Speed limits

NEW AND WANNABE DRIVERS (INTERACTIVE)
1

Now I don’t want to suggest for a minute that, as a car driver, I hadn’t previously read and absorbed every word of the Highway Code.

But if pushed, I might admit that before reading up on lgv licences, I had thought that the speed limit for big lorries (7.5t plus) on single carriageways was 50 (and for that matter, 60 on duel carriageways and motorways).

I rode a motorbike for several years, which convinced me that it would be sensible for everyone to have to ride a bike before obtaining a full car licence - on a bike, lack of observation and concentration is far more dangerous than in a car. On a bike I learned about the ‘lifesaver’ (the over the right shoulder look) and so it’s natural to do it in a car. As a car driver, I’m far more aware of bikes and what they are doing (and are likely to do) than I would be if I’d never ridden a bike.

Since reading up on lgv driving, I’m starting to think that lgv training, at least as far as theory is concerned, should be part of the car licence test, for the same reason. I have already learned things that makes me more aware of what lgv drivers are doing and why, and the challenges they face. I’m not talking about idiot drivers - there are idiot lgv drivers on the road just as there are idiot car drivers and idiot bike riders - but about the majority of ‘careful’ drivers.

I put ‘careful’ in quotes because there’s no point believing that ‘careful’ is the same as ‘strictly adhering to the rules of the road’; nor that the way you have to drive to pass a driving test for any vehicle is the same as the way you drive ‘normally’.

Back to speeding. On the one hand there’s the law; on the other there’s sensible practice. Before…errrm…‘refreshing’ my knowledge of speed limits, there may have been one or two occasions in the past when I’ve been just a tad impatient with the lgv driving ahead of me at 40 on a single carriageway that’s an easy road with good vis but enough traffic to make overtaking difficult. Some of that impatience was because I thought the limit for lorries was 50, reinforced by the fact that I’ve followed numerous other lorries doing 50 or even 60 on that road.

So, the questions. Firstly, assuming weather, road, driving and traffic conditions allow it, is it ‘real world’ practice to ‘maintain progress’ at a reasonable speed rather than stick rigidly to the speed limit, in order, among other things, to prevent hold ups and delays and reduce the frustration of car drivers and the risk that they may overtake unsafely - especially since most of them won’t know that the lgv’s legal speed limit on that road is only 40. I’m not asking anyone to condone breaking the law on speed limits; it’s more a debating point about ‘read world’ driving speeds.

Secondly, if a lgv does travel at, say, 45-50 on a single carriageway, would that not show up easily on the tacho and thus lead to a conviction for speeding? I presume that isn’t the case, otherwise no lgv driver would risk driving over the speed limits. On motorways I’ve seen lgvs doing 70. Since the max for lgvs on any road is 60, surely that would be instantly seen on the tacho?

Just questions - please don’t think I have it in mind to pass my test and then see how fast I can drive a lgv around the M25. I do understand that driving a lgv is completely different to driving a car, and not just because of the size of the thing.

Cheers…M

2

MartinC:
So, the questions. Firstly, assuming weather, road, driving and traffic conditions allow it, is it ‘real world’ practice to ‘maintain progress’ at a reasonable speed rather than stick rigidly to the speed limit, in order, among other things, to prevent hold ups and delays and reduce the frustration of car drivers and the risk that they may overtake unsafely - especially since most of them won’t know that the lgv’s legal speed limit on that road is only 40. I’m not asking anyone to condone breaking the law on speed limits; it’s more a debating point about ‘read world’ driving speeds.

Many do drive safely to the road conditions but illegally, especially on SC roads BUT, it’s your licence you are potentially puttting at risk - how much do you want to keep it :question:

MartinC:
Secondly, if a lgv does travel at, say, 45-50 on a single carriageway, would that not show up easily on the tacho and thus lead to a conviction for speeding? I presume that isn’t the case, otherwise no lgv driver would risk driving over the speed limits. On motorways I’ve seen lgvs doing 70. Since the max for lgvs on any road is 60, surely that would be instantly seen on the tacho?

Apart from one case I know of, where drivers for a local haulier were done on tacho evidence as they were speeding within a few miles of the depot where no roads over 40 were present (locals complained), then tacho evidence can be used, if a Judge sees fit, to back up other evidence.
Prosecuting on tacho evidence alone, apart from the case I cited above, has never been done as far as I know.
I googled for such a case and found nothing.

3

I see your point fully, but even though in the real world when it is perfectly safe to do 45mph on a SC, you could still be pulled over and liable for points and fine. IMO it’s not worth it… especially as my license is my living. With good planning in the transport office there should be no reason to speed whatsoever.

Cheers. Phil

4

Hi Rog and Phil

Thanks both.

In answer to the question how much do I want to keep my licence, the response is ‘very much’.

I understand about tachos being used as supporting evidence but not primary evidence, although I would have thought that if it showed 70 it would be pretty conclusive.

I have been driving a car or riding a bike for more than 30 years and have kept my licence clean throughout that time. I don’t pretend that there’s no element of ‘luck’ in that, but even so.

Since the advent of speed cameras, particularly, I rarely speed. Even before that I usually drove within the limit since it is, among other things, more relaxing than having to constantly be alert to the possibility of unmarked police cars (and I know that isn’t a ‘major’ reason for sticking to the limit).

Of course, as in all areas of life nothing is strictly black and white and there are times when you need to ‘get a move on’ - with increased concentration and still within the limits of the car, yourself and the road conditions, but knowing and accepting the risk you are running to your licence if caught speeding.

I also know that when I’m driving I’m in control, and won’t be ‘pushed’ by others into driving unsafely or breaking the law. As I said, as a debating point about ‘real world’ practice, I was trying to find out some realities of life on the road. Of course, any decision on speed and anything else is mine alone. But I don’t particularly want to end up irritating other lgv drivers and car drivers by sticking rigidly to 40 like a numpty if the road would allow 45-50. I know…don’t do things because of pressure from others…but in order not to do things that would frustrate others and perhaps encourage them to take risks, then if I was travelling at 40 with a long queue behind me (especially if light flashing, horn blowing and two-finger saluting was evident from behind) then I’d be tempted to pull into a layby and let the queue past…but if I did that it would be very difficult to ‘make progress’ on my own journey.

Just thinking aloud really. At the end of the day I know that I am responsible for my own actions.

Cheers…M

5

MartinC:
I’d be tempted to pull into a layby and let the queue past…but if I did that it would be very difficult to ‘make progress’ on my own journey.

Each situation is unique and you would have to decide the safest course of action at the time and balance that action against a little lost time.
IMO, in this age of general traffic hold ups, traffic lights etc, etc then I don’t think it makes much difference to the overall journey time if a driver pulls over a few times during the day to let the queue go by.

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An excellent point Rog, and well taken.

Cheers…M

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MartinC:
I rode a motorbike for several years, which convinced me that it would be sensible for everyone to have to ride a bike before obtaining a full car licence

Hey up I am begining to like you, I have said this for nearly 40yrs.

MartinC:
I’ve seen lgvs doing 70.

Bet they had european plates on them.

I have never seen the point in breaking the speed limit, as most of the time we as drivers are paid by the hour and I wanted to earn as much as I could.

Having said that the 40 limit on most SC is a farce and has been and indeed is being discussed yet again to increase it to 50MPH we live in hope.

I like Rog have never known any one being stuck on for speeding retrospectively (indeed i don’t believe you can be) on tacho evidence, but if any other offence has been committed then it can be taken into account.

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Hi DA

I have said this for nearly 40yrs

Nice one.

I was once crawling…and I do mean crawling…up the outside of a line of stationary cars during a rush hour journey. My front wheel was just about level with the back o/s wheel of a car in the queue when the driver…we’ll call him Plonker for short…suddenly whipped the steering wheel round without any warning and without troubling himself with any of that checking-of-mirrors or looking-over-the-shoulder or signalling-your-intention-to-other-road-users stuff and left the queue at a rapid pace, thinking he could drive on the other side of the road to overtake about five of the queued cars and get to the next right hand turn before the bus coming the other way reached him.

He didn’t reach the right hand turn but my front wheel reached his o/s/f wing, causing nothing more than a bruise of rubber on paint to his door but it was enough to jerk my front wheel sideways and tip me off onto the deck, right leg trapped under 650cc of Suzi. I may have moaned a bit due to the pain caused by my ribs landing on my bent elbow, which did disconcert him nicely as he kept saying ‘get up get up’ in a slightly panicky voice, but the fall had winded me so I couldn’t even speak to him let alone move for a few moments. No damage to his car, not much to the bike other than scratching, a broken mirror, twisted handlebars, and not much to me other than bruising and hurt pride and a bit of scuffed leather.

But that only has to happen once for you to believe that riding a bike, and the improved observation and things like the ‘lifesaver’ look before moving, should be taught before anyone gets a full car licence.

Funny, I haven’t thought about that small accident in years.

As to speeding, I don’t intend to - but in terms of limits for lgvs, I think a change to 50 for SC and 60 for DC and Mway would be sensible. But what do I know, I don’t even have an lgv licence. Yet.

Cheers…M