Franglais:
Hydrogen is not really a fuel “source” is it? It is really a means of storing energy produced by other means: electricity is used to make hydrogen to be reconverted back to electrical energy on a vehicle. Its advantage, as I remember it, is that fuels cells and hydrogen tanks are light for the amount of energy they produce. Hence good for rockets where big power and little weight required. Costs would need to come drastically to be of use in mass transportation. Producing and transporting hydrogen seems to be expensive. I dont see its inflammability as a major concern: there are natural gas and LPG vehicles already, and petrol isnt without hazard. Even if hydrogen were many times as inflammable, the others would still be enough to cook your goose!
Hydrogen produces no pollution at point of use, but it`s production may or may not be “green” depending on how the electricity used to produce it was generated.
Seems a pretty logical choice to me, I think all the boxes are ticked with hydrogen other than its cost. That should come down price wise as an alternative to diesel & petrol.
There are far too many what ifs to make this a reality any time soon. I was at Barton services doing a changeover. How does a driverless truck decide where to drop the trailer? One spot I chose would have dropped the trailer to low to be picked up again. Another was littered with broken bricks that could puncture a tyre.
If there is no where to park, what does the truck do? Stop and not move? As a human you can decide to sit somewhere else but a computer will just stop.
On the way back from Barton the other day, a clown in a fiesta decided overtaking me was a good idea even though there were cars coming. I clocked him moving out and took my foot off the accelerator and braked slightly to let him past and get in. What would a driverless truck do? Either keep going at it’s current speed or stop dead. You couldn’t programme a computer to make the decision to ease off slightly to keep traffic moving and avoid an incident.
If a car gets too close, sensors would presumably activate the brake. Again, this will be either be all of nothing as the microchip can’t think ahead and decide what is adequate. So 44t on a motorway is going to at best slow right down if someone cuts in too early and at worst stop dead and then try to build speed back up again. In 70mph traffic.
Last week in a traffic jam, I let 2 cars in but a third came bombing up the slip road and I knew he was thinking to get I front of me. I thought bugger you pal, and kept going but he came right up close and then started inching his way out. He was actually going to go into the side of me in his insistence of not waiting in the queue behind me so I had to sliw down and let him in. A driverless truck in that instance would, Again, stop. How long do you think it’ll take car drivers to clock a truck will always stop if they get close enough, therefore causing trucks to come to dead halts rather than a human being able to judge and keep things moving?
You can’t make a computer able to think like a real person and make advance judgment calls. This whole idea is a recipe for disaster and is being led by the belief that cutting the wage bill is worth it. In my humble opinion, it’ll never work.
At best, I think it might be possible to get driverless trucks to do the motorway driving but a human will be needed for the rest.
That’s not to mention the insurance side of it. Who gets the blame in an accident? The truck manufacturer? The company who made the driverless software? The “driver” who’s expected to remain alert and vigilant “just incase” for 200 miles of motorway with nothing to do? No one can maintain that level of concentration required. Its impossible.
Like most things, this is being forced on us without anyone thinking of the ramifications but I do believe it’s a long way off from doing drivers out of a job
Put it this way. As someone who’s currently working towards getting my class 2 licence. These platoon lorries or future driverless ones doesn’t deter me. I think I’ve got a long driving career ahead of me.
IronEddie:
Put it this way. As someone who’s currently working towards getting my class 2 licence. These platoon lorries or future driverless ones doesn’t deter me. I think I’ve got a long driving career ahead of me.
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Long career? Start at 21 retire at 66? 45years.
It was in 1972 , 45 years ago that Hewlett Packard launched their Scientific Calculator the HP 35. Cost a fortune too.
One year later we had the first? hand held cell phone, 2kgs.
1980 saw the Sinclair ZX80.
Look up Moores Law on the exponential growth of technology. Carry on and get your license, yes, definitely, but the work world will be very different very soon. And ALL jobs are being affected, miners through to doctors, its all changing, why would driving be exempt? Now, if society were to chose not to accept technology…well, different again.
IronEddie:
Put it this way. As someone who’s currently working towards getting my class 2 licence. These platoon lorries or future driverless ones doesn’t deter me. I think I’ve got a long driving career ahead of me.
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
Long career? Start at 21 retire at 66? 45years.
It was in 1972 , 45 years ago that Hewlett Packard launched their Scientific Calculator the HP 35. Cost a fortune too.
One year later we had the first? hand held cell phone, 2kgs.
1980 saw the Sinclair ZX80.
Look up Moores Law on the exponential growth of technology. Carry on and get your license, yes, definitely, but the work world will be very different very soon. And ALL jobs are being affected, miners through to doctors, its all changing, why would driving be exempt? Now, if society were to chose not to accept technology…well, different again.
I’m not saying I expect it to stay as it currently is or has been in the past. But I think I’ll be able to drive something for a living for a long time to come. I’m young enough, smart enough and technology literate, I can adapt.
Uncertain if this career change will see me to retirement though, I’ve got roughly 4 decades before I hit the current retirement age. So that’s probably unlikely. But I can fall back on IT quals or catering experience or retrain again if needs be.
IronEddie:
Put it this way. As someone who’s currently working towards getting my class 2 licence. These platoon lorries or future driverless ones doesn’t deter me. I think I’ve got a long driving career ahead of me.
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
You will have mate never fear, we have the current invasion of the western world for one thing that will change the continent completely coupled with the coming religious divide, neither of these linked things are going to end well or quickly or peacefully.
Some bods wet dreams of his personal digital utopia will be taking a lot of back shelves in the coming years, if you want to you’ll be driving lorries (possibly rather more armoured than current) of some sort or another for that whole 4 decades if you want to, but there is no doubt the job will be completely different than it is now by the end of it.
I’ve been doing it 4 decades, in many ways the job has changed (some for the worse, some for the better), but fundamentally i still go out and collect or deliver goods just as i did in 1976 when i got me first artic issued, it’s really no different in so many ways.
IronEddie:
Put it this way. As someone who’s currently working towards getting my class 2 licence. These platoon lorries or future driverless ones doesn’t deter me. I think I’ve got a long driving career ahead of me.
Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk
You will have mate never fear, we have the current invasion of the western world for one thing that will change the continent completely coupled with the coming religious divide, neither of these linked things are going to end well or quickly or peacefully.
Some bods wet dreams of his personal digital utopia will be taking a lot of back shelves in the coming years, if you want to you’ll be driving lorries (possibly rather more armoured than current) of some sort or another for that whole 4 decades if you want to, but there is no doubt the job will be completely different than it is now by the end of it.
I’ve been doing it 4 decades, in many ways the job has changed (some for the worse, some for the better), but fundamentally i still go out and collect or deliver goods just as i did in 1976 when i got me first artic issued, it’s really no different in so many ways.
The way you make it sound mate I think I need I licence for tracked vehicles so I can go pilot a tank! Armoured lorries makes me think of mad max!
Thougth a bit more about this truly fascinating subject, (after a couple of voddies).
I truck with another close behind it. I know, how about a 4 axle rigid pulling a 4 axle rigid trailer, firmly coupled to the lead vehicle by a robust A frame towing attachment complete with all the necessary air and electric lines .
On specially designated main highways you could even add another trailer,or two. Mmmm
the trailers could couple to their leading 4 wheels via a 5th wheel mounted on the A frame towing unit. Thus trailers could be dropped off at delivery points and loads moved by shunt units, then the driver- eerrr wait a minute, What do you mean they use 8 x 8 combinations in New Zealand ?, well i never.
Alright scrap that, how about a top weight artic unit, with a semi trailer, towing a 2 axle dolly with a 5th wheel and a 2nd semi trailer coupled to that . What! They are called B trains and they are used all over the world. and all this with one driver. what ever next.?
Changing tack slightly , notice how many already call these proposed ‘platoons’ convoys.
You can just picture it., 'OK Jeremy, what we need is a word to replace ‘Convoy’,sounds too much like that dreadful American film some years ago. something that’s got a reassuring ring to it, make the public imagine its all under control, a bit like the Army. Do your best, there’s a good chap.
So thats settled then, Convoys it is.
all very well going on about self drive lorries,but if they are packed with the technology needed who’s going to be able to afford them,only the big boys like stobarts,nobby dentrangle and so on,companies like the one I work for I doubt will even entertain them let alone afford them,stobarts and nobby may be big but even they can’t cover every job in this country as much as they would like to,so in my opinion the smaller companies will still be in demand,even more so when these self drive lorries go wrong which I reckon they will,drivers still needed for them may well bring them back under control but if it’s computer related and expensive to repair,well, lets just wait and see.
tonyj105:
Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell car, on sale now, best only used round london,thats where all the filling stations are apparently
I’m not familiar enough with hydrogen fuel cells to be able to discuss them properly. I do know that the hydrogen isn’t burnt like in standard engines, it flows between two contacts, generating enough electricity to charge a battery.
I’d always believed that rare materials like hydrogen didn’t flow very well. Any ADR drivers with experience of it, I’d much appreciate your knowledge on this.
the most efficient way to power vehicles with hydrogen is exactly what we are doing now with Diesel engines, after all the active part of diesel and pertrol (hydrocarbon fuels) is hydrogen. Problem is though the oxygen used in the combustion attaches itself to the carbon that the hydrogen is hidden inside of and is released back into the atmosphere from where it once came as CO2.
I don’t see pure hydrogen taking over from fossil fuels anytime soon within haulage. It may be the lightest of all the elements but takes up stupid amounts of room. even cryogenically freezing down to -250c when it turns into a liquid it still takes up about 3x the space of diesel for the same energy, your fuel tanks will need to be three times bigger just for the same range. And as Hydrogen as a pure element is incredibly dangerous (unlike the safe way it is stored in fuel oil) the tanks will need to be of huge strength, and considering the amount of clowns on our roads do we really want vehicles driving round with hue tanks filled with hydrogen? - all accidents will just be like the american movies where vehicles burst into an enormous fireball in any collision.
tonyj105:
Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell car, on sale now, best only used round london,thats where all the filling stations are apparently
I’m not familiar enough with hydrogen fuel cells to be able to discuss them properly. I do know that the hydrogen isn’t burnt like in standard engines, it flows between two contacts, generating enough electricity to charge a battery.
I’d always believed that rare materials like hydrogen didn’t flow very well. Any ADR drivers with experience of it, I’d much appreciate your knowledge on this.
the most efficient way to power vehicles with hydrogen is exactly what we are doing now with Diesel engines, after all the active part of diesel and pertrol (hydrocarbon fuels) is hydrogen. Problem is though the oxygen used in the combustion attaches itself to the carbon that the hydrogen is hidden inside of and is released back into the atmosphere from where it once came as CO2.
I don’t see pure hydrogen taking over from fossil fuels anytime soon within haulage. It may be the lightest of all the elements but takes up stupid amounts of room. even cryogenically freezing down to -250c when it turns into a liquid it still takes up about 3x the space of diesel for the same energy, your fuel tanks will need to be three times bigger just for the same range. And as Hydrogen as a pure element is incredibly dangerous (unlike the safe way it is stored in fuel oil) the tanks will need to be of huge strength, and considering the amount of clowns on our roads do we really want vehicles driving round with hue tanks filled with hydrogen? - all accidents will just be like the american movies where vehicles burst into an enormous fireball in any collision.
Hydrogen wont be in common use for a while, if ever, agreed. If efficient in this case means cheap, easy, convenient then agreed. The Problem is the hydrogen from carbon fuels is clearly not carbon neutral, agreed. Thats why were doing away with conventional IC petrol/diesel engines in cars. Werent we, or shouldnt we, be discussing the use of hydrogen produced from electrolysis, which can be carbon neutral. The only advantage or more accurately, need, of hydrogen as an automotive fuel is if its carbon neutral. So long as the electricity used to produce that hydrogen comes from sustainable carbon neutral sources (a very big IF) then all`s good. That is why we need to consider the use of fuel cells etc. Some other current problems are that commercially produced (cheaper) hydrogen comes from the steam reforming process which is both inefficient and not carbon neutral. There are some major problems in the hydrogen as a fuel idea but given it can be carbon neutral then it will be pushed forward.
switchlogic:
To be honest though those of you thinking they won’t be able to make this work on UK roads are just engaging in wishful thinking. I don’t like the idea of doing away with our jobs any more than you do but this is coming and coming fast.
I agree.
There is always one thing that makes me chuckle in threads discussing autonomous lorries and that is the same old posters with the same old posts that, in just a few words, can tell us for sure that it will never work. Now, who should we believe? Joe Bloggs the moaning lorry driver who finds fault in everything and always knows better regardless of the subject, or the likes of Mercedes, Volvo and ZF, who between them collectively have already invested billions in developing autonomous technology? Tricky one, that.
As for the tech already being there, I went to a briefing given by Volvo well over a year ago and when Dynamic Steering and the topographical software is fitted to one of its current-generation trucks, it is not far off having a vehicle on the road now that can drive itself on a motorway. Add a few sensors for vehicles in adjacent lanes and the like, and it’s as good as complete.
Olog Hai:
As for the tech already being there, I went to a briefing given by Volvo well over a year ago and when Dynamic Steering and the topographical software is fitted to one of its current-generation trucks, it is not far off having a vehicle on the road now that can drive itself on a motorway. Add a few sensors for vehicles in adjacent lanes and the like, and it’s as good as complete.
But the question is not whether a few autonomous vehicles can mostly travel a motorway, if there is a desire to eliminate the driver completely.
It’s how an appreciable number of autonomous vehicles behave around each other, how they react in degraded circumstances and whether they continue to make progress, and how they interact with human-controlled traffic in a wider set of circumstances (including how humans may adapt to the presence of a larger number of autonomous vehicles). None of this is currently being trialled.
There is undoubtedly a use for all the technology being developed, but for now any road-based implementation is likely to be similar to autopilot - a facility that drivers switch on and off when they are going steady on the motorway, or something that suppresses grossly erroneous control by the driver (such as sideswipes, rear-ending, falling asleep and leaving the carriageway, and so on), rather than a replacement for drivers.
And if the driver is still needed in the cab at all at any stage of the journey, it will probably remain the most efficient solution to have him in the cab for the entire duration.
I don’t understand why this obsession with automating everything to the extreme. Not the small picture, the little excuses, but the big picture. WALL E . Just because we can doesn’t mean we should. Humans when they get an obsession don’t know when to cork it.
I think those idiot smart phones have already made nobs of humans and social interaction. All that guff about connectivity. What a load of balony we’ve sold ourselves. I was away and the 15 late teen/early twenty year olds amongst us didn’t speak to each other other than the odd interaction. Just sat with faces glued to electric blue screens, heads bent over. Humans and technology. It’s like handing the sword of discovery to a dullard.
Maybe one day, deep sea ship voyages will have no humans on board, on a journey from Hong Kong to Los Angeles to London to Cape Town.
Automated robotic cranes will unload the ships containers, if its a bulker, the scoopers will be robots.
What about four or five coaches with one driver ?
Passenger and freight trains with no human driver ?
toby1234abc:
Maybe one day, deep sea ship voyages will have no humans on board, on a journey from Hong Kong to Los Angeles to London to Cape Town.
Automated robotic cranes will unload the ships containers, if its a bulker, the scoopers will be robots.
What about four or five coaches with one driver ?
Passenger and freight trains with no human driver ?
I think the shipping companies are quite far down the road with automated ships already. I think that’s coming shortly. Concerns like piracy could be easily dealt with using secure hatches, secured control systems. Plus no humans on board to use as bargaining chips.
toby1234abc:
Maybe one day, deep sea ship voyages will have no humans on board, on a journey from Hong Kong to Los Angeles to London to Cape Town.
Automated robotic cranes will unload the ships containers, if its a bulker, the scoopers will be robots.
What about four or five coaches with one driver ?
Passenger and freight trains with no human driver ?
I think the shipping companies are quite far down the road with automated ships already. I think that’s coming shortly. Concerns like piracy could be easily dealt with using secure hatches, secured control systems. Plus no humans on board to use as bargaining chips.
Aren’t they doing a lot with automated box handling on the quayside already.
. Just because we can doesn’t mean we should. Humans when they get an obsession don’t know when to cork it.