I recall Robo-k had other irons in the fire a few weeks back - was giving up driving and meeting dogs and men in Luton or Bedford?. Since then, he’s posted about his assessment drive - so he’s back to driving, and now he’s qualified to talk AT owner drivers that have to do a lot more than drive a truck! He might make more money doing that — but he’s clearly hankering for a change of life — probably beats himself up every night. If I interviewed him, we probably wouldn’t need to go for an assesment drive — I need to protect the no claims bonus!
I’m with Paulb on this one. I skimmed the arguments re the “when I was a lad….rates ….etc etc) — it doesn’t have a lot of relevance for me — I live for the present and the future. Life today always ■■■■■ when people reminisce! We learn lessons from the past — the past will never be relived.
If a days work (in context of the big picture) won’t pay me, the diesel and the standing costs, then I sit at home, do some marketing, look for other avenues etc. When I get bored of that, I read Robo-k’s posts- Walter Mitty and the Grim Reaper must be fearing the competition!
If you don’t pass the diesel increase on by increasing prices, then your increased variable costs (cogs) will reduce your gross profit. So, to maintain the net profit, you will have to reduce your standing costs. Then you’re chasing your own tail — in business, stagnation is regression. You can’t sustain this in the long term.
If every hauler passed on the diesel cost, and that cost was reflected in the high street, then inflation would overtake Gordon’s target, and perhaps the extra revenue he raises from duty and vat (for the punters) might need to come down a shade. We all know a certain amount of tax has to collected — the higher duty revenue, + vat, on fuel is a a back passage way of doing it.
PaulB, Dennis, BigJoe, Coffee etc seem to be more in tune with my way of thinking (and not just on this thread).
paul b:
you can’t blame a bloke for taking a job on at rock bottom rates if he’s committed to one or more wagons on finance, those wagons have got to go out and at least cover their costs.
You’ve hit the nail on the head there mate, the explosion of contract hire deals from the early 90’s on has’nt helped at all. As a former contract hirer I’ve yet to be convinced of its merits, If you own a truck outright or even to a lesser extent are buying it on finance, its much easier to park it up and wait for the right rates, rather than take it out just to cover the weekly hire cost and hope it picks up next week. Tax deductable maybe, but no profits=no tax as well.
There’s very little difference in monthly costs between Contract Hire and HP, so let’s face it, if you have to find that payment, your Truck has to go out! The trick is to build yourself a cushion so you can say to your customer/yourself. I am not going out today, just to pay my finance, and fuel. I’ll Have a quality day with my family, or do some of them ‘when I get a quiet day’ jobs
just wondering how many actual owner drivers there are? i don’t mean small haulage firms with three or four wagons, i mean the true one man band, one wagon, go out and try and earn a living men. it would be hard to guess, five thousand? ten thousand? i don’t know if theres a way of finding out but i’d wager it’s far less than some people think especially if you then broke it down to those who sub full time and have no real say in the rates,as i do and those that actually find their own work. i call my self an owner driver which is true, i have my own o’license, truck, i sort my own tax etc but the bulk of my work and the work i rely on to make it pay is subbed off a big firm who have a contract for the work, i have no say in the rates or how the jobs done, yeh at odd times, i’ve got a confirmation note and not been happy with a certain rate, gone back and by hook or by crook they’ve got me more money for the job but really, all i am is a glorified company driver with his own wagon.
there was a fella on the radio the other day, a so called expert, who claimed that the price of fuel wasn’t the real problem, it was o/d’s under cutting each other and leaving nothing in the job, is there really that many out there, that they can influence an entire industry?
Paul, you seem surprised that’s it’s owner driver’s that play a big part in holding the rates down. Let me just ask you a question then. Why do we have freight forwarder’s ?
why do we have freight forwarders? well, i suppose primarily they are used by companies who don’t want the grief of organissing their own haulage, the freight forwarder gives a price and a gaurantee of moving the load then tries to sell it on, making a profit in the bargain. is it just o/d’s that work for these forwarders? you’d be supprissed at how many larger firms use these setups for back loads!
so is it the o/d’s keeping the rates down by taking what work is available, is it the unlicensed freight forwarders or is it the backload culture instigated by the freight forwarders which in turn allows them to make a profit out of what started out as a regular haulage job?
To me freight forwarders are related to vultures, it is all too easy to set up as a freight forwarder. There is a bloke in this sleepy little village who was running a back load agency. I know that a lot of big companies suffered, but I dont see him starving. In fact there are still a couple of his vehicles parked in the pub yard. The rates cannot stand anyone taking 10 or 15 percent out of them anymore. FF should be licensed and have serious credit checks done against them before they are allowed to trade.
As for owner drivers, to me an owner driver is a bloke who has his own licence, organises his own maintenance and lays under the truck every weekend with a spanner and a grease gun.
He has his own CPC / Operators licence, / permits etc and doesnt use the services of these consultants, who are in the same mould as freight forwarders.
i’m glad to hear it, i’ve just had three hours on mine! in some strange way i actually enjoy working on it, theres nothing worse than going down the road knowing somethings not right.
going back to the freight forwarders, it seems incredible that in an industry so ■■■■■■■ in red tape that these people can get away with what they do!
theres a bloke near me, been at it years and like so many went bust owing thousands to subbies and haulage firms, yet here he is doing the same job again and under cutting everyone! if theres one thing that will change the industry overnight it would be to get rid of these parasites by making it ilegal to operate without the necessary license, which could only be gained with the same requirements as an o’license.
But it comes full circle Paul. At the end of the day they’re in business to make money and while ever numpty glory-boy owner driver’s keep starting up with their V8 Scania’s and the like, with no DIRECT work already sorted, the freight forwarder’s will continue to flourish as those are the places they all flock to to get work … and many of them don’t even pay a quid a mile .
So… yes, it is the owner driver’s that are playing a huge part in holding the rates down.
I also include haulage companies in the “freight forwarder” bracket too, because at the end of the day they’re doing exactly the same thing. Eg. owner driver’s working for 63p per mile taking axles out to Turin through Archbold’s, who in turn are doing the job for DANA (who are paying Archbold’s circa £4000 per trip) and making an absolute killing out of it.
two sides to the coin, i work for a bigish firm, now they’ve got a contract with the steel works, a contract that only someone with their rep, size and finacial clout would be considered for, they in turn sub contrcat work to me and take their cut out of the original rate but the rates i get are very good so i’m doing ok.
thats good business all ways round. the thing is, i run along side their own wagons so they’ve not gone in ridiculously cheap knowing they’re gona sub the work out to “numpty” owner drivers they’ve gone in at rates they know they’ll earn good money at!
i think you’ll find that the vast majority of o/d’s are doing exactly the same as me and have no real control over rates. the idea of all these thousands of o/d’s
under cutting each other for a job and doing it for nothing might make good listening on the vine show but hasn’t got much to do with reality!
renaultman:
There’s very little difference in monthly costs between Contract Hire and HP, so let’s face it, if you have to find that payment, your Truck has to go out! The trick is to build yourself a cushion so you can say to your customer/yourself. I am not going out today, just to pay my finance, and fuel. I’ll Have a quality day with my family, or do some of them ‘when I get a quiet day’ jobs
I agree with you to a point, but to park a vehicle on contract hire seems like dead money, if you park a motor your buying on finance you can console yourself in the fact that its not accumulating any wear and tear, and choosing not to work is a lot easier to justify. In my way of thinking contract hire is best suited for fixed contract work, or for a larger firm who can have a mix of contract hire and owned vehicles. Then the contract motors can run all the time with the owned trucks mopping up the ■■■ bits.
Rob I’ve been following your comments on O/D’s and their rates & you are always quoting the figure of £1 per mile.
I’d like to ask you
a, Where you get this figure from as I dont know any O/D’s personally working for this little (who do you know who works for this & who are they subbing for?)
b, What you think the rate per mile should be
c, How you come to the above figure ie show how much you think the costs are for running at 44t and how much profit as a percentage of cost you would project at the end of the year
renaultman:
There’s very little difference in monthly costs between Contract Hire and HP, so let’s face it, if you have to find that payment, your Truck has to go out! The trick is to build yourself a cushion so you can say to your customer/yourself. I am not going out today, just to pay my finance, and fuel. I’ll Have a quality day with my family, or do some of them ‘when I get a quiet day’ jobs
I agree with you to a point, but to park a vehicle on contract hire seems like dead money, if you park a motor your buying on finance you can console yourself in the fact that its not accumulating any wear and tear, and choosing not to work is a lot easier to justify. In my way of thinking contract hire is best suited for fixed contract work, or for a larger firm who can have a mix of contract hire and owned vehicles. Then the contract motors can run all the time with the owned trucks mopping up the ■■■ bits.
Point taken, am going to send my 2nd one back, and it will be slightly under target mileage, but not that much that I am worried about it. I am more worried about the extras, they no doubt charge me for knocks and scratches etc.
And VOSA not keen on smell and mess on weigh bridge
Denis i’ve heard that the OTM scheme is being scrapped, do you think that’ll help increace your work even with farm payment changes. I think our lot closed up to early, i’m starting to miss hanging beef loads,
north surrey haulage:
Rob I’ve been following your comments on O/D’s and their rates & you are always quoting the figure of £1 per mile.
I’d like to ask you
a, Where you get this figure from as I dont know any O/D’s personally working for this little (who do you know who works for this & who are they subbing for?)
Er, Denholm’s, Maritime (£1500/week is near enough), same for Hanbury’s (you told me yourself, remember). Majority of traction work on tilt’s pays the same, if not less. De Rijke’s being an example. McBurney’s obviously pay well less than that as has been documented on here many times, same for Norfolk Line. Is that enough for you?
b, What you think the rate per mile should be
Well considering the start up costs, maintenance costs, fixed yearly costs and current diesel prices, for a 44 tonner on long distance work an absolute minimum or £1.50 mile (or equivalent on a per job rate), much better £2 mile or more, obviously. Reading old posts about what the haulage rates used to be 10, 20, 30 years ago, I’m sure the old-hands would probably say it should be even higher than that !
c, How you come to the above figure ie show how much you think the costs are for running at 44t and how much profit as a percentage of cost you would project at the end of the year
Basing this from a number of ‘operating costs’ posts that have been posted on this forums over the past few years; Neil’s post on ‘operating costs’ being an excellent skeleton to work by.
eddie snax:
And VOSA not keen on smell and mess on weigh bridge
that helps
Denis i’ve heard that the OTM scheme is being scrapped, do you think that’ll help increace your work even with farm payment changes. I think our lot closed up to early, i’m starting to miss hanging beef loads,
it’s going to be "interesting " OTM changes along with the whole farm payment changes may just [zb] the whole job
maybe time to dig out the old list of barren cow buyers
Rob K:
Er, Denholm’s, Maritime (£1500/week is near enough), same for Hanbury’s (you told me yourself, remember). Majority of traction work on tilt’s pays the same, if not less. De Rijke’s being an example. McBurney’s obviously pay well less than that as has been documented on here many times, same for Norfolk Line. Is that enough for you?
b, What you think the rate per mile should be
Well considering the start up costs, maintenance costs, fixed yearly costs and current diesel prices, for a 44 tonner on long distance work an absolute minimum or £1.50 mile (or equivalent on a per job rate), much better £2 mile or more, obviously. Reading old posts about what the haulage rates used to be 10, 20, 30 years ago, I’m sure the old-hands would probably say it should be even higher than that !
so basically, you don’t know anyone working for a £1 a mile, you,ve no idea of running costs, only what you,ve read off other people and yet your an expert on owner driving and the haulage business in general
ever thought about a job in politics?
Rob K:
Er, Denholm’s, Maritime (£1500/week is near enough), same for Hanbury’s (you told me yourself, remember). Majority of traction work on tilt’s pays the same, if not less. De Rijke’s being an example. McBurney’s obviously pay well less than that as has been documented on here many times, same for Norfolk Line. Is that enough for you?
b, What you think the rate per mile should be
Well considering the start up costs, maintenance costs, fixed yearly costs and current diesel prices, for a 44 tonner on long distance work an absolute minimum or £1.50 mile (or equivalent on a per job rate), much better £2 mile or more, obviously. Reading old posts about what the haulage rates used to be 10, 20, 30 years ago, I’m sure the old-hands would probably say it should be even higher than that !
so basically, you don’t know anyone working for a £1 a mile, you,ve no idea of running costs, only what you,ve read off other people and yet your an expert on owner driving and the haulage business in general
ever thought about a job in politics?
Er, your selective memory seems to be playing up again Paul. I’ve listed plenty that pay a quid a mile or less and no I’m no expert, but I doubt that Neil will have made the figures up (my reference for start up and running costs), considering he’s got more experience as an o/d than the lot of you put together.
Why are you getting so uppety about it anyway? Is the truth finally starting to hurt, Sean, Paul?
It doesn’t bother me one way or the other. I’m not running about with a wagon for 300hrs per week trying to break even and happily filling up a wagon at a quid a litre like you lot are. You carry on dragging the transport industry down whilst not giving a toss for the rest of us who are struggling to find decent paying work because you lot are running about for 63p-£1 per mile.
I think the appropriate phrase to some up the majority of owner driver’s is, “head stuck in the sand”.
well i’ve been called many things but “uppety” is a new n!
for someone who’s not bothered, you seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on here, an owner drivers forum
unforunately for you, no one is going to come on here, a public forum, and post exact details of what they earn, so you’ll either have to set up your self and have a go or keep guessing.
north surrey haulage:
Rob I’ve been following your comments on O/D’s and their rates & you are always quoting the figure of £1 per mile.
I’d like to ask you
a, Where you get this figure from as I dont know any O/D’s personally working for this little (who do you know who works for this & who are they subbing for?)
Er, Denholm’s, Maritime (£1500/week is near enough), same for Hanbury’s (you told me yourself, remember). Majority of traction work on tilt’s pays the same, if not less. De Rijke’s being an example. McBurney’s obviously pay well less than that as has been documented on here many times, same for Norfolk Line. Is that enough for you?
Well I should remember if I told you I was working for £1 or less per mile but seeing as I have never worked for £1 per mile I think it would be highly unlikely I said that (unless making a sarcastic remark )
I know Hanbury & Maritime both pay more than £1 per mile & I cant see Hanbury Davies working for Norfolk Line for £1 per mile either somehow so I shall enquire from them what their rate is.
Denholm,De Rijke & Mcburneys I dont know about so shall have to ring & ask as I say I dont know anyone working for £1 per mile & nor do you apparently as you have mentioned nobody who you know “works” for these rates but if the companies you mention above are paying the rates you say then it would be of benefit for people looking for work to know the companies to avoid.
b, What you think the rate per mile should be
RobK:
Well considering the start up costs, maintenance costs, fixed yearly costs and current diesel prices, for a 44 tonner on long distance work an absolute minimum or £1.50 mile (or equivalent on a per job rate), much better £2 mile or more, obviously. Reading old posts about what the haulage rates used to be 10, 20, 30 years ago, I’m sure the old-hands would probably say it should be even higher than that !
So you think the rates should be increased by 50 -100 % (based on your own figures).
If everybody is working for the same rate how do you propose to get this much uncrease in the rates?
Reading old post about what the rate was donkeys ago is irrelevant as it has no bearing on business today If it did then maybe we would all be working a 3 day week or British industry would be world renowned for poor quality products and striking production lines.
c, How you come to the above figure ie show how much you think the costs are for running at 44t and how much profit as a percentage of cost you would project at the end of the year
RobK:
Basing this from a number of ‘operating costs’ posts that have been posted on this forums over the past few years; Neil’s post on ‘operating costs’ being an excellent skeleton to work by.
[/quote]
Well I’m sorry to dissapoint you but Neils operating cost are not the same as for running a 44t unit (although there will be some parrallels) which was what the question asked for.
Working for £1.50 per mile would give you how much profit at the end of the year according to your projection?
How much would you “draw” as a wage & how much would you re-invest in the company?
I’d like to see some figures please
.
