Carryfast:
Gillberry:
And how many can feel the steering getting light etc ?
How do you teach these skills when all around we are being told to buy winter tyres at this time of year ?
Admittedly not all of the older generation possess the skills to deal with adverse conditions but the younger generation added to them means that millimetres of snow and everything grinds to a halt winter tyres or not .
Opposite lock isn’t generally going to be an option or even the answer when a modern fwd heap on its silly longitudinal cut ‘tread’ and the rest effectively slick tyres loses traction at the front wheels then swings out the back when the power is cut.Or even let’s go at both ends at once.Leaving the only option ( hope ) of power under steer not reaching unmanageable levels to the point of no steer which it inevitably does with the things.Which is why the ■■■■■■ Mk 1/2 was one of the best rally cars in history.IE older generation car control generally goes with rwd.While in the case of fwd all bets are off. 
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
I probably passed Maoster as he was parked in Bridgwater today;maybe even stationary looking at him.My journey (by car) from Okehampton to Wakefield normally takes 4hr 20mins(starting at 11.30) took a full 8 hours until 19.30.Ye gods.The weather was sunny with blue skies from Exeter to Worcester.I don’t recall seeing such traffic levels outside rush hour in london.
Gillberry:
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
That’s the point.The large proportion of fwd cars combined with silly modern tyres generally means a preventative driving style of cutting power well before any potential loss of traction and resulting loss of steering in addition to the issue of the need to avoid lift off over steer and resulting sliding at the rear.Therefore the catch 22 of loss of momentum then requiring more acceleration to maintain progress etc etc.
As opposed to the often absolute liberties which can/could be taken with rwd cars,especially with old school tyres,and their resulting ability to maintain more forward momentum because they can still be steered even when traction has been lost.Therefore removing the issue of traffic often slowing down to the point where it can no longer maintain progress and gets bogged down.Ironically modern day drivers having been brainwashed into thinking that a few long ago and unrepresentative successes of BMC and SAAB in rallying means that fwd is supposedly superior.As opposed to it being a liabilty in the real world that’s causing many of these problems.
Carryfast:
Gillberry:
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
That’s the point.The large proportion of fwd cars combined with silly modern tyres generally means a preventative driving style of cutting power well before any potential loss of traction and resulting loss of steering in addition to the issue of the need to avoid lift off over steer and resulting sliding at the rear.Therefore the catch 22 of loss of momentum then requiring more acceleration to maintain progress etc etc.
As opposed to the often absolute liberties which can/could be taken with rwd cars,especially with old school tyres,and their resulting ability to maintain more forward momentum because they can still be steered even when traction has been lost.Therefore removing the issue of traffic often slowing down to the point where it can no longer maintain progress and gets bogged down.Ironically modern day drivers having been brainwashed into thinking that a few long ago and unrepresentative successes of BMC and SAAB in rallying means that fwd is supposedly superior.As opposed to it being a liabilty in the real world that’s causing many of these problems.
If you’re going to compare driving in snow to a rally stage, shouldn’t you also be advocating we use 4wd cars instead of 2wd, as I don’t think a 2wd car has won the WRC for 30+ years?
And I also doubt most modern drivers have any knowledge of Saab rally cars or even much of early mini rally cars and I know the modern varient of the Mini rally car was 4WD.
muckles:
Carryfast:
Gillberry:
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
That’s the point.The large proportion of fwd cars combined with silly modern tyres generally means a preventative driving style of cutting power well before any potential loss of traction and resulting loss of steering in addition to the issue of the need to avoid lift off over steer and resulting sliding at the rear.Therefore the catch 22 of loss of momentum then requiring more acceleration to maintain progress etc etc.
As opposed to the often absolute liberties which can/could be taken with rwd cars,especially with old school tyres,and their resulting ability to maintain more forward momentum because they can still be steered even when traction has been lost.Therefore removing the issue of traffic often slowing down to the point where it can no longer maintain progress and gets bogged down.Ironically modern day drivers having been brainwashed into thinking that a few long ago and unrepresentative successes of BMC and SAAB in rallying means that fwd is supposedly superior.As opposed to it being a liabilty in the real world that’s causing many of these problems.
If you’re going to compare driving in snow to a rally stage, shouldn’t you also be advocating we use 4wd cars instead of 2wd, as I don’t think a 2wd car has won the WRC for 30+ years?
And I also doubt most modern drivers have any knowledge of Saab rally cars or even much of early mini rally cars and I know the modern varient of the Mini rally car was 4WD.
The point still being to drive accordingly rather than assuming that the gadgets and gizmos on the car will help you . Winter tyres being the item cited for the conditions whereas no doubt they have a benefit you still need to drive accordingly the same with 4 wheel drive . An understanding of your conditions and vehicle is needed which is what seems to be lacking in most cases .
Carryfast:
Gillberry:
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
That’s the point.The large proportion of fwd cars combined with silly modern tyres generally means a preventative driving style of cutting power well before any potential loss of traction and resulting loss of steering in addition to the issue of the need to avoid lift off over steer and resulting sliding at the rear.Therefore the catch 22 of loss of momentum then requiring more acceleration to maintain progress etc etc.
As opposed to the often absolute liberties which can/could be taken with rwd cars,especially with old school tyres,and their resulting ability to maintain more forward momentum because they can still be steered even when traction has been lost.Therefore removing the issue of traffic often slowing down to the point where it can no longer maintain progress and gets bogged down.Ironically modern day drivers having been brainwashed into thinking that a few long ago and unrepresentative successes of BMC and SAAB in rallying means that fwd is supposedly superior.As opposed to it being a liabilty in the real world that’s causing many of these problems.
The only time when rwd is better, is when you go drifting.
As for your ludicrous position that ‘old school tyres’ are better than modern tyres, that shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
the nodding donkey:
Carryfast:
Gillberry:
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
That’s the point.The large proportion of fwd cars combined with silly modern tyres generally means a preventative driving style of cutting power well before any potential loss of traction and resulting loss of steering in addition to the issue of the need to avoid lift off over steer and resulting sliding at the rear.Therefore the catch 22 of loss of momentum then requiring more acceleration to maintain progress etc etc.
As opposed to the often absolute liberties which can/could be taken with rwd cars,especially with old school tyres,and their resulting ability to maintain more forward momentum because they can still be steered even when traction has been lost.Therefore removing the issue of traffic often slowing down to the point where it can no longer maintain progress and gets bogged down.Ironically modern day drivers having been brainwashed into thinking that a few long ago and unrepresentative successes of BMC and SAAB in rallying means that fwd is supposedly superior.As opposed to it being a liabilty in the real world that’s causing many of these problems.
The only time when rwd is better, is when you go drifting.
As for your ludicrous position that ‘old school tyres’ are better than modern tyres, that shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Not necessarily old school tyres but skinny wheels compared to modern wide low profile tyres do have better traction . I witnessed this at a classic car show a few years ago where all the cars drove up the muddy incline with minimal spin compared to all the more moderns who got stuck .
Skinny tyres can be an advantage, but only in a few circumstances. It all depends on multiple conditions. Tyre pressures, thread pattern, thread depth, surface, driver skill, vehicle horse power…
Gillberry:
muckles:
Carryfast:
Gillberry:
Granted opposite lock only applies to a few modern cars but feeling the vehicle you are driving as in steering light etc still applies and adjusting your driving accordingly to deal with the situation is just as relevant .
That’s the point.The large proportion of fwd cars combined with silly modern tyres generally means a preventative driving style of cutting power well before any potential loss of traction and resulting loss of steering in addition to the issue of the need to avoid lift off over steer and resulting sliding at the rear.Therefore the catch 22 of loss of momentum then requiring more acceleration to maintain progress etc etc.
As opposed to the often absolute liberties which can/could be taken with rwd cars,especially with old school tyres,and their resulting ability to maintain more forward momentum because they can still be steered even when traction has been lost.Therefore removing the issue of traffic often slowing down to the point where it can no longer maintain progress and gets bogged down.Ironically modern day drivers having been brainwashed into thinking that a few long ago and unrepresentative successes of BMC and SAAB in rallying means that fwd is supposedly superior.As opposed to it being a liabilty in the real world that’s causing many of these problems.
If you’re going to compare driving in snow to a rally stage, shouldn’t you also be advocating we use 4wd cars instead of 2wd, as I don’t think a 2wd car has won the WRC for 30+ years?
And I also doubt most modern drivers have any knowledge of Saab rally cars or even much of early mini rally cars and I know the modern varient of the Mini rally car was 4WD.
The point still being to drive accordingly rather than assuming that the gadgets and gizmos on the car will help you . Winter tyres being the item cited for the conditions whereas no doubt they have a benefit you still need to drive accordingly the same with 4 wheel drive . An understanding of your conditions and vehicle is needed which is what seems to be lacking in most cases .
Your point we should drive to the conditions, and I can’t disagree with you on that.
Carryfast’s point is we should all be driving in the 1960’s, 
which might be quite nice in theory with those levels of traffic, but a bit unrealistic. 
the nodding donkey:
Skinny tyres can be an advantage, but only in a few circumstances. It all depends on multiple conditions. Tyre pressures, thread pattern, thread depth, surface, driver skill, vehicle horse power…
Change skinny tyres for winter tyres in your quote and that is the whole point an understanding of conditions and environment is needed and unfortunately missing from most drivers .
the nodding donkey:
Skinny tyres can be an advantage, but only in a few circumstances. It all depends on multiple conditions. Tyre pressures, thread pattern, thread depth, surface, driver skill, vehicle horse power…
They use skinny tyres for rallying in snow and ice, but normal sized tyres for other conditions, but for normal road cars in the UK, it’s a bit unrealistic to change tyres just because it has snowed. However in most conditions modern sized tyres on modern cars will out grip and out handle tyres 1960’s on 1960’s technology.
muckles:
If you’re going to compare driving in snow to a rally stage, shouldn’t you also be advocating we use 4wd cars instead of 2wd, as I don’t think a 2wd car has won the WRC for 30+ years?
And I also doubt most modern drivers have any knowledge of Saab rally cars or even much of early mini rally cars and I know the modern varient of the Mini rally car was 4WD.
Realistically in the interests of general affordability we’re comparing the same ‘advantages’ which made the rwd mk 1/2 ■■■■■■ a better rally car than the fwd Mini or SAAB.Based on the premise that fwd is the predominant type on the roads and you can’t steer a fwd car when it’s on/past the limits of traction unlike a rwd car.In addition to the issue of lift off over steer when you cut the power in the case of a fwd car.So loads of justifiably scared drivers pottering around reducing momentum thereby increasing all those problems of loss of traction v steering to get moving again.
the nodding donkey:
The only time when rwd is better, is when you go drifting.
As for your ludicrous position that ‘old school tyres’ are better than modern tyres, that shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Yes drifting you know proof that a rwd car can be steered when it’s lost traction unlike a fwd car and it also won’t spin out if the power is reduced.
As for old school tyres you did see the comparative tread patterns of a typical old Michelin XWX v a modern Continental.Are you seriously suggesting that the latter is better in snow. 
muckles:
However in most conditions modern sized tyres on modern cars will out grip and out handle tyres 1960’s on 1960’s technology.
We’re talking about snow specifically in which case how does a modern effectively slick with longitudinal cut tread pattern get traction in snow v a typical old tyre block tread pattern ?.
Carryfast:
muckles:
However in most conditions modern sized tyres on modern cars will out grip and out handle tyres 1960’s on 1960’s technology.
We’re talking about snow specifically in which case how does a modern effectively slick with longitudinal cut tread pattern get traction in snow v a typical old tyre block tread pattern ?.
So we go back to skinny tyres on old tread patterns all year, so a few people who can’t drive can get a bit of grip on the half a dozen or so days a year we have snow?
Carryfast:
the nodding donkey:
The only time when rwd is better, is when you go drifting.
As for your ludicrous position that ‘old school tyres’ are better than modern tyres, that shows that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Yes drifting you know proof that a rwd car can be steered when it’s lost traction unlike a fwd car and it also won’t spin out if the power is reduced.
Instead the average driver on snow or ice in a RWD car just oversteers and ends up going off the road backwards.
muckles:
So we go back to skinny tyres on old tread patterns all year, so a few people who can’t drive can get a bit of grip on the half a dozen or so days a year we have snow?
Don’t see any reason why the old Michelin XWX tread pattern couldn’t be applied to modern type wide tyres with the same decent V speed rating if not more for example.
muckles:
.
Instead the average driver on snow or ice in a RWD car just oversteers and ends up going off the road backwards.
Meanwhile in the real world check out the Morris pick up running up the hill v the stuck fwd’s at 3.19 - 3.25.Must have held a super Racing licence like all the others. 
youtube.com/watch?v=DalYSIRU4rQ
Never had the need or desire to fit Winter Tyres; in our climate it’s an expense that’s not worth the hassle. I find those who advocate the compulsory fitting of Winter Tyres as those who believe such tyres will allow them to carry on driving as though it’s summer without any consideration for the conditions.