Taco question me and boss disagrer

[saaamon]

Harry Monk:
The bizarre thing is that before the DCPC came along, every newly qualified driver knew the basics of the hours rules. Since the DCPC came in we have seen one post after another asking the most basic questions about even the simplest aspect of the hours rules by people who have sat through the course. DCPC obviously isn’t working in its current format.

Was told by a driver today who’d recently been on a cpc course that the trainer said, if you had a run that normally takes 7hrs (driving) for example but you get held up in traffic etc and your hours are up you can legally carry on to get back to the yard, because if it wasnt for the traffic you could of done the run in a day.

Honestly you couldnt make this ■■■■ up, the worst part was that because the cpc trainer told him that it was definitly the case… So who pays for the fines when everyone starts running over by a couple of hours because a cpc trainer said it was legal.

[mike-c]

doogiee:
Say I start at 19:00 drive 3half hours had truck on other work 1 hr drove for another2 hrs then had 45min break is that legal my boss says yes I say not sure others say 4half hrs you have break other work or not

I love these questions, real iffy ones. The drivers knows the basic regs, the operator is not allowed to ask him to break the law. This is a tough call, i think some of the lads here are winding you up with advice, i’d ask the customer how they want it doing. I’d love to see the outcome of this, its one of them ‘what do you do’ ones ?!!

[shep532]

Saaamon:

Harry Monk:
The bizarre thing is that before the DCPC came along, every newly qualified driver knew the basics of the hours rules. Since the DCPC came in we have seen one post after another asking the most basic questions about even the simplest aspect of the hours rules by people who have sat through the course. DCPC obviously isn’t working in its current format.

Was told by a driver today who’d recently been on a cpc course that the trainer said, if you had a run that normally takes 7hrs (driving) for example but you get held up in traffic etc and your hours are up you can legally carry on to get back to the yard, because if it wasnt for the traffic you could of done the run in a day.

Honestly you couldnt make this [zb] up, the worst part was that because the cpc trainer told him that it was definitly the case… So who pays for the fines when everyone starts running over by a couple of hours because a cpc trainer said it was legal.

I could give you many examples of a Transport Manager getting it wrong. A few examples of VOSA getting it wrong (Including putting the phone down on me when realising he was wrong) and a good few examples of totally wrong information given on here.

We are all human (I think) and therefore prone to errors.

However - was the driver relaying the information to you correctly? or had he perhaps got ‘the wrong end of the stick’ and simply miss-understood what the trainer said? I dunno.

I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

[waynedl]

shep532:

Saaamon:

Harry Monk:
The bizarre thing is that before the DCPC came along, every newly qualified driver knew the basics of the hours rules. Since the DCPC came in we have seen one post after another asking the most basic questions about even the simplest aspect of the hours rules by people who have sat through the course. DCPC obviously isn’t working in its current format.

Was told by a driver today who’d recently been on a cpc course that the trainer said, if you had a run that normally takes 7hrs (driving) for example but you get held up in traffic etc and your hours are up you can legally carry on to get back to the yard, because if it wasnt for the traffic you could of done the run in a day.

Honestly you couldnt make this [zb] up, the worst part was that because the cpc trainer told him that it was definitly the case… So who pays for the fines when everyone starts running over by a couple of hours because a cpc trainer said it was legal.

I could give you many examples of a Transport Manager getting it wrong. A few examples of VOSA getting it wrong (Including putting the phone down on me when realising he was wrong) and a good few examples of totally wrong information given on here.

We are all human (I think) and therefore prone to errors.

However - was the driver relaying the information to you correctly? or had he perhaps got ‘the wrong end of the stick’ and simply miss-understood what the trainer said? I dunno.

I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

Is this my point about the 2nd 6hr rule being optional for Eastern Europeans, because I think you’d have trouble proving that

[dessy]

To the OP! 4 and a half hours! If you can’t find a safe and legal place to do a “45” then you take a break a bit earlier! Your TM is an idiot if he said what you claim and needs a hard slap! “Ignorance is not a defence” according to VOSA,the courts and the law! HTH

If you don’t know these basic regs! Why are you keeping someone who does out of work?

[driveroneuk]

Saaamon:
Was told by a driver today who’d recently been on a cpc course that the trainer said, if you had a run that normally takes 7hrs (driving) for example but you get held up in traffic etc and your hours are up you can legally carry on to get back to the yard, because if it wasnt for the traffic you could of done the run in a day.

Definitely room for misinterpretation there.
Was the trainer meaning if it took longer than the normal 7 hours? Or did he mean you could exceed 9/10 hrs? I suspect the former & the driver has misinterpreted it.

Also it would somewhat depend on the traffic. Was it was just normal heavy traffic aka Friday afternoon or a long hold up immediately behind a major accident? In which case you could exceed hours, though maybe not as far as back to the yard.

[bigtruck]

Sounds like what your boss really means is that you should be recording the 1hrs other work as rest !!!

[wiretwister]

shep532:
I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

These 2 courses that you’ve been on are out of how many in total? 2 out of say 10 is IMHO to high a ratio to give confidence in the DCPC process being adequately monitored and standards upheld, or would you disagree with that statement?

[bloodoodle]

Wiretwister:

shep532:
I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

I can remember when drivers always had to knock their fellow drivers, to prove they were the better driver

Now it seems that DCPC Trainers have upped the anti and all they want to do is knock seven bells of ■■■■ out of fellow trainers.

It’s just the same on the LikedIn forums, Trainer willy waving at it’s ugliest

Have you never stood and heard a driver interpret what you’ve just told him, directly after the course, in a totally different way

I have, and it never ceases to amaze me that I made it absolutely crystal clear to 14 drivers but just one of the 15 interpreted it totally different

Ok, some will say that means I’m not perfect…but I’m human.

Pat

[shep532]

Wiretwister:

shep532:
I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

These 2 courses that you’ve been on are out of how many in total? 2 out of say 10 is IMHO to high a ratio to give confidence in the DCPC process being adequately monitored and standards upheld, or would you disagree with that statement?

I have my DQC for completing 35 hours. 21 of these were with Diesel Dave and of excellent standards. the 3 day course I was on was actually audited by both SQA and JAUPT at the same time!

14 hours were with an RTITB consortium member and way below any kind of standard. The longest course was just over 4 hours of training and the trainers themselves struggled to answer questions and had little interest in what they were doing.

The only other experience I have is of the courses I deliver … and so far I don’t have any complaints and neither do JAUPT who have audited me three times in the last 3 years

2 out of 10 wouldn’t be unexpected. I would imagine 2 out of 10 driving instructors are not as good as the others. 2 out of 10 VOSA staff probably get it wrong on occasion. 2out of 10 drivers aren’t exactly model employees - this will happen in all walks of life.

Problem is that the JAUPT audit process is slow and ■■■■■■■■■■ and won’t necesserily catch these below par trainers and training centres - therefore it needs people to complain properly. Even if the complaint is only to the MD of the training company rather than JAUPT or DSA. That’s what I did - complained to the MD and matters have apparently improved. He had no idea there was a problem - all the course feedback forms were fine … and there lies the problem. Drivers walked away saying “That was ■■■■” and just moaned to their mates.

[shep532]

bloodoodle:

Wiretwister:

shep532:
I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

I can remember when drivers always had to knock their fellow drivers, to prove they were the better driver

Now it seems that DCPC Trainers have upped the anti and all they want to do is knock seven bells of [zb] out of fellow trainers.

It’s just the same on the LikedIn forums, Trainer willy waving at it’s ugliest

Have you never stood and heard a driver interpret what you’ve just told him, directly after the course, in a totally different way

I have, and it never ceases to amaze me that I made it absolutely crystal clear to 14 drivers but just one of the 15 interpreted it totally different

Ok, some will say that means I’m not perfect…but I’m human.

Pat

If I was knocking these trainers I would have given details of who they are and where they are. I am simply quoting my experience which is fact.

I have heard plenty of drivers interpret what I have said incorrectly. I have had drivers sat in front of me with a drivers hours infringement for only 8h 30m daily rest in a 24 hour period and swear I told them that’s how it works because the 24 hour period runs from when he starts to mid-night then starts again. I have had drivers tell me that I told them it’s OK to get back to base at 5h 23m driving as long as they made sure they took an extra hour daily rest. i hope i didn’t tell them these things.

if the OP has simply misunderstood but now believes he was wrongly informed … a complaint won’t do any harm… Someone will check it out, visit the training centre, spring a surprise audit etc. if all is well - no harm. if it isn’t all OK then something was achieved towards fixing the problem.

And of course I don’t want these trainers in business 'cos I’m sick of being tarred with the same brush.

Unfortunately I am “One of them”. A trainer. If I say trainers are poor I get “I can’t believe you’d say that about your own colleagues”. If I say trainers are always right I get “Well you would say that”.

I stated facts. I have been on 2 DCPC courses both at RTITB approved centres - both in my opinion below standard. To encourage drivers to report poor training is the right thing to do if we are to improve the apparently tarnished name of DCPC

[saaamon]

shep532:

Saaamon:

Harry Monk:
The bizarre thing is that before the DCPC came along, every newly qualified driver knew the basics of the hours rules. Since the DCPC came in we have seen one post after another asking the most basic questions about even the simplest aspect of the hours rules by people who have sat through the course. DCPC obviously isn’t working in its current format.

Was told by a driver today who’d recently been on a cpc course that the trainer said, if you had a run that normally takes 7hrs (driving) for example but you get held up in traffic etc and your hours are up you can legally carry on to get back to the yard, because if it wasnt for the traffic you could of done the run in a day.

Honestly you couldnt make this [zb] up, the worst part was that because the cpc trainer told him that it was definitly the case… So who pays for the fines when everyone starts running over by a couple of hours because a cpc trainer said it was legal.

I could give you many examples of a Transport Manager getting it wrong. A few examples of VOSA getting it wrong (Including putting the phone down on me when realising he was wrong) and a good few examples of totally wrong information given on here.

We are all human (I think) and therefore prone to errors.

However - was the driver relaying the information to you correctly? or had he perhaps got ‘the wrong end of the stick’ and simply miss-understood what the trainer said? I dunno.

I know I have been on two DCPC courses - both RTITB Consortium members and both hadn’t got a flamin clue and couldn’t answer basic questions … and that is very very wrong. But i don’t believe it to be the ‘norm’ and these rogue trainers are just that - rogues. Of course the thing to do now is find out where the driver took his course, who the trainer was and report him and his organisation. or just moan about it on here - whichever’s easiest

You’d think it was a miss understanding, but i said to him surely he ment exceeding hours to reach nearest safe parking etc then he went on to say what if you were in a day cab, you’d have no option but to carry on driving.

I’d much rather ■■■■■ about it on here.

[shep532]

Saaamon:
I’d much rather ■■■■■ about it on here.

yeah well I’d complain otherwise he’s gonna carry on being wrong.

I’d probably make sure I bitched on here as well

[it_says_erf_not_raf]

repton:

millsie:
I thought after working 6hours the minimum break was 30 mins not 15 mins, but i stand to be corrected

Consider yourself corrected. You only need to take 15min at the 6h point. If you shift is over 6h working time you have to take 30min total breaks in the shift (45mins total if your working time is over 9h) but the breaks can be at any time in the shift as long as at no point you exceed 6h working without at least a 15min break.

For example:

Work 4h
Break 15min
Work 4h
Break 30min
Work 4h

is perectly legal. Total working time is 12h, total breaks is 45min, at no point have you worked more than 6h without a break.

Paul

I’m sure when the WTD came in this was correct but it has now been ammended to the 30 mins break during, or at the 6 hour mark. If you then work over 9 hours you do then need an additional 15 mins break totaling the 45 mins.

[repton]

It says ERF not RAF:
I’m sure when the WTD came in this was correct but it has now been ammended to the 30 mins break during, or at the 6 hour mark. If you then work over 9 hours you do then need an additional 15 mins break totaling the 45 mins.

Nope, afaik the WTD hasn’t changed in all the time it has been in force.

Paul

[wiretwister]

shep532:
2 out of 10 wouldn’t be unexpected. I would imagine 2 out of 10 driving instructors are not as good as the others. 2 out of 10 VOSA staff probably get it wrong on occasion. 2out of 10 drivers aren’t exactly model employees - this will happen in all walks of life.[

I find it hard to accept that a 20% inaccuracy rate is acceptable. It wouldn’t be for me to deliver 20% of my cargo to the wrong place or damaged.

shep532:
Problem is that the JAUPT audit process is slow and ■■■■■■■■■■ and won’t necesserily catch these below par trainers and training centres - therefore it needs people to complain properly. Even if the complaint is only to the MD of the training company rather than JAUPT or DSA. That’s what I did - complained to the MD and matters have apparently improved. He had no idea there was a problem - all the course feedback forms were fine … and there lies the problem. Drivers walked away saying “That was [zb]” and just moaned to their mates.

Ain’t that the truth. I am very uncomfortable about this though because someone new to the industry having to go through this process isn’t likely to have the same level of knowledge going in as a driver with some past experience. Without that knowledge how is the novice going to know if the information given, or his understanding of that information, is correct? The first time they are “advised” could come with a FPN “consultancy fee”.

I personally think all the modules, on any given topic, should be harmonised and the variations between training providers removed.

A case that I had with one of our in house DCPC trainer. He referenced a VOSA document that had been superceeded, and I knew it had, but he was quite adamant that the one he was referencing was the latest. Arrogant {zb} wouldn’t have it even when I advised him of the publication date (some 2 months previously) and the web address. He was right I was wrong. Needless to say his credability on that day was very tarnished particularly when some smart arse with a smart phone found said link. Had he acknowledged that JAUPT had to approve changes in reference documentation then we could both have gone away honours even. I didn’t bother complaining as it isn’t possible in the company I work for for any manager to be wrong.

[limeyphil]

there is an epidemic at the moment of ermmmmm “drivers” that claim not to know the very basic rules and regs.
is this some sort of Dcpc marketing thing?
i knew the basics before i moved up from a transit van to a 7.5 tonner.

so what’s it all about?

[selby_newcomer]

limeyphil:
there is an epidemic at the moment of ermmmmm “drivers” that claim not to know the very basic rules and regs.
is this some sort of Dcpc marketing thing?
i knew the basics before i moved up from a transit van to a 7.5 tonner.

so what’s it all about?

Exactly, the sort of info being looked for is stuff that should be known in the 1st few months of your driving career, not after you’ve done class 2 then class 1 and possibly a DCPC thrown in for good measure.

I don’t claim to know the rules and regs inside out, but if people don’t know the basics, then they’ve got no hope. Vosa would love a chat with some of the people asking these questions.