Saviem Trucks

Hey Anorak, OM’s were sold in different countries,belgium,the Nederlands,Switserland even in France and Germany under the name Fiat 190 and grille. But for France I don’t think the OM 190 340hp was sold but surely the Titano and 150’s which had an Unic engine too.
I think Fiat built the cheapest things together because it was a closed market and so could offer feet owners cheap butter and tea trucks. But after 1977 they had to work one’s way up fast because of the free market,and so regrouped the companies by Iveco but let for at while use their own names. But now with all the same specification,engines and so on, except for Germans Maggie an air cooled one. But from then on every make had it’s counties a bit,of course always alone Fiat presence. By then Unic stpped on the Belgian market to sell. I think that Unic developed the cab by it’s own■■? and OM hadn’t the money to develop and wanted the Unic 340 to offer it’s customers a top power truck in Italy and other countries. And Fiat’s own 6 in line wasn’t much behind the V8 with it’s nearly 14 litres, so it could easily uprated it to about 320/340hp.

Cheers Eric,

[zb]
anorak:
Hi Tiptop. I thought the SM280/300/340 V8s had the old D21 MAN engine, with power outputs as you describe. The D28 was a much later (1980s?) bored-out version of the D25, which was the result of the Mercedes collaboration. Correct me if I am wrong.

I did not realise that OM’s were sold in Belgium or, indeed, anywhere else other than Italy. I am surprised that they were considered to be a cheaper lorry than Unic, given that the OM 340V8 was, as you say, a badge-engineered Unic 340V8- in other words, practically identical. Fiat’s policy in the late 1960s was unusual: they spent all the money to develop a new cab, then put the tilting version on Unic and OM while restricting themselves to the fixed version. They allowed Unic and OM to use the big V8 engine, but their own range had only a six cylinder engine. Why would they give their own products an inferior specification to those of their subsidiaries?

Hey Anorak, The Saviem 280,(not the 280TU which was a turbo six in line)300 and 340,respectively MAN’s 19250,19275,19304 were an own MAN design V8 engine which was used much longer by Saviem as MAN while MAN in the beginning of the ‘70’ already switch over to the MB/MAN designed V engines 6,8,10,12 cyl (but only MB used the V6). The MAN’s own design was called D26,D27,D28 which means always a bit bigger bore to get a bit more capacity and so to get more power without a turbo,after several disaster turbo engines.
The new V engine MB/MAN range was the D25,later with longer stroke and bigger bore as the D28 sold, both the D25 and 28 were avialable as 6 in line too with 11.4 and 12 litres for busses. But with the arrival of the D28 MAN stayed with the D25 but 6 in line with turbo now,which was the first real success for MAN with turbo’s. Later the D28 6 in line as the 19361/362 and so on,and only used the V D28’s for heavy duty trucks and building-in engines (boats, generators and so on). But later on again for it’s flag ships the 462/502/603.
Which was not so a great success (difficulties to match big power with low fuel consumption).

Bye Eric,

michel:
Do our friend “Saviem” recognize any people ?

Evening all, michel, where on earth do you unearth these photographs from■■?

This picture, long story, and by necessity some history,… hope I do not prove dull!

The photograph shown by michel was taken Saturday 25. 08 78, at the Onatra Depot, Saint Auban sur Durance, photographed by J P Therene Digne, on the occasion of the Grand Onatra/Saviem “open door event”, held jointly at Onatras Saint Auban Branch, and the grand Chateaux Arnoux, at Saint Auban.

Saint Auban sur Durance was opened by Jean Arconstanzo in 1950, to serve a Bauxite Contract with lUsine dAluminium de Saint Aubain, and later L`Usine Pechiney . Onatra used 8 cylinder Willeme rigids for this contract, later replaced by Berliet TLM 10 2s, equipped with the twin lever, (“tricateuse”), 10 speed gearboxes. Incidentally, the original Onatra “ruby red” livery was used because of the staining of Bauxite, which left a ruby red residue on the vehicles. These Berliets were normally running with Marseille trailer builder Coder, tipping trailer chasssis, fitted with Marrel bodies.

1972, Jean Arconstanzo negotiates with Dutch Group Pakhoed 50% share of Onatra.
1973, 10 Berliet TR280s purchased for “evaluation”.
03.73. 400 Saviem tractors purchased SM 260/SM300 V8s.
02 75. 100% Share holding acquired by Packhoed, via the new holding company Packtrans.
Two new Director Generals, M Lambert, and M F Weber.
New Dutch subsidiary Onatra Pays Bas, under M Van Emerick at Rotterdam.

1975, Onatra is losing FF 200,000,000. per month!
03.76 Jean Arcostanzo retires.
New PDG appointed, Freddy Van Gaever, plus two new Directors Genereaux Jean Guieu, (who had a liking for white suits)!, and JP Josien.
1976 100 DAF 2800DKTD purchased, (the Dutch influence).

So that is the history, (in precis), and here we are in 1978.
Saint Auban was operating around 50 Saviem 340 units, on both Bulk Tank, and Tilt work. Onatra had a very conservative approach to vehicle specification, “keep it simple”. Big power, delivered reliably, and change the units every two years! In this they were the total opposite to normal French transport thinking…Oh and acquire the lorries at the “best price” only!!

The SM 340 V8 was a superb “fleet” lorry, big power, (for its time), and ultra reliable. Onatras drivers loved them, either on domestic work, or “local” European, Spain, (400 loads per month), Italy, the Low Countries, or the Middle East.

Following the Saviem/Berliet merger in `75, we still persued individual marketing paths, and remained seperate Networks. However by 78, the decisions had been made that the standard “heavy” would come from Lyon, and the medium/lightweights from Blainville. But Saviem still had a contract with MAN to take a volume of 6, and 8 cylinder engines. The later 6 would go into the new PS30, but the V8s would run out on the SM340s.

Onatra`s market policy of new vehicles every two years was an ideal opportunity for “us”, to deplete the production of SM 340s, and for Onatra to acquire some low cost reliable tractors, a marriage made in heaven!!!.

Following on the order for 200 Saviems , we negotiated a further 100, mainly SM340s. The 300th vehicle, Onatra fleet number SAT 530, (Saint Auban, Tractor, number 530), Registered 4824GY13 was to be handed over on Saturday 25 03 78, to Freddy Van Gaever in person at Saint Auban.

But what a handover…Onatra were having bad press, yet were arguably France`s largest haulier employing nearly 1000 people, and operating over 1000 trailers, Tankers, Tilts, Tippers, and nearly 700 Tractors, 204 Magirus Deutz, 120 DAF, and 315 Saviem, plus other “bits”.

Onatra responded well to the idea of an “open door day” at Saint Auban, plus Fete, and Gymkhana, (at the "swish " venue of Chateaux Arnoux) to include employees, their families, locals, and local dignateries, Onatra, and Saviem Management and employees, (from the Saviem side, both Suresnes, and SaviFrance Marseille), and what I personally considered a very courageous decision by Freddy, representatives from both National and Local media and Press, who could throw questions at Freddy, and his Co Directors regarding the performance of Onatra the company.

The “event” would occupy over 18 hours on the 25.03.78. and was incredibly successfull. The reaction of the General Public, (who perhaps knew little of" our" industry), the drivers, who had the opportunity of showing off “their” workplace to their wives and children, and local and national media, who are always hungry for a new story.

Couple that with a local “craft”, and art exhibition, "our ", (my)■■? Gymkhana idea, a Boules competition, ride and drive, childrens competitions, a film show, (Le Carroserie des Sables, a film produced by Good Year, about Onatra`s Middle East work), Le Jazz,

and TVF3, attending to report on the event for National TV.topped, of course, by a “Buffet Campagnard”, and finished in grand style by a Grand Ball, with Dancing till midnight!!

Who did we have there, apart from Onatra, and Saviem People, and the local Mayor, Chamber of Commerce, et al? Well, from the press, M Etienne, Nice Matin, Mlle Chabaud, Head of Publicity La Marsellaise, and the “delightfull” Mlle Thelene, (probably now an old wrinkled Grannie)!!! All of whom threw real hard questions at Freddy, who with adroit skill fielded the lot succesfully…and gained great deal of credible, positive press coverage!!

Then of course there were the “all day” photographs. Big Cheesess, Little Cheeses. michel your picture!

Well of course from left to right you have, M Turpin, Director of SaviFrance Marseille, J P Josien Di Grazia, Onatra Vitrolles, Freddt Van Gaever, President Director General, Onatra Vitrolles, Jean Gieu, Onatra Vitrolles,M Percheron, Commercial Attache Saviem, then a mixed bag of “also rans”, in no particular order, containing… M Malpeyre Director Onatra Saint Auban, JM Pisani Regional Director Saviem, M Millaf, Technical Saviem, My Boss, M Frachon, Publicity Saviem, and a refugee lorry driver from Shropshire, (who was hoping that the Buffet would be of good standard)!!!

michel, your collection is so comprehensive that you may have a picture of the handover of the PS30 demonstrator to Freddy on the same day…boy, we did get told off about that…TRs were the way forward for RVI, not Saviems!

10.1978, Onatra was acquired by the Belgian Group, Ibel-Almado , the only noticeable change to the vehicles being the replacement of the “hat” symbol by a large “T” on all the trailers.

1980, Freddy Van Gaevers left the Group.

michel, thank you for the picture, that really set the " little grey cells" working…such happy memories, people, places, and the most incredible Jazz Swing Orchestra, I have ever enjoyed.

Cheerio for now.

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Steve

Bought this new in 1979 worst thing I’ve ever driven but ohh so cheap

The silly things you do when your young, it cost the same as a deposit on a DAF

Alinfrance:
Bought this new in 1979 worst thing I’ve ever driven but ohh so cheap
The silly things you do when your young, it cost the same as a deposit on a DAF

What was wrong with it?

Alinfrance:
Bought this new in 1979 worst thing I’ve ever driven but ohh so cheap

The silly things you do when your young, it cost the same as a deposit on a DAF

Must have been Europes most expensive DAF…ever!

An SM280tu was about 240bhp, which would have pitched it against a 2800DKTD. What was the difference in price between those two, based on a one-off order to an owner-driver?

[zb]
anorak:
An SM280tu was about 240bhp, which would have pitched it against a 2800DKTD. What was the difference in price between those two, based on a one-off order to an owner-driver?

Based on my opinion as a driver all the numbers in the world wouldn’t make this thing pull any better.It was in its day the Skoda of the truck world, everything about it was cheap, which is what it was about for the manufacturer make profit.On paper it looked fine but with 20 tons behind it that’s a different thing, I managed to keep mine for a year doing Italy but it spent too much time in the workshop so I went Vovo F12 and that’ s another world. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

This truck was registered in Leicestershire , I doubt whether you were the 1st owner as it looks suspiciously like one of Greens from Ellistown/ Coalville . If this was the case it had had a hard life prior to your purchase subbing to Sherwoods on bulk tippers !!!

I’m intrigued to know more, as is the way when people purchase secondhand trucks they don’t always look into where it’s come from standard of maintenance etc , the 2nd/ 3rd owner gets all the grief and a very biased opinion of the vehicle .

I hope I’ve not jumped to the wrong conclusion and look forward to more info !!!

Alinfrance:
I hope I’ve not jumped to the wrong conclusion and look forward to more info !!!

Yes you have jumped to the wrong conclusion I 'd know the difference between a new truck and a second hand one and this was brand new bought in the Nottingham/Leics area, even though it performed like a second hand one.It was bought with me and another guy and we did Prato for about a year before finally giving it up for the F12

Stralisnumerouno:
before finally giving it up for the F12

The F12 in action queue on Mont Cenis
And yes is was brand new and came from Volvo at Kirby

This is preserved.

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Steve

michel:
This is preserved.

Very nice Michel - Are there many in preservation in France :question:

Thanks
Steve

Alinfrance:

[zb]
anorak:
An SM280tu was about 240bhp, which would have pitched it against a 2800DKTD. What was the difference in price between those two, based on a one-off order to an owner-driver?

Based on my opinion as a driver all the numbers in the world wouldn’t make this thing pull any better.It was in its day the Skoda of the truck world, everything about it was cheap, which is what it was about for the manufacturer make profit.On paper it looked fine but with 20 tons behind it that’s a different thing, I managed to keep mine for a year doing Italy but it spent too much time in the workshop so I went Vovo F12 and that’ s another world. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Evening all, well I do not know you, or your driving ability/operating standard, but if any one knew how to drive, then the Turbo Saviem, with the UK spec ZF AK 6.90 12 speed was not a bad old thing to use! And quite a spirited and economic performer at “our” meagre 32tons GTW. (Wherever you chose to pull it)!!

I speak with some personal experience of the roads into Italy, (prior to De Gauls big opening of Mont Blanc), gained on Fodens, with 4cylinder Gardners, then big power 150s, and 180s, oh and with 20tons plus payloads, and always over the top, in or out of Italia!

Your photograph does not show much of the vehicle, but the (hastily), cobbled on UK numberplate, over the handwritten French works 92 plate looks somewhat odd. Who did you buy this poor lorry from? The only Dealer in the UK that I can recall in 79 in that area was dear old Brian Dixon, (and the very strong connection with Fred Sherwood, and Brians brother Oscar). She does not look like a UK spec 36,280, more like a 38,280, and only one of those was sold in the UK. So tell us pray, where did she come from, and at what price??

So did you buy your F12 from Billows? Did you part exchange your Saviem, for the F12 was a totally different high power lorry. I am intregued, as I have little personal experience of the UK Saviem set up, but I do really know how well the Turbo SM did perform in Europe, and she was a good lorry, far too many were sold for her to be anything but. And even in the UK there were a fair few sold, (more than Berliet`s TR280, David Thomason at Northwich ran over 40 of them, mostly on European Fridge work .

Pricing in the UK was set at parity with the volume seller in the UK 28tons plus market, the Leyland Buffalo. As was DAFs pricing for the DKTD. All Manufacturers/Concessionaires set their HP/Price along the parity line with the market leader,+/- 5% Standard European practice. Certainly, I am aware that the UK company wished for deeper discounts to give them a market advantage, and as we had no money to spare they did not get them!!

Maybe you just had a “Friday” example, or perhaps she had some “history” before you owned her, or perhaps she did not suit your driving style.

Well I`m away to get the Combine out, check her over, for we have fields of Wheat ready for an early cut. Shame that the Claas does not have the Turbo “whistle” of an SM, it would be real muic to my ears!!

Cheerio for now.

On page one I posted a pic of a JP 75 that I owned in the late 70,s a great wee truck all the mod cons because it served me well I bought one of the new models that came out from Stewarts of Larbert after they became known as Renault Trucks. This new model was a 10 tonner can,t remember the HP but it was turbo-ed on low profile tyres and all that jazz i think the Midliner was launched at the same time 79/80 from memory . It turned out that mine was the first one sold in the UK chassis no 000008 (might have been 7 ) ■■ anyway I had it painted and sign written courtesy of the dealer as he wanted it for the Scottish Motor Show …bargain for me !!! anyway later in the year around Christmas I don,t think the model had taken off (Calor Gas bought a couple later ) Renault wanted to do an article about it and arranged with me for photographers to come up North and do a spread and I would be looked after !!! the date was fixed so I had it washed and all neatly loaded and sheeted … when they arrived it had started snowing and did,nt let up for several days so it all made for dramatic shots etc they finished and went merrily on their way …I lost 2 days work etc and would you believe me if I said I never as much as a “thanks for coming” and not even a copy of a photo …anyway I sold up not long after and I think my 2 “Saviems” worked away for quite some time after …and theres a mug born every minute■■?

Well here we are with Mr Saviem knowing more than the people concerned, I posted my opinion and picture of a truck I bought in 1979 NEW and all of a sudden there’s an expert that knows more about it than me.My original post was my opinion of the worst truck ever,cheap components and cheap cab interior but now I have to believe they were really good as so many were sold, or is it because they were so cheap. I can’t quote figures and fuel consumption but statistics on paper never dragged 20 tons around Europe. I’m surprised I haven’t been asked for the engine number and plating details.The op was to let drivers know my thoughts on the worst truck I have driven here’s hoping nobody else has an opinion that is not acceptable to the experts.Oh and Jack Robbie was friends with the Volvo dealers at Leeds so anyone who bought a NEW volvo in the area probably bought a second hand one that had been used at A1 transport. :unamused: :unamused: :unamused: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

This SM 12 is also preserved. Fridge body is from Cazeaux in Dax south-west of France.

Alinfrance:

[zb]
anorak:
An SM280tu was about 240bhp, which would have pitched it against a 2800DKTD. What was the difference in price between those two, based on a one-off order to an owner-driver?

Based on my opinion as a driver all the numbers in the world wouldn’t make this thing pull any better.It was in its day the Skoda of the truck world, everything about it was cheap, which is what it was about for the manufacturer make profit.On paper it looked fine but with 20 tons behind it that’s a different thing, I managed to keep mine for a year doing Italy but it spent too much time in the workshop so I went Vovo F12 and that’ s another world. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Hi Alinfrance,

Outside of being underpowered, what other problems did your Saviem have?