come and drive the truck back so I could get my full 11 hours I’d likely be reminded that there’s a bunk in the cab, or more likely told to stop being a lazy prick.

If I was working out of our base plant and something goes wrong, maybe the concrete pump breaks down, then I’ll likely reduce my rest to get the job done. This is an unplanned event which nobody could’ve foreseen and it’ll cause a big headache for my employer and a knock on effect for the customer if the work isn’t finished on schedule. In this situation my workmates would all stay and get the job done. This is what I’d call an example of going the extra mile, although really it’s just doing the job.

Where I’m less keen is if shipping were to plan a reduced rest period which I’ve admittedly not had happen in recent years. Many would disagree that it’s taking the piss but I think it is. If you sleep in the bunk Mon-Fri as many of the hire trucks do then it’s less of an issue, but nobody with any reasonable commute is going to get a decent rest if they need to take this out of the nine hours.

Our plant is in the city centre and it takes me an hour to do the nine mile drive home after work. Nobody is getting home quickly in the traffic. With the drive back in the following morning I’m only ever going to have 7.5 hours in the house. Take another hour to scramble in the shower and make some quick food, and then it usually takes me at least 30 mins to wind down and nod off.

Then once you factor in breakfast and getting ready in the morn you’re basically looking at around five hours of sleep. It’s doable and I do it now and again. Usually if they offer me an early shift (they always ask first) because I get a £50 bonus for coming in before 6am.

I’ve got no issues doing a 13-14 hour day when needed, as long as it’s not all the time, but I won’t compromise on my sleep too much nowadays. I’m driving in city centre traffic all day with cyclists and knobhead Deliveroo drivers weaving in and out of lanes. And when I’m onsite I’ve always got builders around my truck moving the chute etc while I operate the controls from inside. It’d only take a second to squash somebody and they’re great at walking in front of the truck just below the line of the window, usually just as the guy at the back signals you to pull forward.

Our company keeps sending us on ‘wellbeing’ days where they waffle on about getting adequate sleep, nutrition, hydration, reducing stress, etc. Yesterday’s H&S call was about ‘sleep hygiene’ and how you need 7-8 hours to function properly. How lack of sleep increases risk of accidents etc.

So although this isn’t the job for those that need to be at a restaurant booking for 7pm sharp, my attitude nowadays is that I’m not going to let some kid that works eight hours a day and has never done a 13hr shift in his life or worked through his lunchbreak plan me to work 14 hours, sleep for five, and then do another 14 while accepting all the liability if something goes wrong.

The issue I struggle with sometimes is where the line should be drawn. No doubt though a lot of drivers are happy to get bent over and will still ask for more sausage like a masochistic Oliver Twist.

A few months ago while working at another plant I turned up on the scene about ten mins after the truck in front of me had hit a pedestrian. Guy had got dragged up the road (presumably the driver hadn’t realised what was happening) and there was a 50 metre streak of gore. This driver was always pushing the hours and was always nodding off in his truck while waiting to load. Gotta say that really drove it home that anything can happen in a split second. I felt sick for the rest of the day after that. Couldn’t get it out of my head.

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everyone’s physiology is different some people are fine of 4 or 5 hours others need more than 8. it all depends. maybe who ever was allowing your colleague to drive in that state regularly will have their collar felt as well as the driver.

Way i look at it in general is things break… there are hold ups that are no ones fault (at least directly) I have no issue helping out if i can. However if it is down to poor planning and im not going to mack it back within 15 hours then im calling up and telling them im pulling in at the nearest place. They want the lorry back they can come get it. I wont be working the next night either once i have brought the lorry back to the yard.

3

Fair enough.

I think it’d rarely bother me if I wasn’t into my lifting as even on a long day I’d usually still get a bit of time to unwind. However, after bordering on being fat a few years ago I’m back to powerlifting 3x a week and it’s a two hour round trip - 1.5hrs training and then the shower and drive there and back.

If I leave work at 7pm I’ll be in the gym for 8pm and walking in the house at 10pm still needing to eat and shower. It’s not exactly something you can moan to your boss about but the vast majority of normal people can find time to do this stuff. When I was doing a 9-5 I’d usually be home by the time I’m starting my two hour sesh nowadays.

But of course I chose this job so I have to accept that. Usually, I can make it work. Instead of training Mon/Wed/Fri I can shift it to Tue/Thur/Sat or Mon/Thur/Sat. As long as I’ve got a day off between sessions I’m good.

But still as far as possible I’ll try and not have the piss taken out of me. In previous jobs I’ve found out that the shippers were taking jobs off other guys and putting them on me because they knew I’d do them. ■■■■ that, especially on a day rate like I was.

I actually enjoy the job unlike many. When I’m driving to site or waiting to tip I’m chilled. Nothing like when I worked in an office and was always playing catch up with a list I’d never complete because things were added as I finished others. And I spend a lot of time waiting and just looking at stuff on my phone so it’s not too strenuous even if days can drag out.

So I try and make it work. But nothing will ever convince me to return to being a fat knacker with a blood pressure of 145/95. I’m in great shape nowadays. Fairly slim but can deadlift a little over 250kg which isn’t bad for somebody just over 40. And my over 40s health check was great. One thing I won’t ever do again is ■■■■ up my health to pay for somebody’s new BMW.

So really it’s a bit of a balancing act of pulling my weight without getting mugged off. Generally, working for the bigger companies seems to be the way forward IME.

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thats just it i had a relatively easy role… rock into work for 7pm then go up to spalding with a load… drop and swap then back down wtih a delivery or a collection on the way back. aprox 11 hours work… no real stress and didnt have to worry too much about traffic as it was over night and i had several routes i could use that i was confident in. However when i turn up at 7pm and the load isnt ready till gone midnight because they dont bother to send anyone to get the last bit till nearly 11pm night after night… i begin to turn into an awkward sod, they wouldnt change my start time either

Thing is the day drivers were getting pissed off because they either had to wait for me to return to take over the lorry and then do the delivery i failed or had to team up with others because there wasnt enough units.

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A lot of drivers will say a 9 hour daily rest period is not enough, if someone is commuting back and forth to the yard that one way trip home could be one hour or more that’s eating in to rest time.

For a tramper sleeping in the cab overnight with no commuting that’s bearable.

The tachograph rules were made a long time ago by European bureaucrats who wouldn’t know one end of a truck to the other.

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Agreed.

Way I see it…I’ll do the long hours when required but nobody’s telling me I can’t have seven hours sleep. And telling me I need to be back here in nine hours when you know full well I’ll lose 1.5 hours commuting is basically telling me exactly that.

And if the person expecting me to do that gets into work two hours after me and is home by 6pm every night. Yeah, they can get ■■■■■■.

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Didn’t you agree to a job knowing the hours that might be worked and your commute time? What has changed?

What is your complaint?
That you are occasionally asked to do a short rest?
Was that in the job description and contract when you joined?
Or that you commute is 1hr30 mins?
If the company hasn’t moved base then you knew that when you started. (Unless you chose to move away)

If you can’t get gym-time and sleep-time in on your rest then you have to chose which to give up. One is safer to give up than the other.

If you want a job that involves sitting in an office on regular hours then apply for one.

From what you have previously said you are in a well paid job that suits you 99% of the time.
Try being cup half (sorry 99%) full, rather than half (1%) empty.

I signed up for a job where I knew I would not home often during the week so that is different, so in that position I would be staying the truck overnight in the base.

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I have stayed in the truck at the base numerous times as could not be bothered to drive home then up very early the next day to come to work.

It suited me ok as there was a shower, I could walk to the town for a meal.

On a different occasion I pulled my cab curtains shut when I did go home.

I came in to the yard the next day and a driver who the planner refused to name, tore off the curtains from the rail and broke some of the hooks, the whole curtain was on the floor in the passenger seat footwell.

Staying in the yard was not a paid night out.

Sometimes the company would have a full on audit to check on everything we were doing as some were going off the set route on deliveries to meet up with their mates at a truck stop or motorway service area and park up for the night.

Some got pulled up for wasting diesel by going off route for their favourite Greggs or other food places.

They also put a stop to drivers staying over night at the motorway area to avoid an early start from the yard and the rush hour in the city which could add an hour or more to the journey.

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What makes me laugh are these firms who are red hot on H&S (when it suits THEM) but at the same time expect a day driver to drive home,.shower, unwind, tea, get a bit of family time,.bed, then commute back …all within 9 hours.:roll_eyes:
It just aint on as far as I would be concerned.

Tramping is different, you can get a proper full 9 hours actual REST if you want,.as you are alteady on the job.

If it was me I’d he taking 11 off min every night, but as said it depends what you agreed to and knew in the initial interview…or you could have told them from start you did not do 9 offs…for H&S !

On my interview I mentioned I did not do stupid time starts half way through the night, and tbf they don’t try and give me them.

(As for them expecting to take 9 off in yard UNPAID,.i have just refused and told them it’ll be 11 off going home instead…unless they want to pay me a night out .)

It depends how much you wanted the job and/or how much they wanted you.

But best to ‘set out your stall’ from day 1,.rather than agree to it in interview,.and moan when they give you it.

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It’s always best to get some exercise on a long tip, if you arrive at the factory, or regional distribution centre and the goods in staff say it will take about 3 to 4 hours to unload the trailer or container, get out the cab and get walking or I used to take my bike and have a ride in the rural lanes.

They had my number to update me when they were an hour away from having the load tipped.

I also took some bar bell weights to have a work out much to the amusement of drivers watching and laughing.

On a long tip in North London I cycled all the way to the centre of London to visit a friend in East London.

Anyone doing container work can be on site for a long time, especially if the box needs decontaminating for insects and pests that got a free ride from Africa, the middle and far east, it was common to have snakes and spiders in the container.

The goods in won’t start unloading until the gas or chemicals has dissipated from the box.

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If I was commuting I would always try and get the 11 hours off even if I only needed a 9 for the tacho or used up all my 9’s,or ideally to have more than 11 off to make it 12, 13 or 15 hours off.

We only got paid a night out if not on base, if i camped out in the yard it was my choice, the only issue was if i was in bed the mechanic would knock on the door at night to say the truck is in for a pre-mot check, a regular service check, minor repairs or having a mot.

Or they needed the truck for the night driver for a hub run on the pallets.

I quickly learnt to enquire with the planner to verify if the truck was booked in to the garage overnight.

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I tramp for the very reason I hate trying to get back to the yard doing days so you can get home
Tacho hours are not conducive to a sensible work / home daily scenario when you live over 30mins from the yard
My commute takes in M27 jct 9 to 5 either way and at 5pm no hope

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I used to commute to Wakefield, 225 miles away from home, 4 hours in the car but then away for a few weeks or months and sometimes take the lorry home.

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Yes, I agree that the commute is something that needs to be considered by the employee before accepting the job. If I accepted a job three hours away then it’d be my fault.

However, I just don’t think nine hours between shifts is ever really reasonable except for unprecedented situations. You’d be hard pressed to find an office worker that’d agree to it (or most professions tbh) and that’s without considering whether they’d even entertain adding five hours onto their usual day beforehand.

I know I’m not an office worker and I chose to be a driver but that doesn’t mean I can’t hold the opinion that the industry is ■■■■■■ in some respects. I enjoy driving trucks and being on construction sites but I don’t think it’s great that workers doing one of the most dangerous jobs (and in my case in the most dangerous sector) are the ones doing some of the longest hours in the UK and often being pressured into reducing their rest to levels well below what is medically proven to be unhealthy and to have an effect on safety and performance.

And that’s before we get to tacho exempt/heavy plant stuff like the concrete pumps guys. I hear stories of 20 hour days from those guys.

Not meaning to come across as truculent as I respect your opinion and you’re a knowledgeable poster whose posts I’ve learned a lot from in the past, but I do think us drivers can be our own worst enemies.

But I myself am guilty of this at times I’ll admit. But it’s hard to be the one going against the status quo. You get pegged as difficult. I worked 12 hours on both Mon/Tue and then ended up reducing my rest period last night to come in for 5am today. I was then sent out to help at another plant 10 hours into my shift today and I did it as I’m not in till 8am tomorrow. However, I didn’t think I’d have to reduce my rest tbf. I got held up on site and it was a mix that needed tipped pronto so I had to just suck it up.

But tbh I put up with it here because HS2 pay silly money. £350 for a nine hour night shift that sometimes ends up being 4.5 hours. £600 for maxing my hours on a BH day shift with the guys on nights getting £700. But I still know no amount on money would be enough that day I squashed a cyclist while driving tired.

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This is pretty much how I feel. But I’ve got it too good here atm in other respects so I just take it sometimes and have a grumble to myself.

But mine is exactly the type of organisation you mention and they’re one of the biggest household names in the sector. They hold wellbeing days where they wax lyrical about the importance of getting eight hours sleep and all the 9-5ers nod and agree. But then the following week you find yourself having done two 12-13 hour days and being asked on the third day after a reduced rest to go and help at another plant 10 hours into your shift.

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Tbh I would happily see reduced rest periods scrapped altogether for those not sleeping where they stop. A mandatory 11 hour rest period which can be reduced only in exceptional circumstances whereby a printout must be taken and an explanation written on the back similar to when getting an infringement. With the TC asking questions of companies that seem to have excessive instances of this happening.

Or alternatively the WTD actually being enforced and companies sticking to the 48hr average, which realistically wouldn’t probably work within the current infrastructure. I mean, strictly speaking this is already the law. We shouldn’t have Romanian mixer drivers doing 3x15hrs and two 13hr shifts every other week as is possible in jobs like mine where you often won’t hit 4.5hrs driving all day.

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Careful mate,.all the heart attack tear arse artists who would work 24 hour days if if they could,.and aint got time to stop for a pi55 will be tearing their hair out at all that.:grin:
15 hours on , look for a totally unsuitable lay by to be rocked to sleeep, alarm set for 8.59 hours, and away again for the next bit of their endurance test job.:roll_eyes::grin:

I’m with you by the way,.11 hours gives you time to park up unwind, maybe leave the cab.(:scream: shock horror, ) and get a good night’s sleep and fresh in morning…as for H&S…much healthier much safer.

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100% mate. :joy::joy::joy:

I was parked up waiting to tip several times today at a site near to one of the well known pallet companies. I was almost getting stressed by proxy watching those guys tear arsing about! Thankfully, it’s not really an option in a mixer, or certainly not if you have an ounce of sanity due to how easy they can go over.

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It is years ago now, but when the reduction to 9hrs was first allowed it was only allowable away from home base.
From memory it was extended to all locations after a couple of years.

Should 9 off be there at all?
It is a tool, and like all tools can be used for good or bad.

It can be abused if insisted on by companies too often. It can be handy for getting home earlier, or avoiding traffic peak times and so making for an easier and shorter day.

No matter what the rules are there will always be some twisting them one way or t’other.

You seem mostly OK about your job, so have a bit of a grumble about the bad bits, but don’t go off in a huff and tell 'em to stuff it ! :wink:

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9 hours is definitely not enough, if doing day runs and home at night, by the time anyone has had a shower, a meal, a bit of social life with the family or perhaps watch a film, that equals to 4 to 5 hours of sleep or less.

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