Tachomaster says I've sinned!

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Bless me TM for I have sinned.

It has been three days since my last digicard download.
I fed my card into the machine too many times, and have thus committed the sin of “gluttony”.
I like putting things into holes - and have thus committed the sin of “■■■■”.
I snarl and whine when I am sent to yards like TkMaxx or Nobbies Didcot or anything involving a pallet hub - and have thus committed the sin of “Wrath”.
I yearn to earn more money that I used to get as a full timer - and have thus committed the sin of “Envy”.
I’ve got a clean licence and two decades experience, and won’t get out of bed for less than £10ph - and have thus committed the sin of “Pride”.
I like to use the bunk during my mealbreaks, and have thus committed the sin of “Sloth”.
If I’m on a top hourly rate, I’ll cram in overtime until the cows come home - and have thus committed the sin of “Greed”.

22

Sidevalve:

shep532:
As for the OP. Maybe he just forgot about the 24h rule.

I did. As said above after 30 years I should have known better; put getting the job done above thinking about staying legal, mea culpa. NOT the same thing as deliberately ignoring the rules, hopefully management and VOSA will understand that.

The fact is the ‘getting the job done’ attitude when combined with maxing out,let alone exceeding,the ridiculously over optimistic limits can be lethal.It seems obvious that the ‘24 hour rule’ is inevitably going to be ‘forgotten’ when a new shift is being started less than 24 hours since the start of a previous one at the expense of daily rest time and inevitably sleep. :unamused: On that note the idea of ‘spreadover’ turns into a potentially dangerous red herring.

As I’ve said on similar topics it won’t matter in law wether you’re ‘legal’ or not if you run into something if maxing the mad hours regime ever catches up with you by way of simple biology.Your example shows that it isn’t an issue of training it’s one of a bs hours regime combined with drivers who are only too keen to go along with it.When it seems obvious that the idea of spreadover or a 24 hour rule ideally needs a minimum ring fenced 12 hour daily rest regime. :unamused:

23

shep532:

ROG:
There is no requirement to attend a dcpc course on driver regs

A driver could do a customer service course 5 times and get a DQC

Newbies are not given a compulsory test on the regs

Yes - the rules need changing. Certain topics should be compulsory and tested.

Theory test and Mod 2 for new drivers both contain an element of questions on drivers hours.

And yet, we still get newbies on here and on Facebook asking the most basic of questions… :unamused:

24

Don’t supposed, there’s any chance, in any of those shifts, you managed an uninterrupted 3hr ‘rest’ (break) period? :question: :bulb:

25

waynedl:

shep532:

ROG:
There is no requirement to attend a dcpc course on driver regs

A driver could do a customer service course 5 times and get a DQC

Newbies are not given a compulsory test on the regs

Yes - the rules need changing. Certain topics should be compulsory and tested.

Theory test and Mod 2 for new drivers both contain an element of questions on drivers hours.

And yet, we still get newbies on here and on Facebook asking the most basic of questions… :unamused:

And whats with that? The training material only deals in perfect numbers while we all know in the real world you hardly ever get anything close to those perfect hours. Whats better than asking someone who is already in the industry and has been doing it for a while. They can tailor the answer and advice to suit the asker.

26

Radar19:

waynedl:

shep532:

ROG:
There is no requirement to attend a dcpc course on driver regs

A driver could do a customer service course 5 times and get a DQC

Newbies are not given a compulsory test on the regs

Yes - the rules need changing. Certain topics should be compulsory and tested.

Theory test and Mod 2 for new drivers both contain an element of questions on drivers hours.

And yet, we still get newbies on here and on Facebook asking the most basic of questions… :unamused:

And whats with that? The training material only deals in perfect numbers while we all know in the real world you hardly ever get anything close to those perfect hours. Whats better than asking someone who is already in the industry and has been doing it for a while. They can tailor the answer and advice to suit the asker.

My point is, they’ve sat their Mod 2, they’ve sat their theory test, yet they’ll ask “if I have a 45 min break after 3hrs driving, do I need another 45 mins when I reach 4.5hrs driving?” and crap like that, ie BASIC questions.

I’ve no objection to anyone asking any question, my point is that the dCPC, the Mod 2, the theory test et al are not bloody working.

27

trubster:
The fact that people still don’t understand daily and weekly rest periods shows that the CPC is clearly not working…

Not a dig at the OP… Just a general opinion

The people that ran my week long drivers cpc course also run a small haulage business too, so should have been a bit more with it than some providers, but there was a wide discrepancy between what the ‘instructor’ was saying and what a room full of highly experienced ‘candidates’ were saying.

To me, here lies a problem area. Working time directive came out, but vocational drivers weren’t ‘officially’ made aware of it though DVSA, DVLC or whatever. Likewise there is still confusion amongst some drivers about use of digital tachos, but again no ‘official communication’ between DVSA/DVLC and holders of vocational licenses. In the 27 years I have held a HGV, I have never received any notification of any changes, but been reliant on what I overhear in truck stops, or what I glean from other drivers at drops etc. Not brilliant if you think about it is it?

28

waynedl:
Don’t supposed, there’s any chance, in any of those shifts, you managed an uninterrupted 3hr ‘rest’ (break) period? :question: :bulb:

Regrettably not. Already thought of that one.

29

Carryfast:

Sidevalve:

shep532:
As for the OP. Maybe he just forgot about the 24h rule.

I did. As said above after 30 years I should have known better; put getting the job done above thinking about staying legal, mea culpa. NOT the same thing as deliberately ignoring the rules, hopefully management and VOSA will understand that.

The fact is the ‘getting the job done’ attitude when combined with maxing out,let alone exceeding,the ridiculously over optimistic limits can be lethal.It seems obvious that the ‘24 hour rule’ is inevitably going to be ‘forgotten’ when a new shift is being started less than 24 hours since the start of a previous one at the expense of daily rest time and inevitably sleep. :unamused: On that note the idea of ‘spreadover’ turns into a potentially dangerous red herring.

As I’ve said on similar topics it won’t matter in law wether you’re ‘legal’ or not if you run into something if maxing the mad hours regime ever catches up with you by way of simple biology.Your example shows that it isn’t an issue of training it’s one of a bs hours regime combined with drivers who are only too keen to go along with it.When it seems obvious that the idea of spreadover or a 24 hour rule ideally needs a minimum ring fenced 12 hour daily rest regime. :unamused:

Fair points; although I can’t see the industry or the government going for the 12 hour thing. The irony is of course that I had observed the correct periods of rest in terms of 9 and 11 hour spans, just not in the right order; I just hope that it will be obvious to anyone dealing with this that there was never any intention to deceive or even gain advantage.

30

Sidevalve:

Carryfast:

Sidevalve:

shep532:
As for the OP. Maybe he just forgot about the 24h rule.

I did. As said above after 30 years I should have known better; put getting the job done above thinking about staying legal, mea culpa. NOT the same thing as deliberately ignoring the rules, hopefully management and VOSA will understand that.

The fact is the ‘getting the job done’ attitude when combined with maxing out,let alone exceeding,the ridiculously over optimistic limits can be lethal.It seems obvious that the ‘24 hour rule’ is inevitably going to be ‘forgotten’ when a new shift is being started less than 24 hours since the start of a previous one at the expense of daily rest time and inevitably sleep. :unamused: On that note the idea of ‘spreadover’ turns into a potentially dangerous red herring.

As I’ve said on similar topics it won’t matter in law wether you’re ‘legal’ or not if you run into something if maxing the mad hours regime ever catches up with you by way of simple biology.Your example shows that it isn’t an issue of training it’s one of a bs hours regime combined with drivers who are only too keen to go along with it.When it seems obvious that the idea of spreadover or a 24 hour rule ideally needs a minimum ring fenced 12 hour daily rest regime. :unamused:

Fair points; although I can’t see the industry or the government going for the 12 hour thing. The irony is of course that I had observed the correct periods of rest in terms of 9 and 11 hour spans, just not in the right order; I just hope that it will be obvious to anyone dealing with this that there was never any intention to deceive or even gain advantage.

Not to VOSA, going over your hours on Friday to get home is a sin! going over 5-10 mins over could be a verbal, nearly 2 hours could be a fine.

31

Carry a jar of Vaseline with you for the next few months…will make it easier if DVSA stop you!

5 reductions in a week… :laughing:

The rules aren’t that complicated…its people not bothering to learn them properly that creates issues.

32

weeto:
Not to VOSA, going over your hours on Friday to get home is a sin! going over 5-10 mins over could be a verbal, nearly 2 hours could be a fine.

Perhaps. We shall see; as the preacher sayeth though, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”.

One thing’s for certain; it’s completely by the book from now on!

DonutUK:
Carry a jar of Vaseline with you for the next few months…will make it easier if DVSA stop you!

5 reductions in a week… :laughing:

The rules aren’t that complicated…its people not bothering to learn them properly that creates issues.

Not a case of “not bothering” as I said above, just misinterpretation; and where do you get the fifth reduction from? I pin more faith in Tachomaster’s accuracy in calling the law than I do any driver’s (including meself of course!) and that’s only showing up the fail on Friday.

The basic rules are not, I agree, particularly complicated on thier own, and trust me nobody’s more ■■■■■■ off about this than I am; although my boss might well think differently tomorrow morning! The problem comes, though, as Carryfast pointed out, when you’re genuinely trying your best to get a job done and wires get crossed; please don’t tell me you’ve never done it.

33

Sidevalve:

weeto:
Not to VOSA, going over your hours on Friday to get home is a sin! going over 5-10 mins over could be a verbal, nearly 2 hours could be a fine.

Perhaps. We shall see; as the preacher sayeth though, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”.

One thing’s for certain; it’s completely by the book from now on!

DonutUK:
Carry a jar of Vaseline with you for the next few months…will make it easier if DVSA stop you!

5 reductions in a week… :laughing:

The rules aren’t that complicated…its people not bothering to learn them properly that creates issues.

Not a case of “not bothering” as I said above, just misinterpretation; and where do you get the fifth reduction from? I pin more faith in Tachomaster’s accuracy in calling the law than I do any driver’s (including meself of course!) and that’s only showing up the fail on Friday.

The basic rules are not, I agree, particularly complicated on thier own, and trust me nobody’s more ■■■■■■ off about this than I am; although my boss might well think differently tomorrow morning! The problem comes, though, as Carryfast pointed out, when you’re genuinely trying your best to get a job done and wires get crossed; please don’t tell me you’ve never done it.

Monday; start 06.40, finish 19.38, 12,58 spread, 9.29 rest.

Tuesday; start 05.07, finish 19.46, 14.39 spread, 9.39 rest.

Wednesday; start 05.25, finish 19.32, 13.57 spread, 12.05 rest.

Thursday; start 07.37, finish 20.34, 12,57 spread, 9.13 rest.

Friday; start 05.47, finish 20.37, 14.50 spread.

5 reducers, highlighted in BOLD to make them easy to spot - any arguments or questions?

34

waynedl:

Sidevalve:

weeto:
Not to VOSA, going over your hours on Friday to get home is a sin! going over 5-10 mins over could be a verbal, nearly 2 hours could be a fine.

Perhaps. We shall see; as the preacher sayeth though, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”.

One thing’s for certain; it’s completely by the book from now on!

DonutUK:
Carry a jar of Vaseline with you for the next few months…will make it easier if DVSA stop you!

5 reductions in a week… :laughing:

The rules aren’t that complicated…its people not bothering to learn them properly that creates issues.

Not a case of “not bothering” as I said above, just misinterpretation; and where do you get the fifth reduction from? I pin more faith in Tachomaster’s accuracy in calling the law than I do any driver’s (including meself of course!) and that’s only showing up the fail on Friday.

The basic rules are not, I agree, particularly complicated on thier own, and trust me nobody’s more ■■■■■■ off about this than I am; although my boss might well think differently tomorrow morning! The problem comes, though, as Carryfast pointed out, when you’re genuinely trying your best to get a job done and wires get crossed; please don’t tell me you’ve never done it.

Monday; start 06.40, finish 19.38, 12,58 spread, 9.29 rest.

Tuesday; start 05.07, finish 19.46, 14.39 spread, 9.39 rest.

Wednesday; start 05.25, finish 19.32, 13.57 spread, 12.05 rest.

Thursday; start 07.37, finish 20.34, 12,57 spread, 9.13 rest.

Friday; start 05.47, finish 20.37, 14.50 spread.

5 reducers, highlighted in BOLD to make them easy to spot - any arguments or questions?

OK; I hadn’t included the last one as it was followed by my weekly rest. Which, of course, is long enough to take into account the reduction of 37 minutes in last week’s.

35

Of course it is worth remembering that currently DVSA cannot fine a driver for an event that happened previously. They can only issue a fixed penalty for a ‘current’ offence. (This is due to change)

Their own guidance tells them that for historical offences they need either a single offence that would have been a £300 fine (so insufficient by more than 2 hours) or 4 or more offences that would have been £100 or more for them to get it to a prosecution.

From the figures you gave your rest was insufficient by 1h 47m and 1h 50m. Both offences would have been £200 each. So - as long as you have nothing else that is noteworthy in your 28 days records you should be OK.

Of course they could choose to follow this up with the operator which may lead to further record checks as far back as 3 or 6 months - maybe more depending on what they find.

As you have rightly said, anyone can see from the pattern of rests that it looks as though it was simple ignorance of the rules, or mistakes. Although a little late now, I would take a printout for the last 2 days, write my case on the back, sign and carry for 28 days. That way you can show the enforcement office that you realised your error - you do know the rules - and you of course have learnt a lesson.

I think Carryfast has as usual spoken sense. It is the pushing of the limits to get jobs done that causes almost all ‘innocent’ drivers hours infringements. We really do need to change our ways and step back from the absolute maximums and minimums to give room for error. In a lot of cases it is the operators that need to change.

36

I get confused by what is a current offence and what is historical in this context. If I drove for, say, 5 hours this morning, then had a 45, started off again and then got pulled, is that 5 hour drive current (being today), or historic, as I’ve had a break and wiped the tacho clean?

37

shep532:
We really do need to change our ways and step back from the absolute maximums and minimums to give room for error. In a lot of cases it is the operators that need to change.

^ This.

The hours regs ‘limits’ are just that not a target.Especially when those ‘limits’ themselves are in reality just an unrealistic,potentially dangerous,liability.Bearing in mind that the ‘offence’ of actually being too tired to drive,resulting in an accident,overrides being within the legal hours regs maximums. :bulb:

38

scaniason:
I get confused by what is a current offence and what is historical in this context. If I drove for, say, 5 hours this morning, then had a 45, started off again and then got pulled, is that 5 hour drive current (being today), or historic, as I’ve had a break and wiped the tacho clean?

The briefing notes at the beginning of the Enforcement Sanctions Policy says “For the time being it is not possible to deal with offences committed prior to the date of inspection by the issue of fixed penalty notices.” so I guess that answers your question.

However your example above is a great one as you could easily argue that offence has been and gone and they didn’t catch you doing it. But I would rather take the penalty for that (£100) than have them look back for 3 more offences to make a trip to court or my employer worthwhile.

39

Thanks - answers it nicely. Agree though about taking the hit in my example, even though I’m normally 100% clean, never pays to argue the toss with someone who’s got one eye on your wallet!

40

shep532:
Of course it is worth remembering that currently DVSA cannot fine a driver for an event that happened previously. They can only issue a fixed penalty for a ‘current’ offence. (This is due to change)

Their own guidance tells them that for historical offences they need either a single offence that would have been a £300 fine (so insufficient by more than 2 hours) or 4 or more offences that would have been £100 or more for them to get it to a prosecution.

From the figures you gave your rest was insufficient by 1h 47m and 1h 50m. Both offences would have been £200 each. So - as long as you have nothing else that is noteworthy in your 28 days records you should be OK.

Of course they could choose to follow this up with the operator which may lead to further record checks as far back as 3 or 6 months - maybe more depending on what they find.

As you have rightly said, anyone can see from the pattern of rests that it looks as though it was simple ignorance of the rules, or mistakes. Although a little late now, I would take a printout for the last 2 days, write my case on the back, sign and carry for 28 days. That way you can show the enforcement office that you realised your error - you do know the rules - and you of course have learnt a lesson.

I think Carryfast has as usual spoken sense. It is the pushing of the limits to get jobs done that causes almost all ‘innocent’ drivers hours infringements. We really do need to change our ways and step back from the absolute maximums and minimums to give room for error. In a lot of cases it is the operators that need to change.

Thanks for that Shep; as you say lesson learned! I’d already done the printouts the following Monday, thinking along the same lines as yourself; also reported myself to my manager before they came to me, official notification received, signed and returned etc. Management are happy with my explanation; having done a much easier (though still busy) week’s work this week I also suspect that someone’s had a word in the planners’ ears too. Still made for an uncomfortable 45 at Membury on Tuesday though as I had to park right next to a DVSA checkpoint!

Experience over the years has taught me that if you do make a genuine mistake, it’s far better to fess up ASAP than to try and hide behind a myriad of excuses.