Tachograph law (Merged)

[matt01]

Hello All,

I have recently started a new job on a 6 month temp contract working on site for a large company driving a 7.5 tonner collecting various chemical waste and taking back to the waste compound which is located on site. On occasion you have to leave the site and drive down a public road for approx 200 yards to get to another part of the site or sometimes you may be required to take the vehicle for refuelling which is approx 1 mile away.
Today the vehicle needed filling up and I was about to put my digi card in and a member of the full time staff advised me that I didn’t need to put a tacho in as the vehicle was empty and therefore did not require one ■■ On hearing this I asked 4 other full time staff (who have been with the company doing this job for approx 10-25 years each) if this was correct ? They all said this it what they have been told by the manager, I then took this up with the manager and he also advised that this was the correct practice and this is what he was told by his manager when he took up the role 3 years ago !!
I then questioned if they used a tacho when driving the 200 yards down the road to the other site and was told that they never use a tacho and in fact none of them even hold a digi card or would know how to fill a tacho in ! I also questioned if any of them hold a current ADR license and was told that none of them did, but due to the small amounts of waste that we carry I will question that at another time ! I currently hole a full ADR so thats not my problem.

Sorry this post is a bit long winded but am I right in saying that this vehicle if taken on the road should have a valid tacho card in it ■■

[warren_t_claim]

ROG will be along in a moment…

[trucker_beads]

i heard somewhere that tacho wsnt needed if u wernt driving more than 100km from base?? i might be wrong just what i heard

[davnic]

Trucker beads:
i heard somewhere that tacho wsnt needed if u wernt driving more than 100km from base?? i might be wrong just what i heard

I think there is a limited radius you can trvel from base but i think it’s less than 100km.
I think you still have to adhere to Domestic hours rules,though a tachograph doesn’t have to be used.

[rog]

. Welcome matt01 .

Warren T. Claim:
ROG will be along in a moment…

He will but this is one that I am going to leave for the tacho reg GURUs from the Tacho forum

[davey_driver]

Going totally off memory here, which cannot be guaranteed but

Until April 2007 you could class off road driving as other work, but this was abolished when the Tacho Laws changed in April 2007, all driving whether off road or on road is now classed as driving time.

Domestic rules are another thing altogether which I’m not 100% familiar with as I’ve never used them, but I’m pretty sure you cant swap and change between them, if you use a tacho once then you must operate under EU Regs (Tacho Regs) for the remainder of the week.

[wheel_nut]

Until the site guru arrives i shall attempt this one to give the company a reprieve with a possible exemptions in the EU regulations

Article 3
Section h.

(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods;

Article 13
Section d

(d) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used:
– by universal service providers as defined in Article 2
(13) of Directive 97/67/EC of the European
Parliament and of the Council of 15 December
1997 on common rules for the development of the
internal market of Community postal services and
the improvement of quality of service

(1) to deliver items as part of the universal service, or
– for carrying materials, equipment or machinery for
the driver’s use in the course of his work.

These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 kilometre
radius from the base of the undertaking, and on
condition that driving the vehicles does not constitute
the driver’s main activity;

As for the ADR, then Diesel Dave will sing chapter and verse when he has finished his pie

[hitch]

stick the bloody card in
its not illegal to use a tacho if its not legally required
6 months months eh
what happens when you have an enforced lay off
and have to do proper driving at least you have a record of going to work

[cruise_control]

Wheel Nut:
As for the ADR, then Diesel Dave will sing chapter and verse when he has finished his pie

and Coffeeholic will be along once he’s slurped his favorite hot drink while looking at his coffee stained RTD/WTD book

[delboytwo]

the job you are doing looks like you work on domestic hours

there is no requirement for the use of a tacho for domestic hours but you should be filling a record of you driving and work duties some call it a log book

i am sure some one on here will help you out,

i think that if no driver is doing it at the depot then it may be domestic hours

[tachograph]

I can’t honestly find any reason why you would be on domestic rules if you’re moving chemical waste around so lets assume for now that you’re not.

I would have thought the fact that the vehicle is empty when you go on public roads is irrelevant as far as using a tachograph is concerned.

From the information you’ve given I’m reasonably sure you should be using the tachograph not only when you actually enter public roads but also for any part of that same journey including the part before and after being on public roads.

I suggest you ask your employer if you are indeed on domestic rules and if so how are you exempt from EU regulations, I’m guessing that you’re not and so should be using a tachograph for journeys that involve going on public roads.

Also remember that in any week when you drive in-scope of EU regulations you should keep a record of all other work done during that week, if you need any more information on the records you need to keep feel free to post back there’s usually someone around to reply.

Good luck

By the way, welcome to Trucknet UK

[dieseldave]

Wheel Nut:
As for the ADR, then Diesel Dave will sing chapter and verse when he has finished his pie

Hi Malc,
The pie, now having been devoured, is no longer blocking my view of the screen, so here goes…

From reading matt01’s description of “small amounts of waste,” I get the feeling that ADR probably doesn’t apply to the job as described, but in order to be sure, I’d have to know exactly which substance (UN number, class and packing group) and the method of packaging (if any) and the total amount to be carried.

The carriage of ‘normal’ waste isn’t regulated by ADR, so only the Waste Regs would need to be obeyed.
If the waste contains a substance that appears in ADR’s dangerous goods list, then ADR might also apply to the job if the relevant ADR Transport Category ‘freebie’ load limit is exceeded.

To give a straightforward example, let’s say that there had been a RTA (or whatever politically correct name that’s called these days. ) Let’s say that a truck’s diesel tank had leaked 1,000 ltrs of diesel onto a road…
The fire brigade turn up, then make safe with foam (in case of fire) then the diesel is contained by the use of 4t of absorbent material, maybe sand. Now that lot needs cleaning up and moving for disposal…

The load to be carried for disposal is a total of 5t of sand that’s contaminated by 1,000ltrs of diesel fuel.
A registered waste contractor now turns up to collect the load for onward transmission to a licenced disposal site, and we’re wondering whether the driver would need an ADR licence and orange boards etc…

ADR doesn’t regulate the carriage of sand, so for ADR purposes all we have to consider is 1,000 ltrs of diesel fuel. The relevant Transport Category limit is 1,000 ltrs (TC 3,) so no ADR licence and no orange boards are needed. All that ADR requires for that job is 1 X 2kg dry powder ADR compliant fire-extinguisher to be on board the vehicle, then from an ADR point of view, the driver is good to go.

For the waste Regs purposes, the load is (approx) 5t of contaminated sand.

[tricky_dicky]

Good post!

So in short:

Do we need a tacho or not as we never ever work more than 15 miles from our depot and our 7.5 tonner carries our own plant to do our job!

Yes or no??

Tricky d

[delboytwo]

hi tachograph

the reason i said he mite be on domestic hours is these quotes

matt01:
On hearing this I asked 4 other full time staff (who have been with the company doing this job for approx 10-25 years each) if this was correct ? They all said this it what they have been told by the manager,

matt01:
I then questioned if they used a tacho when driving the 200 yards down the road to the other site and was told that they never use a tacho and in fact none of them even hold a digi card or would know how to fill a tacho in !

[wheel_nut]

There are two key requirements for drivers to meet GB domestic rules:

max 4 hours driving per day, and staying within 50 km radius of the base.

A driver must not be on duty more than 10 hours per day and take 11 hours rest.

I cannot see why anyone would want to faff about like that, stick a tacho card in, it is much simpler.

[logistics_solutions]

I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware, and what I would advise our drivers to do is put the Tacho in. Regardless of Tacho law, you are governed by RTD/WTD and it is classed as Working Time.

[geebee45]

Matt, if you stay ‘on site’ during a working day and do not drive on a road open to the public then you do not need to use the tachograph as you will be exempt from the EU drivers hours rules. You will also be exempt the UK domestic rules so you don’t need to keep log books either.

On the days where you drive on the public road between the two sites (even if it is only 200 yards) or when you pop down to the filling station (a mile away) you now come under the EU drivers hours rules. Tachograph cards / charts must be used and you must obey the daily and weekly rest requirements and limits for continuous, daily, weekly and fortnightly driving times. The activity you describe, collecting chemical waste, doesn’t fall under any of the exemptions or derogations from the EU regulations. You only fall under the Road Transport (working Time) Regulations if you drive (under EU rules) on 11 or more occasions in a reference period of less than 26 weeks, or drive on 16 or more occasions where the reference period is 26 weeks (or more). Drivers who are governed by the Domestic Hours rules do not fall under the control of the RT(WT)R. What does this mean? if you do 16 or more trips on the road in a six month period then you will be subject to the RT(WT) Regulation.

Regardless of how many times you drive on the road, you come under the EU drivers hours rules so it would be very advisable for your employers to get some tacho charts issued and drivers to get and lean how to use digital tacho cards. Company also needs to get some downloading kit and start complying with the relevant legislation. If you let me know where you’re based, I can arrange for my ‘firm’ to visit yours and explain the fine (no pun intended) detail to them The fact that the vehicle is not laden when it travels on the road makes no difference as far as these rules are concerned.

Tricky D,

if the vehicles you use have a permitted weight (including that of the trailer, if they draw one)
of 7.5 tonnes or less and they stay within 50 km radius of base and you are employed as a machine driver or hole digger rather than a driver and you are carrying the machine on the vehicle for you to use, rather than just delivering it, then you are exempt EU drivers hours rules and can drive under the Domestic Hours rules. However, be careful as you have to be able to prove all four parts of the derogation to claim it. The bit about driving not being your main employment basically means; if you lost your ability to drive, would you still be employable by the company as a machine operator, hole digger, scaffolder etc?

[rog]

ROG:
this is one that I am going to leave for the tacho reg GURUs

I’m so glad that I did - see post above

And I learned something new -

if the vehicles you use have a permitted weight (including that of the trailer, if they draw one)
of 7.5 tonnes or less and they stay within 50 km radius of base and you are employed as a machine driver or hole digger rather than a driver and you are carrying the machine on the vehicle for you to use, rather than just delivering it, then you are exempt EU drivers hours rules and can drive under the Domestic Hours rules. However, be careful as you have to be able to prove all four parts of the derogation to claim it. The bit about driving not being your main employment basically means; if you lost your ability to drive, would you still be employable by the company as a machine operator, hole digger, scaffolder etc?

Thanks

[tachograph]

geebee45:
Matt, if you stay ‘on site’ during a working day and do not drive on a road open to the public then you do not need to use the tachograph as you will be exempt from the EU drivers hours rules.

Hope you don’t mind me clarifying this geebee45 but even though no tachograph would need to be used on days when no in-scope driving is done, if he drives in-scope of the EU regulations at any time during the week he will need to keep records of some description (start and finish times, date and name ) on days when he does no in-scope driving as indicated by your companies rule book

During a week in which the in-scope driving has taken place, any previous work (including out-of-scope driving since the last weekly rest period), would have to be recorded as “other work” on a tachograph chart, printout or a manual entry using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph, or a legally required GB domestic record on a log book.

Recording other work

Drivers must record all other work and periods of availability — including work for other employers — on all driving and non-driving days within a week where they have undertaken driving that comes within the scope of the EU rules on drivers’ hours since their last weekly rest.
For example, a driver who works in a warehouse on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and wishes to drive a vehicle within the scope of the EU rules on Thursday of the same week must complete records for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.
The record must be either:

• written manually on a chart;
• written manually on a printout from a digital tachograph;
• made by using the manual input facility of a digital tachograph; or
• for days where a driver has been subject to the domestic drivers’ hours rules and a record is legally required (see page 25), recorded in a domestic log book.
  For the non-driving days, the record may simply show the driver’s name, the date, and the start and finish of the shift. These records must be carried on the vehicle by the driver to be produced to enforcement officers for the relevant period (see individual sections on how to make manual entries).

[rog]

geebee45:
Matt, if you stay ‘on site’ during a working day and do not drive on a road open to the public then you do not need to use the tachograph as you will be exempt from the EU drivers hours rules. You will also be exempt the UK domestic rules so you don’t need to keep log books either.

I am guessing that geebee45 meant that for where no driving at all was ever done on public roads.

I do see your point if doing none on one day but some on another

It could have been made a little clearer…