Smacking ban

[robroy]

Carryfast:

robroy:
Starting to get bored now , but here goes.
I am fairly confident that the original system of corporal punishment in schools was never intended to be a system of mindless routine and sadistic violence towards kids, or maybe you think that there was a hidden agenda to actually encourage ■■■■■■ in schools.
I would think that (maybe naively in your eyes) the regime in your school was the exception rather than the rule, and more of a chosen interpretation of said system to satisfy the needs of the sadistic teaching staff that you speak of in your school.
The fact that it descended into a “worse case scenario” in your case was undoubtedly more down to the lack of supervision by the school’s governing bodies and inspectors, as I am sure that even in the rough environment that you were brought up in, this sort of practice would be illegal and would brought to a halt if discovered if the governing bodies had been doing their jobs properly.

As for your guess about me , If you think that I would be happy to see kids violently abused as you describe, as if I was some kind of perverted child hating animal, you are way off mate! and it is quite an offensive accusation, especially when based solely on a view expressed by me on a forum, that did not give you any basis as the o/p was explained to the contrary at the start.
As for my own kids, I would not have any objection to them being schooled under the same regime as I was, as it seems that things are/were a bit more civilised up here, or am I in your opinion being naïve…again.

Sorry but like all the other supporters of the return of such a regime in schools I’d say that at best you were being naive in the extreme in thinking that such regimes don’t inevitably descend into such worse case scenarios as I’ve described in too many cases to justify allowing it’s return.IE how can the governing bodies ‘do their job properly’,in an environment where no one with any sense is going to bother to report such issues,because of the likely reprisals which would follow.That’s in addition to the fact that in many cases the ‘governing bodies’ would have been more interested in covering up such problems than sorting them out.IE you can bet that such regimes can only take place in the case of a blind eye being turned by those who are ‘supposed to be’ in charge of the actions of the teachers.

Having said that assuming that you agree that the correct course of action for any teacher who’s being subjected to violent behaviour by a pupil is to report it to the police and the relevant authorities to have that pupil dealt with under the law,rather than take violent retaliation of whatever type,and assuming that you don’t think that it’s acceptable for pupils to be subjected to what is in reality violent attack by the establishment for trivial ‘offences’,such as falling asleep in class or disagreeing with a teacher for whatever reason in a good natured way etc etc.Then exactly what types of ‘offences’ do you think justify such establishment inflicted violence on school kids ■■?.

Carryfast mate, are you getting withdrawl symptoms from Luke not being on here for a while, and missing your Saville-esque/ African politics type 5 page arguments, so you thought you would take me on instead? .
We seem to be going around in circles here, so I will attempt to clarify and reiterate my point with a view to knocking it on the head now. (no violence pun intended )
I have never said on here, or anywhere else, that I agree with a violent regime in schools, either back in the 70s or now ,as you seem to keep accusing me of.
Your interpretation of corporal punishment routinely escalating into habitual unnecessary violence towards kids, is your theory… not mine, and if you think that my opinion on it is naïve, well we will have to agree to differ. How can I have an opinion on something that I do not think is true anyway, other than…“I do not think it is true anyway” The fact that I do, and say to you that I do disagree with said opinion, should suffice, as to pursue it is only, (and in fact IS) going to lead us into an argumentative cul de sac
As for you equating corporal punishment with an inevitable charter for sadists, I would answer that by saying that there would be no laws made, systems devised, or ideas carried out in any walk of life if the fact that they were open to abuse or misrepresentation was the criteria for not making them or carrying them out, and if said laws systems or ideas were not checked to see if they were being implemented correctly, and not abused or misused.

[carryfast]

robroy:

Carryfast:

robroy:
Starting to get bored now , but here goes.
I am fairly confident that the original system of corporal punishment in schools was never intended to be a system of mindless routine and sadistic violence towards kids, or maybe you think that there was a hidden agenda to actually encourage ■■■■■■ in schools.
I would think that (maybe naively in your eyes) the regime in your school was the exception rather than the rule, and more of a chosen interpretation of said system to satisfy the needs of the sadistic teaching staff that you speak of in your school.
The fact that it descended into a “worse case scenario” in your case was undoubtedly more down to the lack of supervision by the school’s governing bodies and inspectors, as I am sure that even in the rough environment that you were brought up in, this sort of practice would be illegal and would brought to a halt if discovered if the governing bodies had been doing their jobs properly.

As for your guess about me , If you think that I would be happy to see kids violently abused as you describe, as if I was some kind of perverted child hating animal, you are way off mate! and it is quite an offensive accusation, especially when based solely on a view expressed by me on a forum, that did not give you any basis as the o/p was explained to the contrary at the start.
As for my own kids, I would not have any objection to them being schooled under the same regime as I was, as it seems that things are/were a bit more civilised up here, or am I in your opinion being naïve…again.

Sorry but like all the other supporters of the return of such a regime in schools I’d say that at best you were being naive in the extreme in thinking that such regimes don’t inevitably descend into such worse case scenarios as I’ve described in too many cases to justify allowing it’s return.IE how can the governing bodies ‘do their job properly’,in an environment where no one with any sense is going to bother to report such issues,because of the likely reprisals which would follow.That’s in addition to the fact that in many cases the ‘governing bodies’ would have been more interested in covering up such problems than sorting them out.IE you can bet that such regimes can only take place in the case of a blind eye being turned by those who are ‘supposed to be’ in charge of the actions of the teachers.

Having said that assuming that you agree that the correct course of action for any teacher who’s being subjected to violent behaviour by a pupil is to report it to the police and the relevant authorities to have that pupil dealt with under the law,rather than take violent retaliation of whatever type,and assuming that you don’t think that it’s acceptable for pupils to be subjected to what is in reality violent attack by the establishment for trivial ‘offences’,such as falling asleep in class or disagreeing with a teacher for whatever reason in a good natured way etc etc.Then exactly what types of ‘offences’ do you think justify such establishment inflicted violence on school kids ■■?.

Carryfast mate, are you getting withdrawl symptoms from Luke not being on here for a while, and missing your Saville-esque/ African politics type 5 page arguments, so you thought you would take me on instead? .
We seem to be going around in circles here, so I will attempt to clarify and reiterate my point with a view to knocking it on the head now. (no violence pun intended )
I have never said on here, or anywhere else, that I agree with a violent regime in schools, either back in the 70s or now ,as you seem to keep accusing me of.
Your interpretation of corporal punishment routinely escalating into habitual unnecessary violence towards kids, is your theory… not mine, and if you think that my opinion on it is naïve, well we will have to agree to differ. How can I have an opinion on something that I do not think is true anyway, other than…“I do not think it is true anyway” The fact that I do, and say to you that I do disagree with said opinion, should suffice, as to pursue it is only, (and in fact IS) going to lead us into an argumentative cul de sac
As for you equating corporal punishment with an inevitable charter for sadists, I would answer that by saying that there would be no laws made, systems devised, or ideas carried out in any walk of life if the fact that they were open to abuse or misrepresentation was the criteria for not making them or carrying them out, and if said laws systems or ideas were not checked to see if they were being implemented correctly, and not abused or misused.

The inconvenient fact for your argument is that the government ‘did’ ( rightly ) eventually remove the rights of teachers,to administer what were physical violent sanctions,against school pupils,for exactly the reasons which I’ve provided.It’s your idea to call for the return of such rights to teachers so I’d at least expect you to be able to answer the question as to exactly what types of so called ‘offences’ would justify such actions and sanctions in your view ■■.Bearing in mind the normal rule of law as it applies regarding assault.Which of course applies ( should apply ) in regards to teachers as it does in regards to anyone else.

[jimbo47]

As somebody that went to school in the 60–mid 70s at a rural Scottish school and believe me we had some sad!!! that were teachers ,hell even the girls received the tawse ,some o them teachers could knock a fly down at 100yrds wi a blackboard eraser.For years i thought it was needed for discipline but as i get older i slowly realised they were just sad bsrds and didnt know any better ways o keeping discipline.
and for years after leaving school i used to look for my old teachers when out for a drink …pleased now i never found any o them because it would have screwed up me living over here.
well enough o that …and aye i was smacked at home BUT only for serious stuff and i thought the punishment o wait till your dad comes home was enough for me…
I tried not to smack my daughter when she was growing up and it seems to have worked out ok.
I recon things have swung to much away from punishment over the years and now we are reaping whAT HAS BEEN SOWED.
JIMMY

[robroy]

Carryfast:
The inconvenient fact for your argument is that the government ‘did’ ( rightly ) eventually remove the rights of teachers,to administer what were physical violent sanctions,against school pupils,for exactly the reasons which I’ve provided.It’s your idea to call for the return of such rights to teachers so I’d at least expect you to be able to answer the question as to exactly what types of so called ‘offences’ would justify such actions and sanctions in your view ■■.Bearing in mind the normal rule of law as it applies regarding assault.Which of course applies ( should apply ) in regards to teachers as it does in regards to anyone else.

God, this is like pulling teeth, if you are trying to wear me down believe me you are succeeding.
OK so now you want me to cherry pick random offences at school with a view to leading me into some kind of verbal trap so you can claim I am contradicting myself, being naïve, advocating to introduce violent regimes in schools, or all three options.
So I will compromise by telling you (again ) of my own experiences where caning was administered at MY school (just to clarify …not beating up, not wounding, not kicking, not headbutting, or any other kind of abuse you can think up to fuel your point ), a single swipe over the hand, ok?
Fighting, insubordination to teachers, vandalism, wilful damage, or anything that was deemed a serious offence to the detriment of the school. (again just to clarify not sleeping, being bored, eating in class, coughing, yawning or ■■■■■■■ )
Hope this clears things up and puts a stop to this bloody stupid argument that you seem intent on maintaining.
Can we finally leave the pros and cons of the 70s educational system alone now, as I feel that it has been covered to death with minimal progress.
Feel free to comment on the o/p core subject, even though even I am beginning to forget (or even care) what it was.

[carryfast]

robroy:

Carryfast:
The inconvenient fact for your argument is that the government ‘did’ ( rightly ) eventually remove the rights of teachers,to administer what were physical violent sanctions,against school pupils,for exactly the reasons which I’ve provided.It’s your idea to call for the return of such rights to teachers so I’d at least expect you to be able to answer the question as to exactly what types of so called ‘offences’ would justify such actions and sanctions in your view ■■.Bearing in mind the normal rule of law as it applies regarding assault.Which of course applies ( should apply ) in regards to teachers as it does in regards to anyone else.

I will compromise by telling you (again ) of my own experiences where caning was administered at MY school (just to clarify …not beating up, not wounding, not kicking, not headbutting, or any other kind of abuse you can think up to fuel your point ), a single swipe over the hand, ok?
Fighting, insubordination to teachers, vandalism, wilful damage, or anything that was deemed a serious offence to the detriment of the school. (again just to clarify not sleeping, being bored, eating in class, coughing, yawning or ■■■■■■■ )
Hope this clears things up
Feel free to comment on the o/p core subject, even though even I am beginning to forget (or even care) what it was.

You really are naive.

Bearing in mind that at MY school that line of thought probably would have seen you firstly get ‘swiped’ across both hands more than a few times when you’d been involved in a so called ‘fight’ that you didn’t start and in most cases didn’t hit anyone back and which the teacher who hit you probably also knew that you didn’t start or want to be involved in.

Then a few more later on when the troublemakers started throwing things around etc while the teacher’s back was turned.In which case the same criteria applied when apportioning blame.IE just apply corporal punishment to the kids who were the least likely to hit the teacher back while the guilty ones certainly weren’t going to admit to anything anyway.Then some more assuming that you tried to argue the point.Then more if/when you dared to argue about anything at all with any teacher.Trust me by the end of the day you’d have been subjected to a lot more than ‘a single swipe’ with hands as painful and raw as roping an artic a few times without gloves.

That was my experience of the type of treatment during the first year or two of secondary education.Things then got a lot rougher as time went on in the later years.Luckily for me I was bright enough to know that the penalties for truancy were a lot less,if any,than those involved in staying within such a regime on a daily basis,at the time.Probably because the school authorities knew that such penalties would require the notification and involvement of parents unlike the corrupt disciplinary regime within the school.

I’d doubt that any modern day parents or school authorities would want to risk today’s kids being subjected to the real world type of school disciplinary regime that I was,all based on your obviously unrealistic ideas of human nature.Good luck with your crusade in bringing back corporal punishment in schools.

[robroy]

Carryfast:
You really are naive.

Bearing in mind that at MY school that line of thought probably would have seen you firstly get ‘swiped’ across both hands more than a few times when you’d been involved in a so called ‘fight’ that you didn’t start and in most cases didn’t hit anyone back and which the teacher who hit you probably also knew that you didn’t start or want to be involved in.

Then a few more later on when the troublemakers started throwing things around etc while the teacher’s back was turned.In which case the same criteria applied when apportioning blame.IE just apply corporal punishment to the kids who were the least likely to hit the teacher back while the guilty ones certainly weren’t going to admit to anything anyway.Then some more assuming that you tried to argue the point.Then more if/when you dared to argue about anything at all with any teacher.Trust me by the end of the day you’d have been subjected to a lot more than ‘a single swipe’ with hands as painful and raw as roping an artic a few times without gloves.

That was my experience of the type of treatment during the first year or two of secondary education.Things then got a lot rougher as time went on in the later years.Luckily for me I was bright enough to know that the penalties for truancy were a lot less,if any,than those involved in staying within such a regime on a daily basis,at the time.Probably because the school authorities knew that such penalties would require the notification and involvement of parents unlike the corrupt disciplinary regime within the school.

I’d doubt that any modern day parents or school authorities would want to risk today’s kids being subjected to the real world type of school disciplinary regime that I was,all based on your obviously unrealistic ideas of human nature.Good luck with your crusade in bringing back corporal punishment in schools.

I won’t resort to insults (as you have) by saying that you have difficulty understanding things, instead I will give you the benefit of the doubt and take the blame by suggesting that I am not putting across my points well.
Are you actually reading my part of the argument, as it looks like you are just disregarding everything I say, then calling me naïve, then going on to give me examples of the hard times you had at school, then accusing me of being on …a Crusade Where the hell did you get that one from.

The endless examples of abuse you keep chucking at me just vindicates what I have been saying, the regime at MY school was an example of the system of deterrent working, which was maintained by authoritative supervision.
The system at YOUR school was an example of an abuse of the system, where punishment was taken to another level, to the point of cruelty to children… ie; an example of the system not working, which was maintained by the lack of authoritative supervision.

The summing up , and conclusion (I hope ) being I went to a school where the system worked, you went to a school where it did not, so all the repetitive examples of abuse at your school can not alter those two points

If you still think that I am naïve, well so be it, I really don’t care to be honest, as I have said I can only speak from my experience, and you from yours.
I really can not see how we can go any further with this, although I suspect that you can … by coming up with a few new anecdotes, and/or a couple of ones that you have used already

[the_maoster]

This started off as a fascinating and thought provoking thread with some very well thought out and insightful posts but once again has descended into frankly unreadable foot long diatribes which merely make one scroll through them without reading, and that’s a crying shame because it is obviously a subject close to our hearts.

And for that reason I’m oot!

[dave_the_renegade]

I had the cane and slipper a few times in school.It never did me any harm. If you misbehaved or did wrong you took the punishment. Bring it back I say. Both of my Sisters are school teachers and can’t wait to retire.

[robroy]

the maoster:
This started off as a fascinating and thought provoking thread with some very well thought out and insightful posts but once again has descended into frankly unreadable foot long diatribes which merely make one scroll through them without reading, and that’s a crying shame because it is obviously a subject close to our hearts.

And for that reason I’m oot![/quote

Sorry mate , it’s maybe my fault for taking the bait from Carryfast’s usual and inevitable attempt to hijack a thread, and turn it into a 5+ page tedious point scoring exercise, by repeating the same points over and over but from different angles just look at other threads on the forum which prove my point. I know exactly what you mean as I am getting bored myself.

[the_maoster]

No worries Robroy, it wasn’t aimed at you anyway.

[carryfast]

robroy:

the maoster:
This started off as a fascinating and thought provoking thread with some very well thought out and insightful posts but once again has descended into frankly unreadable foot long diatribes which merely make one scroll through them without reading, and that’s a crying shame because it is obviously a subject close to our hearts.

And for that reason I’m oot!
[/quote

Sorry mate , it’s maybe my fault for taking the bait from Carryfast’s usual and inevitable attempt to hijack a thread, and turn it into a 5+ page tedious point scoring exercise, by repeating the same points over and over but from different angles just look at other threads on the forum which prove my point. I know exactly what you mean as I am getting bored myself.

As I’ve read it the topic started out by firstly branding anyone who disagrees with the idea of corporal punishment in schools as being ‘lefties’.

Then as usual it’s obvious that disagreement based on good reason and experience won’t be tolerated and gets described as ‘hijacking’ the thread.

As I’ve said you’ve already lost the argument because of the fact that what you’re calling for was ( rightly ) banned because of the reasons which I’ve provided.IE any so called ‘benefits’ of providing teachers with an exemption from the normal laws of assault were outweighed by the drawbacks of human nature when it’s applied in the real world.

[carryfast]

Dave the Renegade:
I had the cane and slipper a few times in school.It never did me any harm. If you misbehaved or did wrong you took the punishment.

Yet more support for the idea of running a school regime on the same lines as King George’s Navy.As I’ve said there’s no way that the education authorities can base the decision,to allow such an idea,on a few best case scenario soft regimes,when it’s what happens in the worst case ones that really matters.

[robroy]

Carryfast:
As I’ve read it the topic started out by firstly branding anyone who disagrees with the idea of corporal punishment in schools as being ‘lefties’.

Then as usual it’s obvious that disagreement based on good reason and experience won’t be tolerated and gets described as ‘hijacking’ the thread.

As I’ve said you’ve already lost the argument because of the fact that what you’re calling for was ( rightly ) banned because of the reasons which I’ve provided.IE any so called ‘benefits’ of providing teachers with an exemption from the normal laws of assault were outweighed by the drawbacks of human nature when it’s applied in the real world.

You really do have problems reading things properly don’t you.
If anybody, not just me in this thread, but other threads in the forum, disagree with you, then they are naïve, or do not live in the real world, or any other put down that you can come up with. Everybody has a right to think themselves right, but you abuse the privilege, that is not a personal attack, just an observation.
Can you point out to me where in my o/p that I “Called for” any thing, it says that “I am old enough to remember it” and commented that in MY EXPERIENCE ( again just for you MY experience ) it worked, and made a comparison with today’s schools.
I can take disagreement, I can take good reason, I can take, an account of your experience, but if all you do is not listen to the same aspects from me and go on to repeat the same points without taking my points into consideration, where do we go apart from round in circles, at the same time boring the arse off everybody else, (proven by a comment made by another poster) because the argument is not progressing.
You have hi jacked the thread by hanging on like a terrier to one small aspect of it that I mentioned, making little or no comment to the main subject, ie. parents probably getting banned from smacking NOT BEATING UP OR ABUSING ok??.. but any form of light smacking their OWN kids, not schools abusing kids 40 yrs ago
Can we now call it a day as I have just realised I have risen to the bait again by answering your (SAME ) point again and that we are now on the second (sorry about this everybody else ) BLOODY PAGE

[slackbladder]

I went to school in the 60s & 70s. As my dad was in the army I moved around a fair bit, ended up going to 17 schools all told. Some good, some bad, some mixed & a couple boys schools. Some were posh, for us anyway, in Worcester, and some were tough, around the scotswood area of Newcastle. I never saw anything like the regime as described by carryfast in any of them, he must have gone to Beirut comp. Yes I got the cane on occasion, as well as the slipper & the leather strap, I deserved them all tbh as I was a little feisty.
The problem as I see it is that currently there is no deterrent for kids these days, taking away an Xbox for a couple of hours is not a punishment to a child with a mobile phone, a laptop and a ps3. The parents need sorting out, it all starts at home. It’s the place where children learn about barriers, are supposed to anyway. Too many are just too lazy& incompetent, giving in at the first hurdle.
Robroy, you’re wasting your time, once he gets started I think he stops reading and starts pushing the repeat button. I put it down to too much sanatogen.

[robroy]

Slackbladder:
I never saw anything like the regime as described by carryfast in any of them, he must have gone to Beirut comp.

Classic, I wish I had thought of that one.

[carryfast]

robroy:

Carryfast:
As I’ve read it the topic started out by firstly branding anyone who disagrees with the idea of corporal punishment in schools as being ‘lefties’.

Then as usual it’s obvious that disagreement based on good reason and experience won’t be tolerated and gets described as ‘hijacking’ the thread.

As I’ve said you’ve already lost the argument because of the fact that what you’re calling for was ( rightly ) banned because of the reasons which I’ve provided.IE any so called ‘benefits’ of providing teachers with an exemption from the normal laws of assault were outweighed by the drawbacks of human nature when it’s applied in the real world.

You really do have problems reading things properly don’t you.
If anybody, not just me in this thread, but other threads in the forum, disagree with you, then they are naïve, or do not live in the real world, or any other put down that you can come up with. Everybody has a right to think themselves right, but you abuse the privilege, that is not a personal attack, just an observation.
Can you point out to me where in my o/p that I “Called for” any thing, it says that “I am old enough to remember it” and commented that in MY EXPERIENCE ( again just for you MY experience ) it worked, and made a comparison with today’s schools.
I can take disagreement, I can take good reason, I can take, an account of your experience, but if all you do is not listen to the same aspects from me and go on to repeat the same points without taking my points into consideration, where do we go apart from round in circles, at the same time boring the arse off everybody else, (proven by a comment made by another poster) because the argument is not progressing.
You have hi jacked the thread by hanging on like a terrier to one small aspect of it that I mentioned, making little or no comment to the main subject, ie. parents probably getting banned from smacking NOT BEATING UP OR ABUSING ok??.. but any form of light smacking their OWN kids, not schools abusing kids 40 yrs ago
Can we now call it a day as I have just realised I have risen to the bait again by answering your (SAME ) point again and that we are now on the second (sorry about this everybody else ) BLOODY PAGE

I think I’ve read the topic post correctly.There’s an obvious reference to ‘lefties’ and you’re obviously ‘calling for’ the ‘return’ of corporal punishment in schools and making a similar case ‘against’ regarding proposals to remove the rights of parents to use physical force to discipline their kids.

In both cases it’s not my fault that you’re obviously unable to get your head around the reasons for the banning of corporal punishment in schools and proposals for the removal of rights for parents to hit their kids,being all about protecting kids from the inevitable worst case scenarios not the best case ones.

[carryfast]

Slackbladder:
I went to school in the 60s & 70s. As my dad was in the army I moved around a fair bit, ended up going to 17 schools all told. Some good, some bad, some mixed & a couple boys schools. Some were posh, for us anyway, in Worcester, and some were tough, around the scotswood area of Newcastle. I never saw anything like the regime as described by carryfast in any of them, he must have gone to Beirut comp. Yes I got the cane on occasion, as well as the slipper & the leather strap, I deserved them all tbh as I was a little feisty.
The problem as I see it is that currently there is no deterrent for kids these days, taking away an Xbox for a couple of hours is not a punishment to a child with a mobile phone, a laptop and a ps3. The parents need sorting out, it all starts at home. It’s the place where children learn about barriers, are supposed to anyway. Too many are just too lazy& incompetent, giving in at the first hurdle.
Robroy, you’re wasting your time, once he gets started I think he stops reading and starts pushing the repeat button. I put it down to too much sanatogen.

You ‘think’ that you went to some ‘tough’ schools in Newcastle.But then you also think that a regime in which the teachers imposed corporal punishment based on fitting up the kids who were least likely to hit the teachers back and co operating with the ones who were and in which ‘corporal punishment’ often meant a ‘bit’ more than just a ‘single swipe of the cane or slipper or strap’,is something which would only apply in Beirut.Especially when,as I’ve said it’s often the case that it’s the innocent ones who pay for the crimes of the guilty ones in a regime where ‘tough’ and ‘feisty’ meant tough enough for the teachers to be ( rightly ) scared of them not vice versa.IE if you went to a really ‘tough’ school and if you were that ‘feisty’ then you wouldn’t have given a zb about the cane or strap etc because you’d have hit the teacher back much worse and the teacher would have known it.

[robroy]

So it’s bye from me

Handing over the baton to Slackbladder … …Good luck mate

[smoggie89]

the maoster:
This started off as a fascinating and thought provoking thread with some very well thought out and insightful posts but once again has descended into frankly unreadable foot long diatribes which merely make one scroll through them without reading, and that’s a crying shame because it is obviously a subject close to our hearts.

And for that reason I’m oot!

+1 lol

[tipper_tom]

In the immortal words of Father Jack Hackett.

Oh for ■■■■ sake not that ■■■■■■■■ again