Servicing and repairs

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
1

The period most of us relate to is probably late 1960s through to the mid 1980s. The heavyweight vehicles in the home market were powered principally by engines from four manufacturers, AEC, ■■■■■■■■ Gardner and Leyland in their non turbo form; with Rolls Royce and Perkins taking a smaller share.

We have had opinions on what these engines were like to operate from a guvnor’s point of view and from drivers as well. But what were they like from the point of view of those of us who had to service and repair them? Not just which caused the least trouble, but what were day to day routine work and the usual repairs like to do?

To start I’ll say I reckon AEC were the easiest to work on although with an inline pump they could be a pain to bleed the fuel system sometimes. Delving deeper setting the camshaft timing could either be done in a few minutes or if unlucky quite a bit longer. The Gardner from a servicing perspective was a lot easier than 1st impressions would give. Being able to decompress it and latch back the injectors made a big difference.

2

Well Cav, this thread really took off big time didn’t it! :laughing: I can think of a few and will post them when I have more time, happen nobody else did any maintenance eh? :wink:

Pete.

3

i can give my twopennorth as a driver as regards gardner and ■■■■■■■ . started in the early 60s with a 5 and 6 lw . maintenance ( pre mot ) was what you did yourself but they just went on and on . the 5 lw dropped a valve near luton , i locked the fuel lever on the pump , delivered and plodded slowly back to sandwich for a new piston and head . later on with the 180s ( ours were very tired ) dropped valves were a regular thing , but there was a shed full of gardner spares down the yard , fresh piston and head and it was ready for morning . a gallon of engine oil was considered normal daily . even later i had a 290 big cam ■■■■■■■ and what an engine ! kept adjusted it gave very little trouble , the only problem i recall was the exhaust brake slide snapping and dropping into the exhaust ( trust fodens to fit it above the pipe instead of below ) it pulled like a train and the update to 38 tons was hardly noticeable . i drove a few of the l10 ■■■■■■■ , but was never impressed by them , all rev and no go . i did drive one good l10 , the fitter was very good and when he sorted them out they pulled well . cheers , dave

4

Life became a lot easier when the tilt cab came along,before that you had to be some kind of a contortionist no matter what engine was fitted in some vehicles, e.g. the removal of a cylinder head on any of the 3 LAD cabbed vehicles was a pain in the backside especially if it had not been removed for any length of time before.

5

Never really had to take apart any of the above engines mentioned, had to replace rocker arm bearings now and again in TS 3’s but the bain of my life were Ford D series which always had head gaskets go after putting anti freeze in them and 1 rogue Scania 80 that got the engine rebuilt on a regular basis.

6

My introduction to Diesel engines mentioned began when I started my apprenticeship in 1968, the haulier I worked for had mainly AEC units fitted with 470, 505, 690 engines in both fixed and tilt cab Mercury and Mandator models, several Ford D 1000 ■■■■■■■ V engine powered units appeared and initially gave problems with water in the fuel which after some investigation by the adult fitters, with three ‘green’ apprentices observing and fetching and carrying along side, eventually found the PT system of returning very hot fuel back to the tank enabled condensation to form when the tanks were refueled at the end of a trip and so water mixed with the fuel, I loved the sound of those fast running ■■■■■■■ V’s. We also had a mix of Mercedes Forward and Normal Control LP 1418 tractors, these engines seemed to give out a completely different noise to other familiar British makes and sounded quieter and softer. During one service when changing Injectors on the Merc engine a Fitter told me they had some instances when the injectors had blocked and the built pressure in the cylinder had blown the injectors completely out of the heads, the double clutch plates could also suffer from less careful drivers.

After a period of about 18 months I got a job with the local AEC dealership, this really was an introduction into vehicle engineering as opposed to the service and repair carried out in many haulage workshops where time and equipment available dictated the way the work was handled. Being familiar with the AEC marque I was soon involved with engine, gearbox etc repairs to a level I hadn’t been able to do previously, I became very familiar with the 505 engine which as a fitter I thought was an excellent engine to work on and gain knowledge of the workings of a diesel engine as a whole. I think most young diesel mechanics would have done a few cylinder head gasket jobs in those days but for me to now strip, repair and re-build complete engines on my own was very interesting and satisfying, something todays young apprentices get very little experience of because engines don’t have the problems these days that we encountered in the 60’s and 70’s. My own particular claim to fame was to strip and resolve the head gasket problem on a new AEC V8 demonstrator that had got into trouble on its way up North presumably to show Northeast hauliers this latest from Southall, I could well have been the only kid in the North to have worked on this engine at the time as it was quickly sent back to where it came from once up and running again.

Once qualified I spent about a year with another local Tyneside haulier and back to the small dark workshop and minimal equipment with a mixed fleet, Gardner, Perkins, Ford, AEC and Rolls engines and one new Volvo 86 which was shunned as being a softies motor although most drivers would grab the chance to drive it for a day or two. I never did a lot of work on Gardner engines they just didn’t give any problems at the time whereas the Perkins and Fords did. I soon got disappointed with the low wages and decided to join the army, after nine years and returning to the tools I found little had changed, some of the familiar makes had gone or merged, ■■■■■■■ was now the big kid on the block and of course the Scandinavians had a big chunk of the market, the odd Scania or Volvo in the British hauliers fleet had changed to almost all the fleet consisting of these makes. Mercedes still clung there and MAN, IVECO and even the odd Yankee motor had made in roads, what I did sadly notice was the lack of British makes especially in the top weight sector. All these new power plants however didn’t change much for the humble fitter, I was soon stripping ■■■■■■■■ Volvo and Scania engines along with the odd International, Perkins and Roller.

Today with only a couple a years left until retirement I miss this side of the trade, I haven’t had the head off an engine since, well I can’t even recall, I just haven’t been in the right place at the right time when one did need looking at, this sort of modern reliability must be good for owners and manufacturers but I fear the young kid that just wants to see the inside of a big six cylinder diesel like I did may well have a very long and boring apprenticeship. They, as some of my equally aged colleagues agree, were the good old days to be a lorry mechanic and not a computer in sight!
Cheers Franky, hope this wasn’t too long.

7

Isn’t anyone going to regale us with tales of the infamous Perkins R6?

8

only ever drove one in an s type bedford . swine to start , i parked it a the top of a big hill , fair play though it was addicted to easy start .always carried a gallon of oil and most of it exited via the rear crank bearing . all that apart it pulled well ( after a p6 anything pulled well ) . didn’t have it long before i was " promoted" to a lad cabbed albion with the albion engine . dave

9

rigsby:
only ever drove one in an s type bedford . swine to start , i parked it a the top of a big hill , fair play though it was addicted to easy start .always carried a gallon of oil and most of it exited via the rear crank bearing . all that apart it pulled well ( after a p6 anything pulled well ) . didn’t have it long before i was " promoted" to a lad cabbed albion with the albion engine . dave

A cousin of mine had a one in his S Type Bedford the timming on it went all wrong one day & it broke the crankshaft in to pieces & knackered the timming gear all in one go, He replaced it with a Layland Comet engine, He had no more problems after that Im pleased to say, This was in the late 50s, Regards Larry.

10

Yes, that all rings a bell! Ours was on a Bedford S-type with a Boys trailing axle. Everything that could go wrong with it did. Surprisingly, it lasted quite a long time in the fleet, being replaced by firstly a Guy Invincible six-wheeler then the first of the artics, a Bedford TK.

11

rigsby:
only ever drove one in an s type bedford . swine to start , i parked it a the top of a big hill , fair play though it was addicted to easy start .always carried a gallon of oil and most of it exited via the rear crank bearing . all that apart it pulled well ( after a p6 anything pulled well ) . didn’t have it long before i was " promoted" to a lad cabbed albion with the albion engine . dave

i soon got fed up and left for pastures new as the " star driver" was an engine destroyer . his idea of descending a hill was to let it run until the valves bounced and hammering the brakes on bends . he always moved on to another motor before the engines expired and as a junior driver , well down the food chain, i inherited his knackered lorries . dave

12

I can’t really contribute much to this thread as most of my ‘fitting career’ was done on vehicles that were mostly accessible with ease. Gardner’s were a doddle to service as everything apart from the sump plug was accessed from the top, waterpump and fan bearing greaser, fuel and oil filters, injectors etc so you kept fairly clean! About the worse job I encountered on them was setting the valve timing when the camshaft chain wheel either broke or came loose due to the retaining bolt lock tab breaking and the bolt unscrewing, usually you would see valve marks on the piston crowns. A new chainwheel was sometimes required then. Gardner’s used a protractor fastened to the crank nose and the idea was to get the mean average setting between all the cams which could take (me!) a day to acheive.

Rolls 220’s and 265’s were straightforward enough, I didn’t do much on ■■■■■■■ apart from L10 waterpumps which were fiddly.

Bedfords were not a problem really, apart from the synchromesh wearing on the 4 speed gearboxes and I rebuilt a few of those. Any major engine work on TK’s was easy once the cab was removed which took less than an hour usually. On Luton bodied vans the cab slid off forward so again no problem.

I suppose the worst single job I had regularly was replacing liners and pistons on ther 5.1/5.7 engines fitted in the BMC FHK range. The engine was the forerunner of the disasterous ones used in the later FJ tiltcab models but, due to having a vertical radiator giving a good head of water, gave little overheating issues but they did wear out of course! The cab was a slightly modified FFK fixed one. The cylinder head was accessed between the chassis rail and the cab base, the wheel and nearside cab mountings needed removing and the cab raised about three inches. All the manifold studs needed removing and then the head could be ‘fiddled’ out under the wing between the chassis and cab base. The sump was in three sections, the top section needed the arms of a contortionist to reach some of the bolts and getting a liner puller in was a work of art as well! Some of the ones I worked on were left hand drive roadsweepers so both the brake and clutch master cylinders needed removing as well to even get the rocker cover off.

The FJ, as I said before, was a nightmare regarding overheating problems. BMC transferred production from Longbridge to Bathgate and the Scottish engines were 5/8th of an inch longer that the Brummie ones, alas Bathgate had problems with dropped cylinder liners on the production line plus BMC fitted a crossflow radiator which got airlocked easily. We would remove an engine, fit a fresh one from the factory, start it up and watch the water shoot out of the header tank! Remove that engine and try another until we found one that was OK. There were numerous modifications to the cooling system over the years, when we finished all the mods you were as good at pipe bending and soldering as any plumber! The later Laird was no better, then BMC fitted the vertical 6.98 engines and they were virtually trouble free! :unamused:

BMC gearboxes were pretty much bomb proof, I don’t ever remember replacing one unless it had been abused and the axles were just as good.

So really nothing out of the ordinary, I never worked on AEC or Leylands and Fodens were a doddle with everything handy to get at. Their own brake shoes with the central beehive springs were easy to replace and no special tools were needed for any work on the gearboxes or diffs so nice and simple for an OD.

Pete.

13

rigsby:

rigsby:
only ever drove one in an s type bedford . swine to start , i parked it a the top of a big hill , fair play though it was addicted to easy start .always carried a gallon of oil and most of it exited via the rear crank bearing . all that apart it pulled well ( after a p6 anything pulled well ) . didn’t have it long before i was " promoted" to a lad cabbed albion with the albion engine . dave

i soon got fed up and left for pastures new as the " star driver" was an engine destroyer . his idea of descending a hill was to let it run until the valves bounced and hammering the brakes on bends . he always moved on to another motor before the engines expired and as a junior driver , well down the food chain, i inherited his knackered lorries . dave

Aye Rigsby there was a lot of drivers like that in the old days, I remember been given a A Type Bedford with the P 6 Engine it had been flogged to death with the previous Nugget who had it from new, Regards Larry.

14

Perkins V8

One of the first ‘modern’ diesels. Producing 180bhp from 8 litres.

I had two. I wasn’t a mechanic, but being interested in engines from childhood, I could picture how a Diesel engine worked, through all its 4 strokes.

I had previously had a Leyland comet - I think it had the 400 engine, but I could be wrong.

I bought my first BMC Mastiff from Dunderdale and Yates, Preston. 1969. Brian? Clegg was the salesman. It was an unusual era. I would have preferred something with a Gardner or a ■■■■■■■■ but they just weren’t available.

D & Y were also Guy agents, but everything Guy was on a waiting list. To be fair, the Mastiff was a Guy chassis, with a Perkins engine and BMC Cab.

So, I bought a Mastiff. KCK 840H.

Compared to the Comet, it was a dream! Easy to drive, synchro box, or as the Scots called it - sychro! - powerful - well, unless you overloaded it! And comfortable.

The first 70 odd thousand miles were trouble free. I bought a second one LRN 550J.

There was a recall for the oil pump. Apparently, the gears collapsed inside, and unless you noticed the oil pressure fading away - the engine seized!

New oil pumps on both motors, no problem.

I know Bewick had 2 of these and thought they were wonderful, but I suspect he sold them before 150,000 miles! Mine went to about 350,000 miles.

As they began to wear, they pressurised the sump. Oil started to spray up the back of the cab. A gallon a day. I suspect that if I’d redesigned the pressure overflow system by enlarging it greatly, it would have returned the oil to the sump.

The exhaust pipe connections worked loose, everything being rusty by now, replacing the nuts didn’t work. I was reduced to taking coat hangers with me and using the metal to wrap around the connectors to tighten them by twisting the metal with pliers - mostly unsuccessfully.

The rockers on the valves would snap. This was always south of an exhaust valve. The engine would take in the fuel and air and explode it - but there was nowhere for it to go, until the inlet valve opened again. This created a loud noise!

The piston rings would move within the piston. The top piston ring would eventually move enough to make a hole upwards and back into the head. The piston ring would eventually (by eventually I mean when you were going from London to Bristol) start to break up and disintegrate in pieces through to the cylinder head and out of the exhaust valve! You could hear each piece as it snapped off, until there was no top ring left.

Amazingly, the engine would still work and you could still get back to Barrow from Wiltshire. However, of course, you did need an engine rebuild. You could see the 1/4 inch gap in the top of the piston where the ring had come through in pieces.

Any time you took the heads off, they warped slightly. If you didn’t get them skimmed, you were going to have to do it all again within 6 weeks.

Happy days,

John

15

Sounds familiar, John. As documented on another thread, I was persuaded to buy a Ford D-series unit with a V8 Perkins which had had just about survived it’s first life. It managed about five mpg on fuel and not a great lot more on oil. Surprisingly it was a bit like a Gardner in that, as long as you kept pouring fuel and oil through it, it went quite well for some considerable time.

16

I served my time on AEC mammoth major volvo f86 and f7 Leyland octopus and buffalo foden s80 daf2100 erf b series seddon Atkinson 400 then worked on MAN when fleet was changed to solely these . Leyland octopus were prone to kingpins wearing, volvo f7 changed a few oil coolers f86 did few head gaskets and gearbox bearings go foden s80 one was a tractor unit with a ■■■■■■■ 220 other was an eight wheeler with Gardner 180 dafs went through rear springs on six wheelers erf had 265 rr in had two shear roll pins in oil pump idler gear the 4 erf 8 wheelers had 180 gardeners in had one snap rocker arm the MAN were a mix of 8 wheelers and tractor units early MAN with 240 engine in had problems with no 1 piston picking up if water level dropped as header tank was mounted on side of the engine this was moved to fit on rear of cab x member which resolved issue we did have one Leyland with lad cab which was a pain to work on as it was not tilt cab probably there were other issues with the various makes but it was a long time ago

17

Hi, Mick,
I too had a 265 Rolls in a B-series ERF which threw it’s idler roll pins twice. Luckily I noticed the oil pressure dropping on both occasions a nd managed to save the engine. The second time it happened the problem was cured permanently by a couple of dabs of weld on the front of the gear.

18

sounds similar to a 290 rolls in a foden i drove . the power steering went dead , rang the garage and was asked to get it back ( it was damned hard work ) which i did . it turned out that the power steering drive had sheered and wandered round the timing case wrecking all the timing gear . a long expensive job , probably cost more than getting a wrecker out . dave

19

I suppose really that (apart from the BMC’s already mentioned) the Gardner 6LXB/LXC engine’s were the ones that I rebuilt the most, I could almost do them in my sleep. Gearbox wise it would be the Foden 8/9/10/12 speed (or however many you found in there!) that gave the most problems but were easy to work on and we usually kept a spare one built up ready to drop in. The Fuller 'boxes had PTO issues on powder tanker’s, coming loose was the usual problem but easily sorted, the rest of the gearbox was fairly reliable apart from the synchromesh on the range change of course! The rearmost Eaton diffs on the Sed Ak 400’s would shed teeth easily from new but by putting the diff lock in the truck would get back to base, the similar diffs in the Paccar built Fodens gave no such problems for some strange reason? :confused:

After ‘retiring’ from full time work I helped a poor local farmer build a stable block and the lass who kept some nags there had a MAN 7.5 tonne horsebox. The alternator belt was screeching away and the battery went flat so idiot here vounteered to adjust or replace it! The only way the cab could be tilted was to remove the complete floor in the Luton which was secured by around 20 woodscrews which had never been removed in the six years she had owned the thing. Some sheared off, some rounded off, I just wished that I had never started the job. It took around two hours to get the cab up, the belt was just slack and tightened up OK but imagine trying to replace the belt at the roadside? :unamused:

Pete.

20

Retired Old ■■■■:
Hi, Mick,
I too had a 265 Rolls in a B-series ERF which threw it’s idler roll pins twice. Luckily I noticed the oil pressure dropping on both occasions a nd managed to save the engine. The second time it happened the problem was cured permanently by a couple of dabs of weld on the front of the gear.

Hi ROF
luckily both the drivers noticed the drop in oil pressure and stopped immediately thus not damaging the engines. I have read that firms had issues with liner seals and dropped valve inserts on the 265 rolls but we had 12 b series ERF tractor units which were double shifted and had no issues with these. I found them to be a reliable engine they all had the 9 speed fuller gearbox which never gave any issues either. I can only recall having to strip one once to replace a noisy bearing.
Regards
Mick