Hi all, quick little question, I received an infringement today saying I had worked 6 hours 16 minutes without a break. Work says this is in breach of working time regulations, I said my driving time is fine so Foxtrot Oscar.
As I understand it I need to take a 30 minute break if work is between 6 and 9 hours and 45 if over 9 hours. So 6h16 is between 6 and 9 hours, I finish and am then on a break, my daily rest, so it isn’t an infringement as I’m technically on a ‘break’, would that be correct?
I’m ignoring the fact that I was waiting in the yard for a bay for nearly an hour and a half along with 7 other drivers due to yet another wonderful piece of planning by the chimps.
I was also wanting to confirm that the next ‘block’ of working time starts when your break ends?
Example: 0600-1145 work, 1145-1200 break, then I would have till 1800 before I needed a break? (ignoring driving for this example) And does that break need to be taken in full before 1800 or can it be taken at 1800 or cross-over 1800? (1755-1810 for example)
You may wonder why I don’t ask my office. That would be the same office that thought you lost driving time for taking a break early ie. driving 4h20 and taking a 45m break meant you lost that 10mins. Yes, that is a transport office.
I was also wanting to confirm that the next ‘block’ of working time starts when your break ends?
Example: 0600-1145 work, 1145-1200 break, then I would have till 1800 before I needed a break? (ignoring driving for this example) And does that break need to be taken in full before 1800 or can it be taken at 1800 or cross-over 1800? (1755-1810 for example)
You may wonder why I don’t ask my office. That would be the same office that thought you lost driving time for taking a break early ie. driving 4h20 and taking a 45m break meant you lost that 10mins. Yes, that is a transport office.
I was also wanting to confirm that the next ‘block’ of working time starts when your break ends?
Example: 0600-1145 work, 1145-1200 break, then I would have till 1800 before I needed a break? (ignoring driving for this example) And does that break need to be taken in full before 1800 or can it be taken at 1800 or cross-over 1800? (1755-1810 for example)
You may wonder why I don’t ask my office. That would be the same office that thought you lost driving time for taking a break early ie. driving 4h20 and taking a 45m break meant you lost that 10mins. Yes, that is a transport office.
Cheers again,
A.
you can start break 2 at 1800
This is something that has caused confusion for me also, after reading different threads I’ve pretty much got my head around it but does the first 15 min need to be taken before 6 hours or can it be on 6 hours? (Ie 1200 from Adonis scenario).
Also am I correct in thinking that again from above scenario as it is over 9 hours the break at 1800 would need to be 30mins.
The law says you can’t work for more than six hours without a break. So you need to take a break before you exceed six hours working.
Eg, if you start work at 0600 you must have started a break by 1200.
If you work over nine hours you need a break or breaks totalling 45 min, with each break being a minimum of 15 min. You can split that 45 into any chunks of at least 15 min.
So 15-15-15; 15-30; 30-15; 20-25 etc are all acceptable (ignoring any need for driving breaks).
Adonis.:
I’m ignoring the fact that I was waiting in the yard for a bay for nearly an hour and a half along with 7 other drivers due to yet another wonderful piece of planning by the chimps.
So the office are chimps according to a driver who doesn’t actually know the rules of his own job? Makes sense.
Whilst you were waiting around for 1 1/2 hours (those chimps again) what mode did you record? Maybe you could have avoided breaking the law?
And although Rog keeps insisting the DVSA aren’t interested in WTD I see plenty of drivers called in front of a TC because of the WTD and also have WTD infringements added to the list of offences when being prosecuted. I also see companies called in for a Public Inquiry because of WTD.
ROG:
Where are the penalties listed for breaches of WTD
Not seen them on the DVSA sanctions list …
Quite right Rog - there are no Graduated Fixed Penalties for WTD. They are not in the Enforcement Sanctions Policy but of course there is still PROSECUTION and there is still the ability to take these OFFENCES into account when deciding on the sanction to be taken against a driver.
So lets say a driver has 4 daily rest infringements in his 28 days of records. This warrants prosecution. Whilst analysing the tacho data they also find numerous infringements of the ‘6 hour rule’ and a couple of weeks with more than 60 hours work. They will bring those WTD issues into the mix which ‘might’ make it all look much worse and increase the sanctions taken.
I have met three drivers this year all called in front of a TC for working over 60h a week - nothing else. All three were called for a conduct hearing and had a 14 day suspension of the vocational licence. I also have a customer whose driver was given a 45m break at the roadside by DVSA because he had gone 7h 19m without a break (only 3.5 hours driving). DVSA then did a site visit and tacho check the result was six drivers prosecuted for drivers hours infringements. Had he complied with the WTD it wouldn’t have happened.
ROG:
Where is the penalty guidance for WTD breaches
It must be somewhere if a judge is to convict on it …
I am not saying they convict ‘on it’ but they can take it into account. It paints a picture. Sets a theme. Tells a story.
I would have said I wouldn’t worry so much about any conviction or penalty - but a trip to see a TC isn’t the best option. A TM or Operator being called into a PI isn’t the best option.
Take into account an Operators undertakings and conditions on their licence - they must ensure that ALL rules and regulations are followed etc etc. It is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE if they do not abide by the conditions and undertakings applied to their licence. So as I see that - a driver persistently breaks the WTD rules and this ‘may’ be used against the operator.
A good friend of mine represents operators in PI’s (He’s a busy chap) … from what he tells me I believe compliance with the WTD is of importance and in some cases has made matters worse for operators and drivers when non-compliance has been detected.
I just think it is wrong to suggest ‘don’t worry about it’.
Adonis.:
I’m ignoring the fact that I was waiting in the yard for a bay for nearly an hour and a half along with 7 other drivers due to yet another wonderful piece of planning by the chimps.
So the office are chimps according to a driver who doesn’t actually know the rules of his own job? Makes sense.
Whilst you were waiting around for 1 1/2 hours (those chimps again) what mode did you record? Maybe you could have avoided breaking the law?
And although Rog keeps insisting the DVSA aren’t interested in WTD I see plenty of drivers called in front of a TC because of the WTD and also have WTD infringements added to the list of offences when being prosecuted. I also see companies called in for a Public Inquiry because of WTD.
Other Work, as I was still working. Wouldn’t want to break the law now.
Notice we’re in the New Drivers section where people such as new drivers come to ask questions. Those same new drivers may not be used to working with 2 sets of rules regarding working time and are looking for a bit of help, not some smug clown talking out his hole about the TC.
I fell foul of this on quite a few occasions. Now I try and have a 45 in my first 6 hours then a 15 before I get back to the yard. Once you get a handle on it, its quite easy to know when you need a break.
Adonis.:
I’m ignoring the fact that I was waiting in the yard for a bay for nearly an hour and a half along with 7 other drivers due to yet another wonderful piece of planning by the chimps.
So the office are chimps according to a driver who doesn’t actually know the rules of his own job? Makes sense.
Whilst you were waiting around for 1 1/2 hours (those chimps again) what mode did you record? Maybe you could have avoided breaking the law?
And although Rog keeps insisting the DVSA aren’t interested in WTD I see plenty of drivers called in front of a TC because of the WTD and also have WTD infringements added to the list of offences when being prosecuted. I also see companies called in for a Public Inquiry because of WTD.
Other Work, as I was still working. Wouldn’t want to break the law now.
Notice we’re in the New Drivers section where people such as new drivers come to ask questions. Those same new drivers may not be used to working with 2 sets of rules regarding working time and are looking for a bit of help, not some smug clown talking out his hole about the TC.
A.
Well, if you are waiting and not doing anything I’d say you could class that as a break.
It was more the fact I was supposed to be in and done within about 10 minutes. Tacho on OW while I sort the things that need sorting and then get ready to go on a bay which I would be on for no more than about 3 minutes.
Had I been told ‘Sorry, been a ■■■■ up it’ll be a while till you’re sorted,’ I’d have stuck it on break but I was told ‘we’re sorting it out, its not our fault, you’ll get seen in a minute.’ I didn’t think to put it on a break.
Lesson learnt anyway, in future don’t trust the skip lickers.
Adonis.:
It was more the fact I was supposed to be in and done within about 10 minutes. Tacho on OW while I sort the things that need sorting and then get ready to go on a bay which I would be on for no more than about 3 minutes.
Had I been told ‘Sorry, been a ■■■■ up it’ll be a while till you’re sorted,’ I’d have stuck it on break but I was told ‘we’re sorting it out, its not our fault, you’ll get seen in a minute.’ I didn’t think to put it on a break.
Lesson learnt anyway, in future don’t trust the skip lickers.
A.
In future if it looks like your going to be there a while just stick it on break anyway. More often then not, the moment you do stick it on break a forkie will wave you on a bay!
