Hi,
I have been double manning for a couple of weeks now, and there are aspects to the tacho that I don’t get.
At the moment, driver 1 is always the actual person driving, so when we switch over, we are swapping the tachos over. This means the tachos get recorded properly. My question is, why do we have to swap the disks over, when both driver 1 and driver 2 controls have all 3 mode settings available ?
Secondly, we are due to get a new truck (with a digital tacho) soon, so presumably both cards will have to be inserted at the start of the shift. Will we have to swap the card positions (same as we’re doing with the disks now) or can they be left where they are and just change the mode for each card ?
Thirdly, with the digital tachos, when we first put the cards in (start of the shift) do we have to do one at a time, wait for the card to initialise, then put the second card in and repeat the process, or can we just put both in at once and let the head unit tell us what it wants ?
Lastly, we both have to swap into another truck during the shift. Is there anything relevant we should know about the digi tacho setup for that situation ?
Thanks for any information on this, as I can’t find much on the net about it at all (apart from paul@midways guide)
cheers
update - I have found the short siemens guide is available for free. Still no info on double manning though.
You can buy the full manual from novadata for £7.00 but I don’t know if that’s any more informative. Plus it’s £6.50 for delivery ! and you need to spend £10 before it’ll let you check out
No idea as regrads your questions on the digital tachos but I can answer your question about why you have to swap the disc over. You say both have all three modes but that isn’t quite correct, position one has four modes, Rest/Break, Other Work, POA and Driving. The second man position cannot record driving, and you wouldn’t want it to otherwise it would record driver two. driving when he wasn’t.
I don’t quite understand where you’re coming from with that. All fairly modern tachos automatically switch between driving and “other work”.
Driver 1 has crossed hammers, the box, and rest positions, so does driver 2, identical switches in fact.
If driver 1 is resting and driver 2 is driving then the switches when set accordingly should record that fact. Otherwise, why have the switches available on the driver 2 position.
smoker:
I don’t quite understand where you’re coming from with that. All fairly modern tachos automatically switch between driving and “other work”.
Not just from Other Work, position 1 switches automatically from any of the three modes to driving when the vehicle moves. It doesn’t matter if you leave it set to Bed. Crossed Hammers or Square Box it will record driving automatically
smoker:
If driver 1 is resting and driver 2 is driving then the switches when set accordingly should record that fact.
How? You don’t have to move the switch for driving to be recorded when the vehicle moves it happens regardless of where the two mode switches are set to.
smoker:
Otherwise, why have the switches available on the driver 2 position.
So he can record his activity while the other person is driving. While driver 1 is driving, driver 2 could be on a break, doing other work or claiming POA and the switch gives him these options.
Older tacho heads had a 4th mode - driving - which was a circle with a couple of lines through it. In effect that 4th mode is still there but you no longer have to select it, as was the case with older units.
Now think about it for a minute, if both position 1 and position 2 started to record driving automatically when the vehicle moved this would be creating a false record for one of the drivers, they can’t both be driving at the same time and there is no position of the mode switch that can stop position one recording driving. Likewise there is no position of the mode switch that will enable driving for position 2. This means it can only record whatever the other driver is doing while his colleague drives, Other Work, Break or POA.
Coffeeholic:
So he can record his activity while the other person is driving. While driver 1 is driving, driver 2 could be on a break, doing other work or claiming POA and the switch gives him these options.
Actually, Neil, I think that in the case of most CD-style paper tachos, you’re wrong
They always seem to record driver 2 as PoA (box) when the vehicle is moving. AFAIK, all digital tachos also do this.
More appropriately, the driver 2 button is there to record the second driver’s activities when the vehicle isn’t moving (e.g. is (s)he helping with the loading, on break, or doing something else?)
Coffeeholic:
Now think about it for a minute, if both position 1 and position 2 started to record driving automatically when the vehicle moved this would be creating a false record for one of the drivers, they can’t both be driving at the same time and there is no position of the mode switch that can stop position one recording driving. Likewise there is no position of the mode switch that will enable driving for position 2. This means it can only record whatever the other driver is doing while his colleague drives, Other Work, Break or POA.
Certainly in the case of the old mechanical (dial-style) tachos, there simply isn’t a recording stylus to draw the line on the paper, so you have to swap the disks over so that the person who is driving has their tacho touching the stylus.
I’m not sure about the CD-style ones as I’ve never double-manned in one. Someone told me that with them, you don’t have to swap disks when swapping drivers, but I wasn’t too convinced. Are there any ones which do this? If so, how do you tell the tacho head which one is driving, especially if the second driver wants to record his/her time as “other work”?
Coffeeholic:
So he can record his activity while the other person is driving. While driver 1 is driving, driver 2 could be on a break, doing other work or claiming POA and the switch gives him these options.
Actually, Neil, I think that in the case of most CD-style paper tachos, you’re wrong
They always seem to record driver 2 as PoA (box) when the vehicle is moving. AFAIK, all digital tachos also do this.
True enough, I wasn’t thinking of the CD style ones when I answered the question as smoker mentioned setting the switches appropriately and you don’t get an option to set the switch on a CD style head. Although they do default to POA there is nothing to stop the driver recording the time as something else by making a manual entry on the back of the chart.
MrFlibble:
Coffeeholic:
Now think about it for a minute, if both position 1 and position 2 started to record driving automatically when the vehicle moved this would be creating a false record for one of the drivers, they can’t both be driving at the same time and there is no position of the mode switch that can stop position one recording driving. Likewise there is no position of the mode switch that will enable driving for position 2. This means it can only record whatever the other driver is doing while his colleague drives, Other Work, Break or POA.
Certainly in the case of the old mechanical (dial-style) tachos, there simply isn’t a recording stylus to draw the line on the paper, so you have to swap the disks over so that the person who is driving has their tacho touching the stylus.
I’m not sure about the CD-style ones as I’ve never double-manned in one. Someone told me that with them, you don’t have to swap disks when swapping drivers, but I wasn’t too convinced.
You would still have to swap the discs as there is no way of stopping position 1 recording driving when the vehicle moves, if there was it would make the device next to useless as it would be open to all sorts of abuse.
In all analogue tachos, including the CD style ones driver 1 is always the person who is driving and driver 2 is always the co-driver (the one on the passenger seat(. All analogue tachos only have a single stylus for recordings made on the co-driver (2) chart. This single stylus will record only activity for the co-driver. It is only the chart in position 1 (driver) that gets distance and vehicle speed as well.
Analogue Modular tachos (cd type) and the VDO 1319 fitted to Actros and some Sprinters (both pre modular) will record ‘Available’ (square box) on a co-driver disc when the vehicle is moving. The reason for this is that 3821/85 (the Regulations that tell you how to use tachos) say that this is how you should record time when on the passenger seat of multi-manned vehicle, which is in motion.
With digitals it is best to put one card in, let the Vehicle Unit process it then put the second card in. It seems to take ages, trust me it takes even longer when you put both cards in together or before the first has finished processing.
When you swap driver to co-driver with a digital you must change the cards over in the slots; 1 is always the driver 2 always co-driver.
When changing between vehicles with a digital there is nothing special to do other than take your card out of the first VU and put it in the second. When you withdraw a card from a digital it will ask you to enter a location eg; UK, F, D or whatever. For the mid-shift change you don’t do this, press the ‘X’ key or the back arrow key with the little dot nest to it, which one depends upon the tacho. If you are ejecting the card at the end of the day then you need to enter a country. If there is more than a minute between withdrawl and insertion the VU will ask you to make a manual record to account for the time difference.
how does it work if your normaly double manned and your co driver at the last minute does’nt turn up for work and the company asks you to drive on your own for about 4 hours pick up another driver let him drive for about 2 hours, then he drives back to where you first picked him up again about 2 hours leaving you to drive back to where you started,all in all about a 14 hour shift, the only break your having is when the other driver is driving,and do you leave your tacho in the 2nd man place or keep it out because its not really double manned if your not starting together in the first place?the rest of the time is spent on loading/unloading, refueling and paper work .
Neil, you’re correct, I wasn’t thinking straight regarding the automatic switching to driving mode. Having never driven a truck with a manual driving setting, I always equated the crossed hammers with driving. So, of course without a seperate switch, there is no way to define which driver is actually driving.
We do of course swap the cd style discs over too.
It’s interesting that the digi tachos require you to move the card though. You would think they could have sorted that out by now, after all it’s only software. I would have though that by not moving the cards there would be less opportunity for abuse - ie, if the cards have been removed during a shift, there would need to be a good explanation.
Anyway, you learn something everyday
Thanks to geebee45 and MrFlibble too, it all adds to the knowledge base
Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I’ve been parted from the computer all week. It lives in Exeter, while I’m working out of Brixham at the moment, which means I can’t get back every day
The traffic is a ■■■■■ by the time I finish (7.30 - 8-00 am) and I wouldn’t get a parking space back here in Exeter any time after 8am
JDB:
how does it work if your normaly double manned and your co driver at the last minute does’nt turn up for work and the company asks you to drive on your own for about 4 hours pick up another driver let him drive for about 2 hours, then he drives back to where you first picked him up again about 2 hours leaving you to drive back to where you started,all in all about a 14 hour shift, the only break your having is when the other driver is driving,and do you leave your tacho in the 2nd man place or keep it out because its not really double manned if your not starting together in the first place?the rest of the time is spent on loading/unloading, refueling and paper work .
You have answered your own question
You cannot double man with only one person so the driver you pick up is just a passenger who can drive.
Obviously both of you have to record your time but the 30 hour spreads go out of the window, presumably like the discs
The way we do it is write on the back the other drivers name and the time you doubled manned from and to.
I got caught in traffic in London the other night taking me up to the end of 4 1/2 hours, and rather than sit for 45 minutes, the TM came over from the other yard, took me and the truck back there (with me as driver 2), which gave me the break I needed. I then swapped back to driver 1 position, and marked the details on the back of the tacho.
smoker thats illegal by the way. You have to double man from the start of your shift. you should have left your chart out and put your break in manually on the rear of disc cause if you get pulled there will be no speed trace marking and only a mode trace as thats all that is recorded on the 2nd man.
hence the reason why they need to be swapped over when drivers swap over
ex muppet:
smoker thats illegal by the way. You have to double man from the start of your shift.
Only until the 11th of April, after that date the presence of the 2nd driver is optional during the first hour. As long as the second driver joins the vehicle within an hour of the start of the journey you will be able to work double manning rules from that point. If he doesn’t you can still both share the driving but the normal shift limits will apply.
ex muppet:
smoker thats illegal by the way. You have to double man from the start of your shift. you should have left your chart out and put your break in manually on the rear of disc cause if you get pulled there will be no speed trace marking and only a mode trace as thats all that is recorded on the 2nd man.
hence the reason why they need to be swapped over when drivers swap over
Maybe I’m being thick here, but what do you mean by "no speed trace marking " ?
I was running as driver 1, then swapped my disk to driver 2 while he drove, then back to driver 1 when I started driving again. He had his own disk.
How is that different from him being there from the beginning ? I still only drove for 4 1/2 hours in a stretch, and didn’t do over 9 hours total driving in the shift.
And as you said, you only get a mode trace as driver 2 (which I was at that point).
JDB:
how does it work if your normaly double manned and your co driver at the last minute does’nt turn up for work and the company asks you to drive on your own for about 4 hours pick up another driver let him drive for about 2 hours, then he drives back to where you first picked him up again about 2 hours leaving you to drive back to where you started,all in all about a 14 hour shift, the only break your having is when the other driver is driving,and do you leave your tacho in the 2nd man place or keep it out because its not really double manned if your not starting together in the first place?the rest of the time is spent on loading/unloading, refueling and paper work .
You have answered your own question
You cannot double man with only one person so the driver you pick up is just a passenger who can drive.
Obviously both of you have to record your time but the 30 hour spreads go out of the window, presumably like the discs
does that mean you could do it like that but you need a longer rest period
JDB:
how does it work if your normaly double manned and your co driver at the last minute does’nt turn up for work and the company asks you to drive on your own for about 4 hours pick up another driver let him drive for about 2 hours, then he drives back to where you first picked him up again about 2 hours leaving you to drive back to where you started,all in all about a 14 hour shift, the only break your having is when the other driver is driving,and do you leave your tacho in the 2nd man place or keep it out because its not really double manned if your not starting together in the first place?the rest of the time is spent on loading/unloading, refueling and paper work .
You have answered your own question
You cannot double man with only one person so the driver you pick up is just a passenger who can drive.
Obviously both of you have to record your time but the 30 hour spreads go out of the window, presumably like the discs
does that mean you could do it like that but you need a longer rest period
It means that all the normal daily working limits, 9 or 11 hours rest in the 24 hour period, for one driver operation apply. Because the second driver wasn’t present from the start of the shift, or within the first hour from April 11th, then you aren’t double manning as far as the regulations are concerned.
In the scenario you outlined above you are legal because the shift was only 14 hours and yes you do use the 2nd man position.
JDB:
how does it work if your normaly double manned and your co driver at the last minute does’nt turn up for work and the company asks you to drive on your own for about 4 hours pick up another driver let him drive for about 2 hours, then he drives back to where you first picked him up again about 2 hours leaving you to drive back to where you started,all in all about a 14 hour shift, the only break your having is when the other driver is driving,and do you leave your tacho in the 2nd man place or keep it out because its not really double manned if your not starting together in the first place?the rest of the time is spent on loading/unloading, refueling and paper work .
You have answered your own question
You cannot double man with only one person so the driver you pick up is just a passenger who can drive.
Obviously both of you have to record your time but the 30 hour spreads go out of the window, presumably like the discs
does that mean you could do it like that but you need a longer rest period
It means that all the normal daily working limits, 9 or 11 hours rest in the 24 hour period, for one driver operation apply. Because the second driver wasn’t present from the start of the shift, or within the first hour from April 11th, then you aren’t double manning as far as the regulations are concerned.
In the scenario you outlined above you are legal because the shift was only 14 hours and yes you do use the 2nd man position.
cheers for that, i think i might have picked this up wrong but as from 11th april you can pick up 2nd driver within an hour of your start point but both of you have to finish at the same point is that correct or could you drop driver 2 where you picked them up? it would seem a bit mad if driver 2 had to finish an hour away from say there car/house
