GasGas:
If I was leader of the Tory party I’d do all I could to encourage a Yes vote: without Scottish MPs England & Wales would have a guaranteed Tory Gvt for ever!
Indeed, and you would have thought that Labour would support a yes vote too, if the SNP can be dumped after independence, Labour will have a chance of forming a permanent government somewhere - Scotland.
However, both are bound by their history. The official name of the Tory party is The Conservative and Unionist Party, and Labour is hogtied by the historic principle of internationalism socialism.
Frazer smith:
As far as I know Scotland has put more into the pot in the last 8 years than it has got out of it then before that it was still recovering from the years of thatcher rule when the Tories all but ended coal mining closed the biggest and most money making steel plant in Europe at the time not to mention the quality of steel it produced the Leland plant cat plant etc. And you wonder why our benefits went sky high.
Now we have a chance not to let that ever happen again. As for not having any money to pay anything at the moment we don’t have that as all the money goes to London and they give us our pocket money to buy our treats that we get taxed on again that then goes back to London again so why would we better staying
Well said Frazer Smith, for too long a Westminster establishment obsessed with London and the south east has held back the Scottish economy.
Well coming fro the north east England we have.
A lot. Of sympathy for the arguments of the yes vote, but if I had a vote my heart would say yes and my head would say no.
One thing tat has been admitted by the yes campaign but not pushed to the fore is independence would mean having to have mass immigration to raise the population.whichever way the vote goes one thing is guaranteed, the ordinary workers will get screwed and the professional politicians will benefit.
teflon:
Well coming fro the north east England we have.
A lot. Of sympathy for the arguments of the yes vote, but if I had a vote my heart would say yes and my head would say no.
One thing tat has been admitted by the yes campaign but not pushed to the for is independence would mean having to have mass immigration to raise the population.whichever way the vote goes one thing is guaranteed, the ordinary workers will get screwed and the professional politicians will benefit.
No problem there then, they’re all waiting at Calais for the call.
Winseer:
It’s fair to say that despite any dislike of Salmond - There’s growing momentum in the campaign just to be shot of the Tories.
Labour stand to lose more though - they still have MPs left in Scotland right now… What do the Tories have to lose? - Their last seat of Dumfrieshire Tweeddale, & Clydesdale?
The danger of Scotland having too weak an economy (from their own currency) would be pressure from the EU to “come and join us”.
If the EU manage to effectively annex the current UK’s oil fields, then we can kiss goodbye to any kind of economic power in the British isles forever!
Having “Great Heritage” and “strong maritime traditions” didn’t save Greece from the EU - and I imagine it would be very similar in the way the EU deals with an independent Scotland.
An asset to be grabbed, the people no longer having any power to stop it.
At least within the Union - Any attempts to bolster stronger ties with Brussels will be met with damnation at the ballot box for the offending party.
The Tory support from “Law and Order” backers has all but been lost since 2010.
LibDem support going over to the SNP is also giving the “Yes” campaign a backdoor boost as well.
I reckon if we break up the UK - we’d need to leave NATO as well - lest we get sucked into foreign policy that we just cannot afford any more.
No wonder the USA wants us all to stay together!
I’ve said it before - Only an Idiot like Cameron could allow such a referendum to go ahead whilst postponing the far more positive referendum of “getting us all out of Europe”.
Just as Hitler found himself waging the “wrong war” - Cameron, the Tories, and even disgruntled Labour are about to do more damage to the UK than the Nazis ever did.
We’ll be fit for the dustbin that is non-power membership of the EU (like Greece) if something drastic doesn’t change in the 11th hour we are fast approaching…
The last time London rebelled against the State - the former head of state lost his head! - No need for anything quite so dramatic now. Just a “Thatcher style” removal of Cameron in the next few days will do.
I wonder if Boris is the man, acting still as Mayor of London - to wield the proverbial knife?
I reckon other leading Tories would get out of his way should he advance against Cameron & Osbourne. Not currently being an MP means he can actually survive the “assassinate the assassin” tradition in the aftermath as well.
Firstly the oil has already been annexed by the big multinational oil companies and has benefited the German economy,amongst others,more than ours.IE we export oil and import manufactured goods so they can pay for it thereby putting our own workers on the dole and creating a toxic economic environment of worthless cash and only imports to spend it on.While we pay as much for our own oil as the Germans etc do.In that environment Scottish independence with a ‘real’ nationalist government ( as opposed to a socialist one masquerading as nationalist can only be better for Scotland ).
As for the rest the inconvenient examples of Norway and pre EU Ireland are enough to wipe out all the other unionist side scare arguments.
The issue in that case being if they are going for independence and a nationalist government then do it properly by dumping Salmond’s socialist ideology and then follow the Norwegian example in its breakaway from Sweden,in terms of not needing EU membership and having a seperate currency etc after what will hopefully be a yes vote.
As for the English it’s time to start forgetting about the idea of the Union and start looking after ourselves.Instead of using our money to bribe the Scottish etc to keep the idea,in which English policy is made by foreign non English MP’s,going.IE when policy is implemented here I expect to have electoral control over it and not the situation where what happens here is decided in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
But how much money heads south to the treasury coffers in relation to the amount that comes back north of the border, and a yes vote is NOT a vote for Salmond but a vote for FREEDOM
raymundo:
But how much money heads south to the treasury coffers in relation to the amount that comes back north of the border, and a yes vote is NOT a vote for Salmond but a vote for FREEDOM
If it’s true that the Scottish can’t look after themselves without English cash then the answer is obvious.Whatever the answer there’s nothing in it for either side one of us is being taken for mugs.The same can be said for a non regional English government and economy.
One impact I do know about if it’s a yes vote, then all those people with private plates are going to be out of pocket. As vehicles will have to be registered for tax purposes in Scotland under a new Scottish DVLA, which like every other country will have it’s own plates.
It’s only “freedom” if it’s known in advance the simple but elusive “fact” of “Scotland Profits” or “Scotland Loses”.
It’s quite clear that, arguments aside, the argument was not won outright by either side, and therefore caution is required.
If you chuck it all away, and it then turns out to be a total disaster - It’s not going to be possible to turn the clock back without a fantastically high price to be paid by ALL concerned.
The pound is slumping on Forex today, as the uncertain future of a possibly diluted pound suggests it should in the short term.
OIL is slumping too, with Brent Crude today falling back below $100 for the first time in a year. Would the market be flooded with North Sea Brent because the new Scotland won’t have any other way of raising money than to take the “Venuzeula” approach to their economy?
In the longer term, the EU gains power over both “smaller” England, Wales, & Scotland. Smaller means “easier to control” for them.
Imagine what would have happened 100 years ago if the UK had “split up” over the issue of “going to war with Germany or not” - with the inevitable consquence, that the war would have been lost outright, due to our new political low internationally…
Looks like we’ve been given a second chance to “lose” and “throw it all away” by pretty much the same Euro factions as before. A Germany that thinks it owns everything just because their economy turns a profit, and everyone south of the 48th parallel ends up being subsidised, and are therefore “kept” nations under their yoke…
Did we win the war only for that “win” to have a mere 100 year lease?
Winseer:
It’s only “freedom” if it’s known in advance the simple but elusive “fact” of “Scotland Profits” or “Scotland Loses”.
It’s quite clear that, arguments aside, the argument was not won outright by either side, and therefore caution is required.
If you chuck it all away, and it then turns out to be a total disaster - It’s not going to be possible to turn the clock back without a fantastically high price to be paid by ALL concerned.
The pound is slumping on Forex today, as the uncertain future of a possibly diluted pound suggests it should in the short term.
OIL is slumping too, with Brent Crude today falling back below $100 for the first time in a year. Would the market be flooded with North Sea Brent because the new Scotland won’t have any other way of raising money than to take the “Venuzeula” approach to their economy?
In the longer term, the EU gains power over both “smaller” England, Wales, & Scotland. Smaller means “easier to control” for them.
Imagine what would have happened 100 years ago if the UK had “split up” over the issue of “going to war with Germany or not” - with the inevitable consquence, that the war would have been lost outright, due to our new political low internationally…
Looks like we’ve been given a second chance to “lose” and “throw it all away” by pretty much the same Euro factions as before. A Germany that thinks it owns everything just because their economy turns a profit, and everyone south of the 48th parallel ends up being subsidised, and are therefore “kept” nations under their yoke…
Did we win the war only for that “win” to have a mere 100 year lease?
The only way that the EU can control anyone is by them being a member of that federation which is where we are already.
There is no more reason as to why Scottish independence should be a disaster as there is in the case of Norway being independent of Sweden.
As for the economic indicators that’s probably more a sign that the bankers don’t like the idea of a Britain in which the South East no longer struggles to keep bribes heading northwards to keep the outdated idea of the Union going.
pepsifarr:
One impact I do know about if it’s a yes vote, then all those people with private plates are going to be out of pocket. As vehicles will have to be registered for tax purposes in Scotland under a new Scottish DVLA, which like every other country will have it’s own plates.
Ireland used their share of the British Isles system up until 1986. Up to a time before then, plates could transfer over to GB.
It’s sad, very sad. Whatever the outcome the two opposing camps in the vote will have to continue living next door to each other ( quite literally ) for a long time. The reinforcement of the old fracture lines of Scottish society ( Highland vs Lowland, Protestant vs Catholic ) do not fill me with great optimism regarding the nation’s future in any result.
The U.K.'s political system is long overdue a large kick up the backside but I do not believe that Scottish independence is the answer. It is vital that any nation founded on Common Law and Habeus Corpus ( like the nations of the UK, USA, Australia etc ) needs two layers of government. An upper and a lower house to provide the necessary checks and balances on the arbitrary abuses of power. An example of the contrary would be the ■■■■’s legitimate election to power in Germany. With no upper house the Nazis simply voted to end democracy. A similar practice goes on today in the Middle East where certain countries will have one election once and then dissolve any opposition.
I suggest that the idea of a National Assembly should be extended to England. With each home nation then having its own legislature to deal with tax, fiscal matters, benefits, health and education etc. the House of Commons could be done away with. The House of Lords, now reduced to a talking shop of ex-party cronies and placemen, could be replaced with a new UK-wide elected Senate to deal with monetary policies, defence and foreign relations. This need not meet exclusively in London but could easily be carried out in Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast as the need arose.
Such an arrangement would satisfy the absolute need for a two tier “checks and balances” government while satisfying the national aspirations of the member home nations.
viking7000:
I dread to think what will happen if N.Ireland start pushing for independence.
They would be due it
Do you suppose it would be a piecefull affair like Scotland? I doubt it. How can you have a Scottish vote and not let N.Ireland?
They should have a vote for the English to leave the snobby ruling classes we have had to endure for far longer than Scotland or Ireland ever did.
I’ve always liked the idea of a kind of “Senetorial” system where each county has a single representetive in the upper house, in our case the house of lords.
We already have some 650 seats for MPs at present, and may well be about to lose the 59 Scottish ones.
There are 48 counties plus the 83 inner city boroughs that could all be put togther to form extra single seats representing entire metropolitan areas. A entire metropolis has a comparable population to an entire county if one lets it average out, and places the boundaries carefully to prevent rural areas not getting enough representation due to otherwise lower populations around farm areas.
Future private members bills have to be submitted to the county “Lord” for representation in the upper house, thus bypassing the current ■■■■■■■■ that involves handing white papers back and forth, which has always rendered it very easy to block new, suggested legislation that is popular with the general public. The public submitting amendments to their local county representative would also find it easier to get new, highly popular legislation on the statute books. If we had such a system in place already, we could have used it for example to bring forward an EU referendum, “recall” any cabinet minister halfway through their term on a local public vote of no confidence, and generally empower the public to scare the crap out of our so-called “elected MPs” at all times - thus keeping them on their toes, and actually doing what it says on the tin - acting for their electorate’s benefit rather than playing their own agendas merely to get re-elected in 5 years time…
Diesel Weasel:
It’s sad, very sad. Whatever the outcome the two opposing camps in the vote will have to continue living next door to each other ( quite literally ) for a long time. The reinforcement of the old fracture lines of Scottish society ( Highland vs Lowland, Protestant vs Catholic ) do not fill me with great optimism regarding the nation’s future in any result.
The U.K.'s political system is long overdue a large kick up the backside but I do not believe that Scottish independence is the answer. It is vital that any nation founded on Common Law and Habeus Corpus ( like the nations of the UK, USA, Australia etc ) needs two layers of government. An upper and a lower house to provide the necessary checks and balances on the arbitrary abuses of power. An example of the contrary would be the ■■■■’s legitimate election to power in Germany. With no upper house the Nazis simply voted to end democracy. A similar practice goes on today in the Middle East where certain countries will have one election once and then dissolve any opposition.
I suggest that the idea of a National Assembly should be extended to England. With each home nation then having its own legislature to deal with tax, fiscal matters, benefits, health and education etc. the House of Commons could be done away with. The House of Lords, now reduced to a talking shop of ex-party cronies and placemen, could be replaced with a new UK-wide elected Senate to deal with monetary policies, defence and foreign relations. This need not meet exclusively in London but could easily be carried out in Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast as the need arose.
Such an arrangement would satisfy the absolute need for a two tier “checks and balances” government while satisfying the national aspirations of the member home nations.
How do you reach the conclusion that a civilised form of government is mutually exclusive to Scottish ( and English ) independence.Being that the German ■■■■ Party was born out of an environment of the unification of Germany as a country just like the UK.The fact is history shows that is more likely,for federations of whatever type to turn into dictatorial monsters,than for seperate nation states.
IE Norman,Plantagenet and Hanovarian Britain was not much different to ■■■■ Germany in that regard in it’s relationship to its conquered Celtic neighbours.Which is the reality of what the Union is founded on.
Winseer:
I’ve always liked the idea of a kind of “Senetorial” system where each county has a single representetive in the upper house, in our case the house of lords.
We already have some 650 seats for MPs at present, and may well be about to lose the 59 Scottish ones.
There are 48 counties plus the 83 inner city boroughs that could all be put togther to form extra single seats representing entire metropolitan areas. A entire metropolis has a comparable population to an entire county if one lets it average out, and places the boundaries carefully to prevent rural areas not getting enough representation due to otherwise lower populations around farm areas.
Future private members bills have to be submitted to the county “Lord” for representation in the upper house, thus bypassing the current ■■■■■■■■ that involves handing white papers back and forth, which has always rendered it very easy to block new, suggested legislation that is popular with the general public. The public submitting amendments to their local county representative would also find it easier to get new, highly popular legislation on the statute books. If we had such a system in place already, we could have used it for example to bring forward an EU referendum, “recall” any cabinet minister halfway through their term on a local public vote of no confidence, and generally empower the public to scare the crap out of our so-called “elected MPs” at all times - thus keeping them on their toes, and actually doing what it says on the tin - acting for their electorate’s benefit rather than playing their own agendas merely to get re-elected in 5 years time…
The idea of senates,consolidation,grouping and federations is basically Roman type dictatorship and the very anti thesis of localised Anglo Saxon English government.At least until Athelstan started the rot of federalising England.
