The Sarge:
FFS! If there is a widdle dwiving wheel picture thingy on the pwint out - then that is the time you were dwiving for. If there a widdle cwossed hammers or a widdle picture of a nice comfy bed then it isn’t. They can’t add the cwossed hammers to the dwiving time! Now do you all understand, kiddie-winkies?
Exactly!
Me in a 2006 and a mate in a 2011 lorry did the same route and had a 45min in the same layby. On the second 4.5hr drive he made it back to the yard and i had to pull over for another 45min about 40min away. My boss just thought I was hanging the job out but queuing in that lorry ruins drive time.
I think Mr plod is combining uk domestic regs with EU regs
Domestic driving time (and the RTA 1988) state that a person is deemed to be driving when they are at the controls so it seems that plod is right when saying that EU regs recorded driving time is in most cases likely to be less than UK law defined driving time
what plod seems to not say is that EU law trumps UK law … hopefully that might change if we sod off out the EU !
ROG:
I think Mr plod is combining uk domestic regs with EU regsDomestic driving time (and the RTA 1988) state that a person is deemed to be driving when they are at the controls so it seems that plod is right when saying that EU regs recorded driving time is in most cases likely to be less than UK law defined driving time
what plod seems to not say is that EU law trumps UK law … hopefully that might change if we sod off out the EU !
Are they saying that the new digi tachos switch automatically to duty when the vehicle stops for whatever reason.Which would obviously be an illegal flaw. 
While surely there’s no difference between EU v Domestic in that stopping at traffic lights or running in stop start traffic counts as driving just as driving off road in the yard shunting counts as driving ?.In just the same way as switching the mode switch,on the old analogue tachos,to duty every time it stopped at lights etc would obviously be an offence.
CF - have ever driven a vehicle with a digital tachograph? The only reason why I ask is from the above post it would appear not. Nor had you read any of Wheelnutt’s posts 
F-reds:
CF - have ever driven a vehicle with a digital tachograph? The only reason why I ask is from the above post it would appear not. Nor had you read any of Wheelnutt’s posts
No I’ve never driven anything with a digital tacho.Which still leaves the question how could the EU possibly sanction any method of recording,which supposedly counts what is obviously driving time,as not driving time ?. As I said running in stop start traffic or stopping at traffic lights etc etc all counting as driving time and recorded as such whether it was log books or tachographs.
It was fairly obvious, because that’s exactly how they work.
Last week, I left a drop at Horse Guards Avenue Whitehall with 1:32 left on my clock until I was due a break. More than 2 hours later I got back to my depot, with about 15 minutes left before I needed to take a break. All due to some very bad London traffic.
But perfectly legal by the system.
F-reds:
It was fairly obvious, because that’s exactly how they work.Last week, I left a drop at Horse Guards Avenue Whitehall with 1:32 left on my clock until I was due a break. More than 2 hours later I got back to my depot, with about 15 minutes left before I needed to take a break. All due to some very bad London traffic.
But perfectly legal by the system.
A perfect example of the what the copper means ( not that I agree with him ) .
Punchy Dan:
F-reds:
It was fairly obvious, because that’s exactly how they work.Last week, I left a drop at Horse Guards Avenue Whitehall with 1:32 left on my clock until I was due a break. More than 2 hours later I got back to my depot, with about 15 minutes left before I needed to take a break. All due to some very bad London traffic.
But perfectly legal by the system.
A perfect example of the what the copper means ( not that I agree with him ) .
Absolutely what he meant. BUT as I said they can’t provide you with a calibrated, driving time counter, and then disregard what it says willy nilly.
F-reds:
Punchy Dan:
F-reds:
It was fairly obvious, because that’s exactly how they work.Last week, I left a drop at Horse Guards Avenue Whitehall with 1:32 left on my clock until I was due a break. More than 2 hours later I got back to my depot, with about 15 minutes left before I needed to take a break. All due to some very bad London traffic.
But perfectly legal by the system.
A perfect example of the what the copper means ( not that I agree with him ) .
Absolutely what he meant. BUT as I said they can’t provide you with a calibrated, driving time counter, and then disregard what it says willy nilly.
The issue is the idea of a tacho that doesn’t count time running in stop start traffic or waiting at traffic lights and give way lines etc as ‘driving time’ when it clearly is.Just as switching an analogue tacho to duty in those situations would have been an offence.
Having said that I don’t agree either not because the copper is wrong by the letter of the law but because I don’t agree with the seperate driving time limit.But while that limit remains then the idea of such situations not being recorded as driving time is/should be illegal.
Carryfast:
F-reds:
CF - have ever driven a vehicle with a digital tachograph? The only reason why I ask is from the above post it would appear not. Nor had you read any of Wheelnutt’s postsNo I’ve never driven anything with a digital tacho.Which still leaves the question how could the EU possibly sanction any method of recording,which supposedly counts what is obviously driving time,as not driving time ?.
What counts as driving time is different in EU to domestic
stevieboy308:
What counts as driving time is different in EU to domestic
The obvious question then is since when didn’t being stopped in heavy slow moving traffic,or at traffic lights, or give way lines etc etc,count as driving time under EU regs ?.
EC Reg 561/2006 clearly defines “driving time” to be the time automatically recorded as such by the tachograph - IOW the way the tachograph works is specifically included in their definition.
‘driving time’ means the duration of driving activity
recorded:
— automatically or semi-automatically by the recording
equipment as defined in Annex I and Annex IB
of Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85, or
— manually as required by Article 16(2) of Regulation
(EEC) No 3821/85;
Roymondo:
EC Reg 561/2006 clearly defines “driving time” to be the time automatically recorded as such by the tachograph - IOW the way the tachograph works is specifically included in their definition.‘driving time’ means the duration of driving activity
recorded:
— automatically or semi-automatically by the recording
equipment as defined in Annex I and Annex IB
of Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85, or
— manually as required by Article 16(2) of Regulation
(EEC) No 3821/85;
Which,assuming a digi tacho can only record the time when the vehicle is actually rolling as ‘driving’,effectively means that there’s a contradiction in the definition of ‘driving’ regards manual entries as opposed to ‘automatically’ recorded ones.Which obviously applies regardless of whether it’s EU or domestic rules.In that time spent waiting at lights,or at give way lines or in slow stop start traffic etc couldn’t be entered as duty time either in a log book or by an analogue tacho mode switch.
In other words the worst of all worlds situation of pointless driving time limits enforced by equipment that isn’t even capable of providing a proper record of ‘driving’ time anyway v log books or manually switched tachos.
As for the moaning copper.The answer is/was obviously be careful what you wish for regards log books or manually switched analogue tachos as opposed to digi tachos. 
Carryfast:
Which,assuming a digi tacho can only record the time when the vehicle is actually rolling as ‘driving’,
But as has been explained earlier, that’s not the case. It’s quite possible for a digi tacho to record “driving” time even when the vehicle is stationary, with no keys in the ignition and the driver is out of the cab having a pee…
Roymondo:
Carryfast:
Which,assuming a digi tacho can only record the time when the vehicle is actually rolling as ‘driving’,But as has been explained earlier, that’s not the case. It’s quite possible for a digi tacho to record “driving” time even when the vehicle is stationary, with no keys in the ignition and the driver is out of the cab having a pee…
At which point I’ve lost the plot as to what is it that the copper is actually moaning about in that case. Is it that the thing records time spent stopped at lights or give way lines or in stop start traffic as duty.Or is it that it doesn’t know the difference between duty time doing pre trip checks etc etc v waiting in traffic at traffic lights in that duty could be recorded as driving and vice versa.
If you’d been driving a digi-equipped vehicle for a year or two, you’d understand it easily enough.
Older digi tachos would happily record driving time when the wheels were not actually turning. In essence - the tacho looks at each calendar minute individually, and if the wheels turned at all in that minute (even one revolution), the whole minute was logged as “driving time”. In addition, if the preceding minute and the following minute were both recorded as “driving” under the aforementioned logic, then all three minutes would be recorded as “driving” even if there was no movement at all during the second minute. Under this scheme, it was quite possible for the vehicle to remain stationary for almost a full three minutes (i.e. enough time to get out and go for a pee) yet still be recorded as three minutes of continuous “driving time”.
This was unpopular with some drivers as they regarded it as “stealing” their allowed driving time.
Hence the introduction of the newer type digi tachos. These look at each calendar minute individually, and if the wheels were turning during most of that minute, it is logged as “driving time”. If there was less than 30 seconds of movement, the minute is logged as “other work” (although it is possible to take advantage of this and, by switching it straight back to Break, to actually move the vehicle briefly without recording any interruption to your break). Drivers tend to like this style of tacho…
wheelnutt:
Rjan:
bald bloke:
“Driving” for drivers hours’ rules purposes must mean the time during which the vehicle is actually being driven onwards, not time at the wheel.No it doesn’t, any tacho installed after 2011 uses the new rules. Please keep up in the back, the change is five years old. isn’t it time you familiarised yourself with the current tacho rules■■?
no rules have changed at all. 
Roymondo:
Hence the introduction of the newer type digi tachos. These look at each calendar minute individually, and if the wheels were turning during most of that minute, it is logged as “driving time”. If there was less than 30 seconds of movement, the minute is logged as “other work” (although it is possible to take advantage of this and, by switching it straight back to Break, to actually move the vehicle briefly without recording any interruption to your break). Drivers tend to like this style of tacho…
Thanks for the explanation.So effectively there’s no actual direct link between actual driving time v duty in the case of a digi tacho either in the case of the wagon actually moving and it recording driving time as duty on an arbitrary basis.Nor any responsibility on the driver to provide an accurate record either as in the case of log books or use of the mode switch on an analogue tacho.
So for the copper’s information.-
It’s gone from a world of log books in which ‘drivers’ ‘tended to like’ the idea of booking extra break time as driving while also booking ‘all driving’,including traffic light stops and stop start heavy traffic,as ‘driving’. 
Then at least tachos which more or less did the same but with the added safeguard of showing if the truck actually moved while it was switched to duty or break.But with the double edged sword of also showing the guvnor if the truck was parked up on break while it should have been moving thereby actually adding to the issue of fatigue.
To now one in which the new generation of drivers ‘tend to like’ the idea of the tacho recording driving as duty or possibly even break.That’s supposedly progress and as I said be careful what you wish for. 
It’s not that they like being able to record driving as break - more that they like the fact that a (very brief) but necessary movement of the vehicle doesn’t mean they have to restart their break. No more “sorry mate - can’t move the truck because I’m on a break…”