http://www.clearingtheairscotland.com/
So, if you light up in your lorry, north of the border, you’ve commited an offence!
I’m a former smoker, who doesn’t allow smoking in my vehicle when I’m in charge, but this is getting beyond a joke. They really are saying, you cannot smoke in your own lorry, even if you’re alone. It’s madness!
paul_eden:
http://www.clearingtheairscotland.com/So, if you light up in your lorry, north of the border, you’ve commited an offence!
I’m a former smoker, who doesn’t allow smoking in my vehicle when I’m in charge, but this is getting beyond a joke. They really are saying, you cannot smoke in your own lorry, even if you’re alone. It’s madness!
clearingtheairscotland:
What about vehicles used for business purposes?
Light goods and heavy goods vehicles and public transportation vehicles (e.g. taxis, buses, trains and ferries) will be affected by the new law. If you use a car (your own or company car) for business purposes, it will be exempt unless you are using it as a private taxi.
.
Why?
heavy goods vehicles
But why not?
company car
I’m an ex-smoker who hates the stink and supports most of this legislation, but the above is just stupid and leaves you wondering how many in the Scottish Parliament drive HGVs, and how many drive company cars 
.
Reps OK, truckers no way 
Salut, David.
Whilst I have not had time to study it, and would need to read the full legislative document, I can already see problems.
Firstly that the publication refers to smoking in ‘Premises’. A vehicle can in no way be construed as premises. A house can be burgled. A houseboat can be burgled, but a motor vehicle cannot, even if it is a motorhome.
Secondly. An HGV is, by definition, a Heavy Motor Car. If smoking is permitted in a Motor Car, then it naturally follows that a Heavy Motor Car carries the same exclusion.
Thirdly. Smoking is permitted in one’s home. To the O/D, their vehicle is their second home. The European Convention on Human Rights affords a right to a ‘Private & Family Life’. (Article 8 - from memory). Penalising an O/D in this manner could be viewed as a breach of that Privacy. Even with the employed driver, there could equally be an argument that Nights Out, either realized or foreseeable in unavoidable circumstances, render the vehicle to become ‘Hotel Accomodation’. The Operator being the Hotelier, and the ‘night out money’ representing compensation for the reduced standard of overnight accomodation in comparison with the expectation of employees within other commercial sectors.
One again the Legislators have set targets (and penalties) aimed at a sector of society that are least able, both financially and time/travel critical, to contest such matters…
Essentially, yet another revenue raising exercise.
Or a simple response would be to tell them to go forth and multiply…an HGV is not a public place (and what’s more, for the pedantic amongst them, LGV’s aren’t even mentioned)
Jules
Playing devils advocate…
Whilst it might not seem right that the cab of a truck is termed as a public place, surely if it is used by more than one person,even at different times, it kinda becomes ‘public’■■
The night man will certainly be able to smell/inhale smoke or smoke residue from the day man and this is perhaps what is being addressed; should anyone have to tolerate ‘unpleasant’ smell/atmosphere??
P.S. I’m an ex-smoker and hate the even the smell of it…but that doesn’t affect my comments… 
I got this same story from our office in Belgium this week.
No smoking while driving a truck, even owner drivers
The bloke who told me said if he is pulled over he will start playing with himself, to see if there is a law about that 
marcustandy:
Playing devils advocate…Whilst it might not seem right that the cab of a truck is termed as a public place, surely if it is used by more than one person,even at different times, it kinda becomes ‘public’■■
Yes but the legislation says ‘one or more people’ .
A truck that is driven by less than one person is a pretty specialised vehicle and will not often be come across by the law enforcers 
.
And even if it was, how often would they find that the driver who wasn’t there and wasn’t driving, was smoking. 
Salut, David.
The legislation covering this subject is actually derived from two sources, the first being the Prohibition of Smoking in Certain Premises (Scotland) Regulations 2006.
This is the ‘enabling’ legislation and in Section 4(2) defines “no-smoking premises”
(2) In this Part, “no-smoking premises” means such premises or such classes of premises, being premises of a kind mentioned in subsection (4), as are prescribed by regulations made by the Scottish Ministers after consulting such persons as they consider appropriate on a draft of the regulations.
and allows Ministers to make to regulations refining the types of premises in subsection (4), which states;
(4) The kind of premises referred to in subsection (2) is premises which are wholly or substantially enclosed and-
(a) to which the public or a section of the public has access;
(b) which are being used wholly or mainly as a place of work;
(c) which are being used by and for the purposes of a club or other unincorporated association; or
(d) which are being used wholly or mainly for the provision of education or of health or care services.
For our purposes (c) and (d) can be ignored.
What is not clear here is whether (a) and (b) are a conjoined requirement or requirements in their own right. In other words, in the Web version have they missed off a word? If subsection (4)(a) had ended “……………….public has access; and,” then premises must fulfil the criteria of both (a) and (b) in order to fall within the scope of the regulations. However, if subsection 4(a) had ended “……………public has access; or,” then subsection (4)(b) stands in its own right and could then be inferred to also include a room, home office, or outbuilding, on one’s own property which a person uses as a place of work which, as far as I am aware, was not the intention of the original legislation, and would undoubtedly be challenged by reference to the European Convention on Human Rights, which states,
Article 8
- Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
- There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
The distinction is quite important as it either narrows or broadens the range of premises that Ministers may legislation in respect of.
The words “public” and “section of the public” are not defined.
The second piece of legislation is The Prohibition of Smoking in Certain Premises (Scotland) Regulations 2006, which, although available on the Web, is denoted as being in Draft form, but is likely to accurately represent the final document.
The important part here is:
Section 1(2) “private vehicle” means—
(a) any car which is not a public transportation vehicle; and(b) any other vehicle which is used primarily for the private purposes of the person who owns it or of a person having the right to use it, provided always that such right to use a vehicle does not, in relation to that vehicle, include a reference to a person whose right to use the vehicle derives only from having paid, or undertaken to pay, for the use of the vehicle and its driver for a particular journey nor does it include a reference to any public transportation vehicle;
Straight away, we see the text, “used primarily for the private purposes…………or of a person having the right to use it”.
On the basis that an O/D or a ‘Tramper’ can only drive a maximum of 10 hours per day and that (normal) Rest Periods of 11 hours per day need to be taken, then I would contend that its use could fall within the category of “private vehicle”.
Schedule 2 lists the exemptions from these regulations as follows;
SCHEDULE 2
Regulation 3(2)EXEMPTIONS
Residential accommodation.
Designated rooms in adult care homes.
Adult hospices.
Designated rooms in psychiatric hospitals and psychiatric units.
Designated hotel bedrooms.
Detention or interview rooms which are designated rooms.
Designated rooms in offshore installations.
Private vehicles
Designated laboratory rooms.
HM Submarines and ships of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.
which clearly includes “private vehicle”, and doubtlessly is intended so as not to ensnare Mondeo Man doing his Rep’s job.
Schedule 1 is where we find the definitive list of premises where smoking is not allowed;
SCHEDULE 1
Regulation 3(1)NO-SMOKING PREMISES
Restaurants.
Bars and public houses.
Shops and shopping centres.
Hotels.
Libraries, archives, museums and galleries.
Cinemas, concert halls, theatres, bingo halls, gaming and amusement arcades, casinos, dance halls, discotheques and other premises used for the entertainment of members of the public.
Premises used as a broadcasting studio or film studio or for the recording of a performance with a view to its use in a programme service or in a film intended for public exhibition.
Halls and any other premises used for the assembly of members of the public for social or recreational purposes.
Conference centres, public halls and exhibition halls.
Public toilets.
Club premises.
Offices, factories and other premises that are non-domestic premises in which one or more persons work.
Offshore installations.
Educational institution premises.
Premises providing care home services, sheltered housing or secure accommodation services and premises that are non-domestic premises which provide offender accommodation services.
Hospitals, hospices, psychiatric hospitals, psychiatric units and health care premises.
Crèches, day nurseries, day centres and other premises used for the day care of children or adults.
Premises used for, or in connection with, public worship or religious instruction, or the social or recreational activities of a religious body.
Sports centres.
Airport passenger terminals and any other public transportation facilities.
Public transportation vehicles.
Vehicles which one or more persons use for work.
Public telephone kiosks.
and is where we have the rather unhelpful “Vehicles which one or more persons use for work”.
Unhelpful, in that it does not infer any time-scale. Bin lorries, Double-manning, or having a Driver’s Mate, we can all understand, but what of the Fleet vehicles used by different drivers on different days? Or the ‘Tramper’ whose vehicle is driven by someone else on his or her days off, or the O/D who employs a Relief for their two-week annual holiday?
Which then brings us back to the Prohibition of Smoking in Certain Premises (Scotland) Regulations 2006, Section 4(4)(a) and (b) because if the criteria of to which the public or a section of the public has access and which are being used wholly or mainly as a place of work both need to be fulfilled before Ministers can make regulations, then there are certainly grounds to argue that the cab of a truck is not somewhere where the public, or a section of the public, have access. However, the counter argument could be that occasional drivers, fitters, and DfT vehicle examiners, fall into the category of being a ‘section of the public’, but then, so could Meter Readers, Mobile Hairdressers, and other Tradespersons who enter people’s homes and are not especially protected.
To answer the comment as originally posted,
paul_eden:
So, if you light up in your lorry, north of the border, you’ve commited an offence!
I don’t know, and nobody will until the legislation has been tested before the Courts. However, one thing that I have noticed is that in relation to notices in vehicles, is
and
(b) display the holder of a particular post to whom a complaint may be made by any person who observes another person smoke in the no smoking premises in question and state that a complaint may be so made.
that there is no exemption for any vehicle, owned or hired, and being used for surveillance purposes, whether it be the Police, HM C&E, DfWP, Benefits Agency, Vosa, Env Health, or anyone else.
That will be REALLY helpful. 
Krankee:
and is where we have the rather unhelpful “Vehicles which one or more persons use for work”.Unhelpful, in that it does not infer any time-scale. Bin lorries, Double-manning, or having a Driver’s Mate, we can all understand, but what of the Fleet vehicles used by different drivers on different days? Or the ‘Tramper’ whose vehicle is driven by someone else on his or her days off, or the O/D who employs a Relief for their two-week annual holiday?
Unhelpful but not unclear Ken. The term ‘one or more persons’ encompasses all vehicles not just those shared or double manned since no vehicles are allowed on the road with no person in control.
To my mind there is no doubt that all truck cabs are within the ban and I suspect that it never occurred to the framers of the act that many truck drivers spend considerable hours of off duty time in their cabs.
So, yet another piece if nonsensicle legislation which will no doubt be operated by the majority of enforcers with understanding but you never know when, parked up one evening, puffing away in front of the telly, that some dingbat of a jobsworth won’t bang on the door with book and pen poised.
Salut, David.
Hell of a post, Krankee!! Excellent.
Like you say, it will be interesting to see what the first test cases come up with. Funny old thing is though, as it is at the moment I can read into it exactly the answer I want to see - I guess both sides could say the same.
I will volunteer to be the trucknet guinea pig, I believe the joke ban doesnt start till the 1st of March, I am going to Kirkaldy then, so I will puff to my hearts content, in my truck. no one else drives it, if I go on holiday the truck is parked up
Wheel Nut:
I will volunteer to be the trucknet guinea pig, I believe the joke ban doesnt start till the 1st of March, I am going to Kirkaldy then, so I will puff to my hearts content, in my truck. no one else drives it, if I go on holiday the truck is parked up
This piece of nonsense comes into effect at 6am on Sunday 26 March.
Just a few snippets of info from a document, ref this legislation, that was doing the rounds at work recently; (It was taken from the forthcoming legislation etc but was put into plain-speak by our company’s legal team.)
…will place particular emphasis on ensuring the protection of those who do not wish to be subjected to the tobacco smoke, or the remnants of, from others.
‘Remnants of’ must cover things like the smell that’s left in the cab after a smoker has used it.
Against this background…all workplaces and vehicles will become totally non-smoking.
i.e. Scotland from 26 March!
…continues to allow members of the public to smoke in their own homes.
So is a trampers sleeper cab counted as his ‘home’?
We would need to guarantee that no non-smoker would need to work in, use or pass through a smoking area of any description, including a designated ‘smoking room’.
Back to the cab that is used by both a smoker and a non-smoker, even on different shifts…
If there is no significant demand for designated smoking areas, or if creating a designated and separate smoking area would be impractical or likely to lead to a breach of the law, companies/managers will not have to offer designated smoking areas.
It has been established in my current workplace that a mere 4.41% of the employee’s are smokers. Two of them have expressed an interest in joining the company sponsored ‘stop-smoking’ scheme (they get their patches and councillor paid for!) so I think there will be no ‘designated smoking areas’ offered!!
if your company employs smokers and nonsmokers the company usually supplies a designated smoking area and is very well signposted. get sign affixed to your cab and if any jobsworth tries it on just point out to him\her that this is a designated smoking area,and tell them gently to go away!!!
I was sent a link about a week ago (but can’t find it now! ) that was about a company who, trying to do the right thing, had bought and erected a bus shelter to be the designated smoking area. However, it had been deemed that there were too many sides (or surface area) and was infact, an enclosed space so no smoking was allowed!!
They ended up taking off all the sides bar the very corners; not much of a shelter though!!
I read that too MT, Even if the company has a no smoking policy throuout, if you go and stand on the street, you must be in the open. No lurking in the doorway or foyer with the doors open.
I know a lot of places who use bus shelters or portakabins for the smoke room, now they are illegal too.